Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Anyone has seen the insurance file about this on wikileaks ?
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs this leak is aswome i hope lot´s of ppl check it that this war is a shame for the usa
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Taliban: We'll behead WikiLeaks informers | Mail Online Gee wikileaks, thanks for publishing this information that is so vital to governmental transparency.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs He's a sanctimonious self righteous anarchaist who is the public face of a website. He's no hero. He's not a vilian either to be sure.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs You didn't get my sarcasm. He's not a hero. But I wonder how he feels having a LOT of blood on his hands because he doesn't like George Bush. I wonder how he feels being personally responsible for having people killed. Its not like its abstract - they are going to be killed because he's douchebag.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs I believe we have a winner for the most unfounded unsourced and unevidenced post of the day.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs [ame=http://vimeo.com/13809874]SBS Dateline (01/8/10) - Inside Wikileaks and Julian Assange on Vimeo[/ame] SBS Dateline WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange stunned the world this week when he leaked more than 90,000 secret Afghan war files. Dateline's Mark Davis was filming as Assange prepared to release his massive cache of highly classified US documents and as he weathered the media storm that followed. The documents reveal hundreds of civilian casualties, secret hit squads to track and kill Taliban leaders, a steep increase in Taliban attacks, and collusion between Pakistan's intelligence service and the Taliban leadership. Davis first connected with the mysterious whistleblower in Iceland, Norway, Sweden and Australia for a story broadcast in May, called The Whistleblower. This time he has been filming in London where Assange was working with journalists from The Guardian, The New York Times and Germany's Der Spiegel. The release of the documents has rocked the White House and drawn comment from Australia's Prime Minister Julia Gillard. Some of the classified reports refer to Australia's military operations in Afghanistan. In a move that will further shake governments and top military brass around the world, WikiLeaks says they have delayed the release of a further 15,000 reports, but these will eventually be released in full.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Marc Thiessen, G.W. Bush's ex speech writer, wants the military to hunt Assange down and also arrest all of his "co-conspirators": washingtonpost.com fucking LOL
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs They're gonna backtrace him. Consequences will never be the same!
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Without calling any of you in particular stupid, nor implying that being wrong in this case makes you stupid --I would like to point out that I am seeing far to many uneducated opinions repeating what is being said everywhere, except for what is factually true. I was compelled to post the following --beware that after the list of facts this post will be my opinion on this issue, and that i am not implying that if you disagree with the latter that you are stupid. I would request from you that if you are found yourself to be disagreeing with what i wrote, to please grace yourself with the courtesy of not neglecting, ignoring or dismissing the following facts without counter evidence. The leaks in question are also known as: general incident logs. The White House was offered to help with a redaction of the full set, but did not respond. Contrary to popular allegations no one has at this time been able to point to a report that contains information that could clearly endanger informants. Roughly 15.000 reports were held back for further investigation, as those 15.000 are not incident reports, but intelligence reports. My opinion: So the White House was offered to help with a redaction of the leaks, but did not respond allegedly as not to add legitimacy to the American army's negligence. By the latter i mean: effectives keeping intelligence records in the general incident log. Wikileaks has held back all reports mentioning human intelligence in order to redact them as to protect the informants from amongst others the taliban. Any names therefore appearing in the released documents imply a very serious lapse in the U.S. documentation system, even though that doesn't change Wikileaks implications i think it is unfair that the criticism goes into their sole direction, remember that about anyone in the US army has clearance for incident reports, why were there over 15000 human intelligence reports in those logs. If wikileaks acted irresponsibly why is barely anyone complaining about the American army's negligence. What about the White House trying to silently sweep this under a rug? What happened to this promise of change and added transparency in governance?
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs The dialog around this has been extremely distressing. It seems we only have morons like Thessian writing and saying the US should violate the sovereignty of its allies to arrest Assange and somehow destroy all of the machines that make up wikileaks. And of course on the other end we have a chorus of equally brainless cheerleaders caught up in the romantic image of a small group of plucky hackers sticking it to the man. What I haven't seen is any reasonable discussion of what has just happened. Julian Assange is no hero, nor is he a villain. The same is true of the collaborative project called Wikileaks. We have seen distressingly little discussion of the lack of transparency regarding the war in Afghanistan, nor have we seen discussion of troubling and maybe illegal activities by coalition forces long rumored and now confirmed. At the same time we have not seen reasoned dialog about the leaking of this sort of information. We have people calling for traitors to be hanged or people who refuse to entertain the idea that not all information should be public. Mr Assange's dismissive and child responses to valid questions about potential harm to innocents from the release is distressing as it indicates a lack of concern on the part of Wikileaks (in so much as he is the only representative of the group speaking publicly at the moment). In the end only history will be able to determine the impact of this leak, but we need to be discussing it now. Sites like Wikileaks are important and vitally needed. But at the same time, we need to really think about what we're doing and ask difficult questions as we try to determine where the line is between holding elites accountable and protecting the security and privacy of individuals.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Some people have tried to point out that it is interesting to read that it is being claimed by the taliban that both them and america are being played by pakistan, now it is (and will be) provable. The questions that remains is why america would fund this war from both sides? The us funding both sides can be interpreted as either incompetent or extremely malicious. What is your take on it? Wikileaks has not published every detail / log entry, does that fit your criteria of "entertaining the idea of what should and should not be made public"? After reading the first paragraph you wrote i was under the impression you were going to be neutral on the issue, i'll thus await your take on the governmental negligence in this whole ordeal. Difficult question: Would you mind answering my previous post since you seem to have ignored it in its entirety?
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Would be awesome to see them try, the fallout would be huge! And if they failed, I wonder who the US could trade for a couple of arrested US spooks in Iceland?
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Well I'd point out that I said we should also be discussing what the government has been doing. But it's cool if you want to ignore that. You are also right that I should have given wikileaks more credit for the restraint that they did show thus far. However the fact remains that Assange, speaking on behalf of the organization does not appear to take seriously the ramifications and potential harm relating from what they have released. I'm not even necessarily saying that the leak has caused harm- it's the refusal to grapple with the very real possibility of such harm that I find distressing. I would also mention that wikileaks has indicated that it plans on releasing the remainder of the documents they have in the future.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs I think there's been tons, but it all ends up at the same place, presenting much the same kinds of data, and asking the same questions, and so doesn't end up getting quoted everywhere like the more extreme hate/love stuff. I think there are no answers at the moment. No conclusions a reasoned debate can lead to. I hope WL continues to learn from it's mistakes and the criticisms made with each major release. Certainly, the non-redaction of informers was a serious error, but the hypocrisy of those who merely shrug at poor decisions leading to 'inevitable' civilian war casualties saying WL or Assange have 'blood on their hands' turns my stomach.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs I agree with you for the most part. And certainly it is hypocritical for the military to shrug off civilian casualties while talking about Assange having blood on his hands. At the same time, you can't dismiss the criticism just because the source of that criticism is being hypocritical. And really, this particular incident is just something that I think should serve as a catalyst for a broader discussion about these issues and about where responsibility and discretion factor into the need to hold governments accountable. Mr Assange's own displeasure at the blood on your hands statement is a bit hollow considering that he himself acknowledged these issues in an interview with the New Yorker, even expressing concern that Wikileaks "may have blood on it's hands." The interveiw was conducted before this leak. WikiLeaks and Julian Paul Assange : The New Yorker And beyond governmental malfesiance there are other issues we should be talking about now- hypothetical situations that should be considered in advance. Say you have a high profile rape trial and someone leaks police reports or sealed evidence. Does the public have a right to know about that information and how the police conducted their investigation? What about the victim who may not want a detailed account of her rape placed online? I'm just saying we should be talking about these things now.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Then lets discuss what the government(s) of america could improve upon. As for the rest i said... lets hear it from the hourses mouth, please do not take it for blind fanboyism, i do not take every word assange says for true and base my opinions on my own observations. After they have been meticulously reviewed and accordingly redacted of identifying information.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs I was referring to the comments in the article I posted: I think you're right, I should give wikileaks more credit for what concern they have shown- but there remains a dismissive attitude towards consequences which is detrimental. And I should also make it clear that I do not think it is only the responsibility of Wkikleaks to have these discussions. We all should be talking about it. Accountability is also important, but that is another discussion I guess.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Assange on harm minimisation efforts: YouTube - WikiLeaks Assange on Lateline with Tony Jones (1of2) and on the 'taliban hitlist' allegation and whether he is a publicity whore: YouTube - WikiLeaks chief Julian Assange talks to RT
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs I respect a lot of the opinions expressed in this thread. And I realize that the US/NATO should have some criticism. But, the US was attacked from by a group harbored in Afghanistan, that was being protected by a government that was NOT acknowledged by the UN, and the US was nice enough not to wage total war. Maybe people should take a look at how things were handled in the past and understand that "Oh shit; this isn't nearly as bad as it could be". If the US would have been serious about it they would have carpet bombed the country; every square inch; for a 2 months before hand, not giving a shit about civilian casualties and then sent in a clean force. Civilians die in wars. That is why wars suck. Maybe the governing force shouldn't have been harboring a hostile force against the US. And by the way.... they had a month to give them up before the US went in. Oh well. I'm done. Maybe the rest of you should think about it.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Maybe the situation is a lot more complicated and nuanced than you are prepared to acknowledge.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Maybe its as nuanced and complicated as I think it is and you are just not acknowledging what I just said. Why is the US still there?
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Maybe Vietnam? We haven't even had 1/25th the causalities. Fuck it, we got people to spare and we can fuck them up a lot worse than we have....
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs An example of something that may put operations in risk: 23 JAN 2008 TF ROCK KLE (District Gov., ANA PL Commander, District Chief) -- Afghan War Diaries explorer This report mentions the names of the individuals, that the named US LT thinks are Anti-coalition military. These are people he met with, how will they be able to meet again now that they know the guy they met with suspects them of being ACM?
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs The idea behind the leaks, imo, is to make such events public record instead of being shoved under a carpet. I agree to an extent that some information is secret for a very good reason, and leaking such information could be harmful to one or more people. However, in the situation of "Collateral Murder", the significance of the event is that the family of those who were killed kept calling and calling for an investigation; family members in the US tried filing a FOIA on the incident, only to be turned away and ignored. Same for when they tried to get some kind of compensation. The leak helped to expose what happened so that hopefully the family could make some progress, as the military didn't issue even so much as an apology, since as far as they're concerned, "nothing to see here, move along now."
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs I can picture Al Qaeda members justifying their doings with the same rationale.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs I'm enjoying the new sleestak/guy fawks Anonymous avatar. Also the last comment was completely retarded.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs The justification stated by Bin Laden tends to be along the lines of: http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ubl-fbis.pdf
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs You know what's odd. The whole islam thing is a sham. Reminds me of other well meaning people who get into cults and then end up strapping on a dynamite belt and blowing up their perceived enemies. An act usually done figuratively not literally. Any ways this is the fundamental issue with the current afghani war. At best it should be like 4 marine sniper teams and some UAVs killing targets of opportunity. Calling it a war makes it seem like you can win when in reality why would you ever want to conquer Afghanistan and then how on earth once you "conquered" it would you ever keep it. Unlike Iraq which is one of the oldest civilizations on earth with traditions and heritage much older then Islam, Afghanistan is basically the back woods of Tennessee except with less banjos playing. That Shiraa law gives them cover to rape their sister is just a bonus. I'm glad these leaks are public, I think it's about time the Obama sheeple, McCain war hawks and the Sarah Palin lap dogs wake out of the slumber if even to be pissed that their dirty little secrets are now public and perhaps at some point as the US burns around them in economic chaos they realize that the days of the American Empire need to come to a close or at the very least be rethought. Any ways carry on!
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs A voice of reason even if I don't agree with you. Afghan and Iraq aren't the same. One was a war of choice and the other was retaliation. The question right now would be whether or not pulling out of the retaliation war is smart. The other thing is the leaks around that war. Two separate issues. Another issue is the question of the motive of the leaks. I don't think they are honestly benevolent as much as they are malicious. If they were leaking shit about Iraq and the US being dumbasses then fine. But they aren't. They are leaking a specific period of time for a war that we didn't pick. They shot first. And then people come along and say "Al Qaeda members justifying their doings with the same rationale." when our military are trying NOT to kill innocent civilians when their game plan is to kill as many innocent people as they can? A group that would love to oppress and screw everyone's rights as much as they possibly could if they had the chance. I wonder what people are thinking. I wonder what they are trying to accomplish. I wonder what they want.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs I'm not saying it was (or wasn't) a primary factor in choosing a 'war of retaliation' against a country rather than a targeted mission to take out a few terrorist leaders, but folk should be cognisant of the value of Afghanistan as an gas and oil route from the Caspian and Turkmenistan to 'western friendly' ports. See for example: JURIST - Cohn: The Deadly Pipeline War: U.S. Afghan Policy Driven By Oil Interests BBC NEWS | South Asia | Central Asia pipeline deal signed
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs I said it earlier in this thread. The country had already been overthrown by a group (the Taliban) that the UN did not acknowledge. The world (not just the Us) was nice enough not to screw them to begin with in the mid 90's. Then they harbored a terrorist group that attack the US. Then the US gave them a month to give them up. They didn't. Guess what's going to happen. And if you think we should leave and let the same thing happen again your're retarded.
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs And I said it earlier in the thread: Perhaps things are more nuanced than you are prepared to consider. If you can somehow conclude I think that based on that post, then, well:
Re: Wikileaks, Afghanistan: The War Logs Why hasn't Julian and Wikileaks leaked any Taliban or Al Queada dox? Let's get some equal time.
