You're Being WAY Too Nice I'm speaking as a former staffer, and never a part of Project Chanology or someone who is, after all, anonymous to the cult. I remember what it was when I was "in", and I was in FULL control of my actions no matter how absurd or mean they were. I did it because I WANTED to do it. Before it dawned on me that the whole thing was bullshit after being witness to a bunch of things that made NO sense at all, I would have been just like any of the fuckers we've seen on YouTube or some of you have seen at pickets. I'm saying the brainwashing angle is overdone. These folks are doing what they want to do. Miscavige isn't the only one who needs to go to jail.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice *shrug* An excess of niceness never hurt anyone. The justice system will mete out what Co$ staffers deserve legally, if anything (I'm assuming this thread is in reference to the 5/17 attack in SF). We don't need to be rubbing salt in their wounds, particularly because we do know that, like you, most of them are perfectly nice people who have been given perfectly wrong information.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice *meh* All I'm advocating is being realistic. Kumbaya is not exactly my style.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice While i also agree the brain washing is overdone, i still feel the majority of scilons take action because they feel they are fighting the good fight. Also, being assholes plays right into their hands. I would not give them the satisfaction. On a side note, in that sf thread, some of the comments from the camera guy werent on. I recall hearing ' you into little girls' or something along those lines. We are not scilons, that shit isint on.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice It's a tough topic. We all got into this for different reasons, some of us want the management taken down, some want the whole church to come down. In then end we are all human. The way I see it is I wont stoop to their level. I will not lower myself to their level. I belive in my cause and I will pursue it justly. But I have to admit the stuff with Bazz really got to me.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice I agree. There isn't any need to be assholes and that's not what I'm suggesting.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice Niceness can be a good weapon too. It surprises them when they expect someone to get angry, but instead they are caring.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice I know. The fact is. It wont matter if we are the ones being violent or they are, if we get a rep for being a trouble source or flashpoint for potential trouble, cops will probably clamp down to avoidthat potential trouble. Taking the absolute high road, never fighting back, etc gives us the most chance of protesting the longest. Lets not kid ourselves, eventually enough incidents will occur or be manufactured to probably drive a stake through our right to protest, the nicer we are, the longer it will be, hopefully.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice I get your point being a brainwashed culty does not absolve personal responsibility. I agree.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice But when you're "in" you look at that as weakness. Look I'm not saying "let's go bust some heads", my point is they have got to take responsibility for their actions and - as an ex and from the point of view of an ex ONLY - I think the idea of letting people off the hook because they're "brainwashed" is bogus.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice --edit-- I have personally met an ex-sci that has attempted suicide in the most painful manner, multiple times because they feel responsible for the recruitment of so many people. Staffers are being mislead and lied to. This absolves them of SOME responsibility. Beating the shit out of each other, raping someone else etc. is not the same thing.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice Seriously, I just buy into the line that the more polite we are, the more aggravating it is for Miscavige. :fuckyou:
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice Passive agressiveness is a good one "Oh, really sorry, are you completely DOWNSTAT now?" "Really sorry that you can't sell any books, will you be going to RPF?" "I feel so sorry for you, when did you last have to PTS handle because you stubbed your toe?" "I bet you feel really alone, Disconnected from your family and having KRs written up against you all the time" I like it, I have no remorse in seeing a Cultist cry because they start to realise what horrible abuse is going on. I prefer the Intellectual Checkmate to the bullbait.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice Uh, you clearly misunderstand what "brainwashing" is. Brainwashing does not, in most of its manifestations, turn someone into a drooling zombie or a twitching maniac. Only the most extreme forms of brainwashing (operant conditioning) cause that sort of overt change in a person. Most forms of brainwashing, including the subtle indoctrination used by most cults, is actually a form of "thought reform", as defined by Robert Lifton and other scholars. The way this works is not that a person is robbed of their free will, but rather that their free will is subverted and redirected to do what the controlling mind wishes it to. The person who has been thought reformed still believes that they are doing what they want to do because they want to do it, and the people watching them do it still think they're completely nuts- but the thought reformed person really believes they are doing what they want to do of their own free will. Probably the most stark example of thought reform in Scientology is the RPF. This is the whole reason the RPF works as a prison without bars. The people in it have been thought reformed to believe they cannot leave. Of their own free will they stay in the RPF, doing slave work. Of course they occasionally blow, but they usually don't, which makes finding the ones who do much easier. Thought reform is very real and definitely exists in the CoS, and yes, you probably were thought reformed very gradually over a long period of time while you were in. That's why OT3 can't be exposed to anyone pre-OT2- they haven't had enough thought reform conditioning yet to make them swallow it. I hope this helps you to get it.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice When we let these fuckers off the hook - if only in our minds - by saying "they can't help it" or "they aren't themselves" or "they're just good people who have been fed wrong information" we're losing a valuable position. If I remember my training the whole idea for Scientologists is to "be unreasonable" and "just go in there and obliterate them". And this is what you're up against. People want to talk, talk to them. I didn't have some big ass support system when I left, there was no such a thing as what we have now. There wasn't even an internet. I'm suggesting we don't use "it isn't their fault" and all the other things we say about them in planning and thinking. My opinion is, "fuck em if they can't take a joke."
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice People are responsible for their actions. But this is something they need to realize, we can't do that for them. An overdose of niceness has never hurt anyone, also that's not how SPs are from my understanding. SPs are those mean enemies wanting to prevent Scientologists and dedicated Sea Org members from saving the planet, anti-social personalities with hidden crimes. But why is this anti-social personality so nice to me? That's the sort of thought we want, right? That being viewed as weakness: Ok, but then we want to change their viewpoint, not adopt to it, right? Also, when things happen like people getting assaulted as it seems to have been the case in SF, it's very important for people to rather err on the side of niceness than on the other side. Because noone profits from escalation.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice I have no problem with this at all. Yes. I'm saying there are going to be people who cannot be salvaged, and that this is their choice. We need to steel ourselves to understand that. Magic 8 ball says "some people can't be saved."
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice I hath stepped into a time machine. Welcome to "Internet Discussion Board 1998"
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice QFT No Quarter. Let them get ugly, stand your ground, do not flinch. :anon:
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice Everyone has their own tactics and methods, as well as their own personality. I'm a 'Good Cop' in the Plymouth cultwatch group, but we also have 'Bad Cop's in our team. I'll carry on being nice to them, but what other people wish to do is entirely up to them. Just follow your instincts and morals... [Stealth Edit] Diversity is what makes us such a powerful group.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice Ok I'll admit to being VERY pissed off about the way they are treating you. I'll even admit it's been your experience, Stu, that led to this thread. OK. Guilty as charged. I admit it. But I want to bring my experience as a part of this cult - and I really hope I get some backup from some other exes right about here because I'm fairly certain they may explain it better - and the operating principle is "responsibility for one's actions." Stu with all the crap you've been through the people that have gone after you don't need to be saved - they need to be in fucking JAIL. Let them wake up to somebody interested in fucking them up the ass and see what they think about what they "pulled in" then.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice stuwyatt Not sure that's the point ITT. I think Rob's trying to say that many people are giving the culties too much of a pass for what they do; that having their thinking impaired by cult-fuckery absolves them of their actions in part or in whole somehow.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice Its a Good point and one that is worth consideration in my humble opinion. what sort of mindset are we dealing with. lets face it most of us read Elcons drivels and find nothing of value in it. so why do the culties play emporers new clothes..... EGO, the whole damn setup is designed to appeal to people with overblown Ego's. turn your self into a "superman", earn "rank" as you "rise" within the org. hells bells many of the ex scienos still cling to thier "rank" as some sort of badge of honour. Hubbard was an ego maniac and his cult sadly appeals to people of similar grubby motivation. an awful lot of the "fantasy" that is $cientology is about how scientologists are superior to the rest of the poor zombie normals, how they are the "leaders" of mankind. as justice anderson says in his report "its adherants are sadly deluded and often mentally ill" one should always where possible deal with the "mentally ill" with compassion and gentle restraint, but one should never underestimate the danger these people can cause, especially when disturbed by events that they percieve threaten them or their delusion.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice ^^THIS GOD DAMN FUCKING THING RIGHT HERE DAMMIT^^ And I finally got Happy Cat to say boo to me. My work here is DONE!
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice I've been sweet as can be , but there is flint in my eye, and I think that's very, very visible to everyone I've dealt with. I agree that there is no excuse for the behavior of many of these people. It's not my place to forgive, since I'm not the victim. That said, I hope a lot of these people go to jail or spend the rest of their lives ruing what they have done. There is an arrogance within these people (and a lot of others in society, too) that they have the prescription for everyone else, and they deserve to be in control of everyone else because they know better than everyone else. That arrogance drives me nuts. I offer information and after that, people's choices are their own, and they will suffer appropriate consequences. I believe in free will, karma, and the laws of unintended consequences. I'm not going to spend more than a bit of my time trying to "convince" Scientologists that they're part of a criminal conspiracy. I'm perfectly happy for them to figure that out from jail, from bankruptcy, and from various courtrooms. I feel a decided lack of sympathy for a large number of Scientologists, because there is an element of choice there, unethical and immoral choice. They DO bear a large part of the responsibility for their own conduct and position, in many, many cases.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice Its all cool... I agree with everyone in this thread, and understand where they are coming from. I have my own views and approaches, based on my own experiences and instincts. There is one person on the org who is an un-savable pillock who I have zero empathy for (Bag hitting ill asthmatic pervert Martin Boyce)... but even with him, I can hardly be classed as nasty - but I do bait him sometimes All I meant by my post was that everyone should follow your instincts. I feel nothing but sympathy for most of the Plymouth sci's, and I want to help them. My super-nicely approach screws up with their tech. I never rise to their baiting (except for last Wednesday). I stay calm, polite, nice, friendly... I smile - and it fucks up with their programming - and I love doing it. I can understand why they act they way they do. I cant help it. I wish I could be more nasty, but I can't. xxx
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice I'm all about passive aggressive commentary. It's polite, but insulting at the same time. <3
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice You're a better man than me. I - on the other hand - can be a real asshole.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice Robert, I have had similar thoughts but down a slightly different pathway. I will give anyone a chance. I'd be willing to give Rinder a chance. But he has to do a few things too. Like Tory, he's going to have to be a man about what has happened to his life and take responsibility for his actions. And make amends. Publicly. I see Tory doing that, I see Arnie doing that, I see Larry doing that. The exes I know have all stood up at one point or another and took responsibility for themselves. Being "brainwashed" doesn't excuse the way my ex-husband treated me. It doesn't excuse the way Tory was treated when she left. It doesn't excuse what Arnie, Graham, Keith, and the rest all went through. "I was brainwashed" doesn't take responsibility for the actions. It denies responsibility. But I see the argument for "nice" as well. We have all been very careful with protests, signs, and leaflets to insure that we aren't saying anything that can be misinterpreted. No one wants to do anything that negatively colors popular opinion against Anonymous. That would divert attention from the issues and gain us nothing. So I guess my question to you is, "What things do you think that we should do differently?" If the actions that we take can be improved by a shift in direction, then lets pull those things out and look at them and see how they fit. As an aside, I understand your anger about how Stu has been treated. I'm right there with you. I know his local crew has his back locally and we can help where he needs us to. But I think that we are likely to see more of that, not less. Unfortunately.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice Robert S I understand what you're trying to relay here and its true some people have been too naive in dealing with scilons. However you can't take a radical stance on the subject without exploring any other possibilities. They are brainwashed in a sense that even you have expressed, they basically fuck with your mentality in doing things. They change your morality on what is right/wrong like you justly were explaining and also Theta was. Although they still need to face the consequences of what they did Consider this though if you were in the scilons right now and in fact you hadn't gotten out of the cult a bunch of anon brutally messing with you wouldn't help the situation from getting you out. The target is Co$ not its members, even though looking at them you'd get a certain degree of disgust tl;dr Stay on target, don't take one abrupt side of the situation. Smart bitchiness is <3
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice I think I'm probably addressing the need to make a distinction, and that that ability to discern may be of some service to us IRL, face to face. Though the thread got off track when I probably wasn't clear about what I was saying, I think there have been enough folks piping in who read it right that it is a justifiable position. There's going to be some people we can help with niceness, and there's going to be some people who really deserve a stick in their head, twisted. Maybe I'm trying to get a handle on how we tell the difference. In the meantime I'm hearing your story in what you said, and am just shaking my head in empathy.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice You have no idea how not nice some of us are. Enturb is a place to be nice. In other places perhaps we are not so nice. The grammar alone here makes me lose valuable layers of tooth enamel but I'm nice. Ahem, anyway. In my heart? No, maybe I'm not so nice. Like Jimmy Carter, I sin in my heart, eh But that doesn't mean I wouldn't glory in Miscaviage's downfall and massive stroke from sheer apoplexy, or enjoy seeing Mike Rinder sweating like a pig on the witness stand. If someone has done shitty/illegal things I want them to feel ashamed and (as the law applies) pay their debt to society. We are not a big huggy cuddlefest. I will not say people are patsies or chumps for getting involved, possibly too deep. It is a quicksand and there is some hypnosis involved. I can't judge as you do because unlike you I don't know what I would've done in that circumstance. I do think there need to be resources for people who were totally ripped off and have no savings or idea how to function in the real world because they've lived in only a Scieno world for years and years. Not everyone on staff is a Mike Rinder. Mentioning all of that doesn't seem too productive most of the time, so I don't. STAY ON BLEEDING TARGET ALREADY.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice The Scientologists have lied for 50 years and hurt people. I don't care if they have been brainwashed or have an alien controlled thetan shoved up their ass. They are responsible for their actions, everyone is. And now they are again trying to hurt SF anons with their lies.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice I purposefully have removed the comma button from my keyboard just to piss off the goons. Glad it's working!
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice Guys, I think you're all missing a point. The destruction of the cult will be accomplished by prosecuting the many crimes of the culties. They won't "get away" with anything. The low level bozos probably won't have be thrown in jail simply because they aren't making policies. The PIlons are toast, though. DM is going to be tossed in club Fed for a long time. Enturbulation is a complex subject. I think being nice to low level drones to help them blow is a good thing. To the OSA and the other leaders, I say let them eat jail time. Relax and have some caek. The lulz are only just beginning. Trust me on this.
Re: You're Being WAY Too Nice By God you know, I'm with the Major. And I just pulled a maduro Macanudo from my humidor and I'm going to god damn smoke its ass right about here!
