WSB Radio: Narconon Debunked by its own Expert

Discussion in 'Narconon' started by The Wrong Guy, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. The Wrong Guy Member

    Narconon Debunked by its own Expert

    Posted: 5:21 p.m. Monday, Oct. 1, 2012

    By Pete Combs

    Narconon describes itself as an “alternative” drug and alcohol rehabilitation program that emphasizes communication, self-control and drug-free detoxification in accordance with the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard, the late science fiction writer and founder of the Church of Scientology.

    The program claims a “success rate” of up to 76-percent. But even the organization’s own expert court witness in the lawsuit filed by Patrick Desmond’s parents against Narconon of Georgia cast doubt on that figure.

    Speaking during a deposition in the case, Dr. Louis A. Casal was asked by plaintiff’s attorney Jeff Harris if he believe that 76-percent success ratio to be accurate. Below is part of that deposition:

    Dr. Casal: Mr. Harris, I'll be honest with you, that's a big number.

    Attorney Harris: Yeah, it's -- it's a real big number.

    Casal: It's a big number.

    Harris: And it's completely inconsistent…

    Casal: I hope it's true, but, I mean, I would need some convincing.

    Harris: Yeah, well, it's completely inconsistent with what most drug and alcohol treatment facilities experience in terms of their success rate; you'd agree with that?

    Casal: Yes, I would.

    Harris: And what is a success -- well, first of all how do we define success rate?

    Casal: Abstinence to a certain number of years, depending on how mu -- how far out you want to -- you know, complete abstinence for either six, 12 or 24 months is what I've seen in the literature, and -- and the numbers vary quite -- largely anywhere between, you know, roughly speaking, 20 to 80 percent is -- is what I've seen in –

    Harris: Depending upon how far you go out in terms of the length of time that they've abstained?

    Casal: Yes, sir. Right. How many people have -- are still abstinent after six months or 12 months or 24 months. And the numbers are all over the -- all over the map. You know, I can answer --I can give you an answer to the question I'm thinking about. I'm thinking, you know, if I had one-third of my patients sober after one year, I would be jumping for joy.

    (The extended use of a sauna and extremely high doses of niacin are also key parts of the Narconon detoxification program (see “Narconon Program Description” Clients take hundreds of milligrams of niacin and sit in the sauna for periods of up to five hours except for short break periods with the idea that the vitamin and heat together rid their bodies of the toxins associated with drug addiction. Again, during his deposition in the Patrick Desmond case, Narconon’s expert witness, Dr. Casal, admitted that was not true.)

    HARRIS: Have you looked at the Narconon literature on what Narconon contends the benefits from the sauna program are?

    CASAL: Yes, I have.

    HARRIS: And the sauna program, what Narconon contends is that in -- it in fact detoxifies your body. True?

    CASAL: True.

    HARRIS: But there's no scientific basis that you can point me to to support that contention, is there, sir?

    CASAL: You're correct.

    HARRIS: So when Narconon states that the sauna program detoxifies its students, you're not aware, as a medical doctor, of any scientific basis for that contention?

    CASAL: I agree.

    HARRIS: The vitamin regimen. You're familiar with the vitamin regimen?

    CASAL: Yes, sir.

    HARRIS: What -- do you have an opinion about whether or not the vitamin regimen is effective at treating addiction?

    CASAL: I believe that it has very likely no bearing whatsoever on the treatment of addiction.

    Source, and open comments:

    • Winner Winner x 13
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  2. Anonymous Member

    Happy with this^^^
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. The Wrong Guy Member

    • Like Like x 4
  4. The Wrong Guy Member

    • Like Like x 4
  5. grebe Member

    That doctor was paid by the Narconon side? And he said the vitamins did nothing? Lulz.
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Anonymous Member

    Hubbard quack treatments KILL PEOPLE!
    • Agree Agree x 4
  7. grebe Member

    Now we can troll the Scientologists with, "Hey even your own doctor admits that Hubbard's vitamin regimen has "no bearing whatsoever on the treatment of addiction."

    You can say Hubbard's quack remedies kill people. But just be aware that this is not an easy claim to defend scientifically. It's not enough to list people who have died unexpectedly. You also have to show that a control group would not have had as many deaths.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. rickybobby Member

    I don't think this case has to do as much with the specific treatments offered, it's more about the standards of care, due diligence and all that stuff. I can tell you that the states take patients of any medical facility commiting suicide verrrry seriously. If you have a patient that is a demonstrated suicide risk and you don't monitor them properly, or have systems in place to monitor them properly, you are asking for the state to swoop in and close your butt down. I can't believe any MD would have anything to do with any of this. It's actually shocking how unprofessional these operations are. And I am not easily shocked.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Missfit Member

    When you're talking about recovery from addiction, there are zero ways of determining an accurate success rate. Why? Because people lie. Besides joining $ci or continuing to work at the CON after , how do you imagine they contact people for how they are doing 6 months-5years later? I was in a private program 11 years ago and after about 6 months of being out, they stopped all follow up on me. The people they write about in their literature are people who have chosen to stay in contact and other than that they can only "guarantee" any success rate up to the point they keep in contact. Not to mention, maybe people who go to rehab do not want to go back so they will assure people they are rehabilitated to not stir the pot. Also, testimonies of treatment are IRRELEVANT on discharge because treatment is NOT REAL LIFE. You are institutionalized with other addicts with little to no contact with outside forces. You're happy to get the fuck out when you leave and most people will say whatever they think people want to hear to leave.

    I can say from my personal experience I know of maybe 2 people from the 36 I was in treatment with that to this day haven't touched alcohol or any drugs since. I know of 4 over doses and two suicides of patients since completing treatment. The rest of us? We go out for drinks on a yearly basis to catch up and while we might all be a little ( ok, A lot) crazy, the other 28 of us are competent NON SOBER adults. We all swore up and down to never touch a drug again and we all swore up and down by the program upon completion. Yet the actual percentage of sober people after a year of treatment is 5.5%. This is a top notch program too, you stay for over 8 months and they usually send you to another program after. Granted, this was for teens and not just a rehab, but that proves the point even more. Teens, with tough emotional and family lives, who don't have the same access to alcohol and probably no real financial means to pay for the hard stuff, who are IN TREATMENT for more than half a year who most go on to other programs for longer periods of time after are only a 5.5% "success" rate. Had you taken that poll 6mos- year after completed treatment, you'd still only be looking at a fraction of people. To claim anything over 20% for ANY PLACE is insane!
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  10. Intelligence Member

    This ^^^ is a good analysis indeed. Anless you keep the graduates in a controlled environment,
    with strict m onitorying DAILY with tests, it's very difficult to determine ACCURATE stats. Once
    the Grads are out in the community, it's ner impossible to obtain ACCURATE stats.

    Over 20% success rate would be high, but feaseable.

    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Ogsonofgroo Member

    Of interest?
    <_< >_> ........ bwahahahahahahaha!

  12. Quentinanon Member

    I think the strategic response by organised scientology will be to gradually pull the plug on secular drug rehab front groups and put the program under religious cloaking. We have already seen an instance of that in southern California at an org.
  13. rickybobby Member

    What is the name of the program? I feel I should know this already. I would like to become more informed.

    I think that would be a mistake, because deaths will occur, they will be investigated, and then the church won't be able to distance themselves. Kids die in drug rehab, PEOPLE PAY ATTENTION.

    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Missfit Member

    I feel like I'm pulled in two directions with this. One part of me says " Screw that, close that shit down for good." because of my background in the field of rehabilitation and the other part of me is saying " At least they are giving people a choice in the matter." Yes, they are still cloaking fraudulent rehabilitation methods and I would go to great lengths to make sure no one went there but it's still allowing people to decide ahead of time if they find this a suitable method for their recovery. Might seem contradictory to my activism, but my main focus has always been on the teen industry, minors who have no say. These are adults who mostly have the ability to do some research. A quick google search would show the CON linked 100% to $ci and I bet this forum would pop up in the top of the search. If people read this or any info on $ci and still want to go, Xenu help them.

    I'm still super iffy on it though, just my first reaction.
  15. Quentinanon Member

    Drug rehab is subsumed under medical treatment, so scientology should not be doing drug rehab AT ALL, front group or church cloaked. They should get shut down. It matters not if an adult knows in advance of what the program entails. Unless that adult has medical training, they have no means to evaluate the validity or safety of Hubbard drug rehab quackery.
    • Agree Agree x 4
  16. Anonymous Member

    ^@Missfit, these people have bought up over 160 domain names and are listed on the SAMSHA website. So a parent or loved one searching for a rehab will quite often find them in their first search.

    Also because they are not a legitimate rehab they will tell the prospective client come straight away. Just bring $10,000USD, cash, check, credit card, if they don't live in the area no problem put them on a plane they will pick up the client.

    Many of their onsite (usually 1 per week for 3hrs) doctors are Chiropractors, the staff's certification is done by a diploma/mill agency CARF. Also quite a few staff get clean take a 1 week course and are certified.

    They dump patients at airports, bus stations, homeless shelters etc..

    There are no peer-reviewed studies on any of their rehab procedures there are published excerpts on the dangers of high-niacin intake especially those with compromised liver function.

    The list goes on and on people get taken for $30,000 with lies and deception this is not a legitimate rehab they just fly under the radar.
    • Agree Agree x 3
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  17. Intelligence Member

    There is something that has only "skimmed" the news about this predatory cult. A little
    has bee mentioned on NBC Rock-Center and a few other newscasts, but no solid
    dox to back-up the "He Said - She Said", concerning staff trading drugs for sex,
    staff-patient sex at staff apartments on weekends, and on and on.

    As NN Grad day (Fridays), approached, I could see which staff were eyeing patients
    and sure enough, within days/weeks, another patient moves into a staff's bed. Three
    staff-patient pregnancies, miscariages, and even one sent away for an abortion!

    Of course these would only be third-party stories unless one has emails directly from
    the sources, which I do - - and have submitted to authorities. Some I have withheld for now.

    Last week I completed a book chapter Pros & Cons of “Co-Ed” Addiction Treatment.

    But, the majority of these "co-ed" drug rehabs have a ZERO tolerance to any
    inter-relational romance or sexual contact, and being staffed with therapists
    with university degrees in behaviour and addiction treatment, are well versed
    in monitoring, counselling. and thus preventing disaster when they see potential

    The opposite is Narconon. They have NO quailified counsellers in addiction treatment; many staff being recent graduates themselves. The "Eye-Candy" Grad, being handed their program
    grad cert on Friday, indeed looks deliciously sweet to many staff.

    Many emails confirming what I saw, I will quote in my book.

    I know of no other rehabs that hire patients immediately upon graduating and
    also NONE that tolerate Staff having a romantic, live-in relationship with a recent grad.

    Now that victims and staff have come forward from other Narconon's, telling the
    same story as mine, has less credibility saying "we did not know - or claim the event as an isolated incident".

    I had previously decided not to include the names of the predators in my book
    and their predatory behaviour, but now that OSA has coerced my daughter to
    throw her libelous hat into the ring of Dead Agenting, all gloves are off every
    finger - - I will tell all, with names and DOX!

    Now back to work:)

    • Like Like x 3
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  18. The Wrong Guy Member

    Today, the reporter who wrote the articles quoted above posted a follow-up.

    Narconon of Georgia Investigation Part Two |

    By Pete Combs

    Yesterday, WSB introduced us to the story of 28-year old Patrick Desmond, who came to the Atlanta area from Florida in hopes of kicking his drug and alcohol habit at an alternative rehab facility called Narconon of Georgia. But what his parents were told was a secure inpatient treatment center turned out to be plagued with drugs and drinking. In the end, Patrick overdosed and died in June of 2008.

    This morning, in the second part of his investigation, Pete Combs tells us Narconon of Georgia is accused of posing as an inpatient drug treatment program when it was nothing of the sort. Instead, the Desmonds say Narconon executives lied and faked documents in an effort to lure high-paying patients like their son.

    Listen to today's report here

    We’re working with our news partners on this story. You can watch more about Narconon tonight on Channel 2 Action News at 5 and 6, and read more on the story tomorrow at .


    There are links to more of Pete Combs' work on
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  19. Missfit Member

    I absolutely agree, I was just looking at it from a first amendment standpoint if they openly stated their facilities as "Scientology run" and "religious" and in NO WAY support or condone anything that happens at the Con. I was meekly hoping that would be enough to sway peoples decisions against it.

    this is how it plays in my pot-head:
    -Con openly connects it's religious affiliation with $ci
    -No real peer reviewed documentation showing Con isn't effective, people continue to go
    -Shit continues to spiral, people don't get well
    -More media attention, possible criminal charges, under the cults name...nowhere to hide
    -The H bombs are lowered into the volcanos...err...wait...wrong fairy tale
    -Finally enough proof for police/courts/government bust this shit wide open
    - we all grab hands and jump for joy in a field of wildflowers ( not the one at Gold that DM made for TC tho...although that would be ironic.)
    • Funny Funny x 3
  20. Anonymous Member

    I think he may be referring to '"Sober Living in Orange County". It si not even a front group, it is the Purification Rundown open to non-cultists at the Orange County Scientology Org.

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