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Whois Narconon Arrowheads hired gun Andrea G. Barthwell M.D.

Discussion in 'Narconon' started by patriot75, May 26, 2014.

  1. patriot75 Member

    Dr. Barthwell was hired by Narconon Arrowhead in order to write an evaluation of the quackery program. Also, it would not surprise me one bit in NN AH and NN Int. attempt to use Dr. Barthwell as an "expert" in the ongoing cases in Oklahoma.

    Been doing a little digging and sharing what I found. If anyone could assist in finding any direct Scientology connection with her or any of her family members that you will find listed below would be extremely helpful to all the cases against AH. (WISE, THTH, APS, Artists for Human Rights...etc)
    Andrea Barthwell.jpg
    Here is a little bg from her wiki page first:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Barthwell

    A little write up after initial investigation:

    After doing some research into Andrea Grubb Barthwell, M.D, I found some interesting things. As far as I can tell, she would not be called in to Narconon Arrowhead to do checkups, I suspect she’s there to review and defend their program in a legal case or cases, even if only as a non witness adviser. It is not uncommon for Scientology to hire big guns for their legal defenses and she is most defiantly that. Yet her track record does open some interesting questions about support from her in contrast to the real medical world that she's documented working in. For example, one of the most interesting documents I located was the PODAT guide (Principles Of Drug Addiction Treatment 3rd Edition) by the National Institute on Drug Abuse, National Institutes of Health, U.S. Department of Human Services. In this guide Dr. Barthwell (Encounter Medical Group) is thanked for her review of it. I would find it odd that she would argue in support of a Narconon program over the contents of this guide. Link - http://www.ndcrc.org/sites/default/files/podat_0_0.pdf

    The guide makes no references to toxins being stored in fat, or a restimulation. In fact the reasons people take drugs differ greatly according to the two philosophies as well as to how to treat addiction. Narconon makes no reference to it being a disease of the brain as does the PODAT guide.


    The PODAT guide talks about an effective treatment including 1) Understanding brain function and behavior; 2) No single treatment is effective for everyone; 3) Treatment needs to address medical, psychological, social, vocational and legal problems; 4) Remaining in treatment for an adequate period both in and out patient; 5) Medication is an important part of treatment for many people; 6) Regular assessment and modifications to the treatment plan as needed and 7) Medically assisted Detox as the first stage of treatment, and other stark contrast contradictions to the Narconon program.

    A big one I saw was (#12) in the book, it acknowledges lapses in treatment and it makes no reference to people who laps, being dumped at a bus stop or motel, but makes reference to monitoring and making adjustments to their plan as needed.

    I would also add that to my knowledge, Narconon does not test for HIV, Hepatitis B & C or other infectious diseases. Considering that we know staff at Narconon was having sex with students and people were sitting in close proximity to each other in a sauna, dipping sweat, I have to wonder if testing for these diseases is a part of their program as suggested by the PODAT guide (#13).

    I again want to stress that there are so many elements of this guide that are missing from the Narconon program but also completely contradicting it. I cannot not see how anyone can suggest the two have anything in common, it is like one of them was written by real doctors in the 21st century and the other by a science fiction writer out of the 1950’s. I wonder how Dr Barthwell is going to spin this?

    I would recommend trying to locate papers that she has written as they will have been peer reviewed and no doubt not reflect the Narconon approach. Dr Bathwell, cannot escape her past endorsements of excepted programs and the lack of any prior acknowledgment of Narconon on her behalf. It smells like a case of her being bought. I would love to know how Dr Barthwell would respond to being shown the Narconon Staff Course book where it says on page #3: "(NOTICE) No broad medial acceptance has been sought by L. Ron Hubbard. This book represents a record of researches and results noted by Mr.Hubbard (not a doctor). It cannot be construed as a recommendation of medical treatment or medication and it is not professed as a physical handling of bodies nor is any claim made to that effect. There are NO medical recommendations or claims to it.”

    Dr. Barthwell was listed as a trustee of the Addiction Recovery Foundation on their site in 2008, she is not currently listed as far as I can tell, did she have a falling out? That site had promoted NARCONON at one point. I noticed the Narconon page only comes up under a Google search but not on their internal directory, did someone disable the search function for Narconon on their page, scrubbing info? None the less it is there and has a reference number like all the other listings on their site, it is Ref 40199. I did a WHOIS search and did confirm that the web address does belong to the Addiction Recovery Foundation. One can hardly call her a impartial voice if she has a tie like that.
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    I have also thought it might be worth mentioning that her, her husband (Dr. David A. Bathwell) and Dr Wootan are all listed on the internet as doctors who subscribe Suboxone. I cannot tell you that they requested this promotion but I can say, I don’t see any other types of drugs being associated with them in the same way. This drug is a synthetic opium to wean people off of stronger drugs. This is a big No No to Narconon and their websites regularly condemn its use. I have a feeling that this is an acceptable but in the closet drug for the hard cases at Narconon. If true, it would open the door to hypocrisy to what they teach vs what they let go on.


    http://www.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-david-barthwell-xhhfx

    She had a business in Northern VA that looks like it went under EMGlobal LLC. Her office address is shared Verge Studios a company run by a relative. I tend to believe these might be signs of money issues worth looking in to.

    Verge Studios:
    David Barthwell
    David_Barthwell.jpg
    Art Director
    David Barthwell, the founding principal and creative director of Verge Studios, was born in Chicago, Illinois. He studied art at Yale University, graduating in 2004 with honors and distinction in the major. His work is strongly influenced by his classical fine arts training in drawing, painting, photography, color, and composition.

    Beyond art, he has always cultivated a strong interest in sociology, psychology, art history, and their intersections. His curiosity and balance of formal and autodidactic education has provided him with the ability to adapt to a wide range of mediums, visual styles, and communication techniques. An avid technology enthusiast since early childhood, David is not only comfortable with the tools of the design trade, but with programming and building his own systems.

    He has worked on many types of projects - both as a team member and as a lead - ranging from magazines to branding to user interface design.

    Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/david-barthwell/5/358/777
    David Barthwell Co-founder of Belaprint, President of Verge Studios San Francisco Bay Area Graphic Design. Linkage http://vergegraphics.com/about-us
    David Barthwell Verge Studios.PNG

    Dr. Andrea Barthwell's businesses:
    Two Dreams Corporate Offices
    Rush Medical Office Building
    610 S. Maple Ave.
    Suite 3400
    Oak Park, IL, 60304
    (708) 613-4750
    contact@twodreams.com
    http://www.twodreams.com/

    Two Dreams Outer Banks
    Located in Corolla, NC
    (708) 613-4750
    contact@twodreamsouterbanks.com
    http://www.twodreams.com/

    Encounter Medical Group (EMG)
    610 S. Maple Ave. STE 3400
    Oak Park IL, 60304
    FB https://www.facebook.com/pages/Encounter-Medical-Group/393089134099873

    Dr. Andrea Barthwell's Social Media Links:FB https://www.facebook.com/drbarthwell
    Wordpress http://drbarthwell.wordpress.com/
    Twitter https://twitter.com/@dragb
    Linkedin http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrea-barthwell/5/11b/354
    Newsletter Dream Journal Newsletter
    Relatives:
    Andrea G. Barthwell M.D.
    Matthew G. Barthwell
    Dr. David A. Barthwell
    This addy comes up for all of them:
    815 Lathrop Ave River Forest, IL 60305-1446

    Also Alison Barthwell:
    Human Resources Associate at Treatment Partners, LLC
    Chicago, Illinois (Greater Chicago Area)
    Health, Wellness and Fitness
    linkedin http://www.linkedin.com/in/ambarthwell
    Treatment Partners LLC
    610 S Maple Ave Oak Park, IL 60304

    Attached Files:

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  2. DeathHamster Member

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  3. patriot75 Member

    https://whyweprotest.net/community/...on-narconon-front-groups.107527/#post-2245347
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  4. TorontosRoot Member

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  5. Sekee Member

    More here: http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/andrea-barthwell-caught-red-handed/
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  6. The Internet Member

    OK, just some Google stuff. She’s involved with something called, “Hythiam."

    9/8/05 LOS ANGELES, Sep 08, 2005 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Hythiam,Inc. (NASDAQ: HYTM), a healthcare services management company that delivers to treatment providers proprietary administrative services and physiological protocols designed to treat substance dependence, today announced The Honorable Andrea Grubb Barthwell, former Deputy Director for Demand Reduction of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), has joined Hythiam's Board of Directors. Dr. Barthwell has also served as Presidentof the American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM), the nation's medical specialty society dedicated to...

    http://article.wn.com/view/2005/09/08/Andrea_Barthwell_MD_Appointed_to_Hythiam_Board_of_Directors_/

    “Proprietary” makes me think “AdminTech,” cuz wai proprietary admin in a science based industry?

    Hythiam later became “Catasys.” But it used to be "ALASKA FREIGHTWAYS.” WTF, does not sound very medical.

    COMPANY DATA:
    COMPANY CONFORMED NAME: CATASYS, INC.
    CENTRAL INDEX KEY: 0001136174
    STANDARD INDUSTRIAL CLASSIFICATION: SERVICES-MISC HEALTH & ALLIED SERVICES, NEC [8090]
    IRS NUMBER: 880464853
    STATE OF INCORPORATION: DE
    FISCAL YEAR END: 1231

    FILING VALUES:
    FORM TYPE: D
    SEC ACT: 1933 Act
    SEC FILE NUMBER: 021-211824
    FILM NUMBER: 14600515

    BUSINESS ADDRESS:
    STREET 1: 11601 WILSHIRE BLVD.
    STREET 2: SUITE 950
    CITY: LOS ANGELES
    STATE: CA
    ZIP: 90025
    BUSINESS PHONE: 310 444 4300

    MAIL ADDRESS:
    STREET 1: 11601 WILSHIRE BLVD.
    STREET 2: SUITE 950
    CITY: LOS ANGELES
    STATE: CA
    ZIP: 90025

    FORMER COMPANY:
    FORMER CONFORMED NAME: HYTHIAM, INC.
    DATE OF NAME CHANGE: 20101029

    FORMER COMPANY:
    FORMER CONFORMED NAME: HYTHIAM INC
    DATE OF NAME CHANGE: 20031003

    FORMER COMPANY:
    FORMER CONFORMED NAME: ALASKA FREIGHTWAYS INC
    DATE OF NAME CHANGE: 20010305

    http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1136174/000113617414000002/0001136174-14-000002.txt
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  7. The Internet Member

  8. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    They hire her. She comes and reviews the program and calls it shit, they don't put her on the stand and the other side can't hire her. They locked up an expert.
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  9. The Internet Member

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  10. The Internet Member

    But there must be thousands of doctors who could say Narconon is bullshit.
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  11. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    Right but she has all the credentials- prez of addiction medicine etc. They just kept her from being a witness for the other side. This goes on all the time with medical experts
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  12. The Internet Member

    Seems a waste of time and money. Tie up one person, sure. Still there are a thousand others.

    This doctor has honors you can buy for cash dollar. Also campaign contributions. No surprise as Narconon is BS and any doctor lending support is probably brain damaged.
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  13. The Internet Member

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  14. DeathHamster Member

    Or maybe .. The Price is Right!?

    The deputy doctor for the New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project ended up busted for selling web prescriptions of serious drugs.
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  15. DeathHamster Member

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  16. This is hysterical, and is probably why she got the BOOT from the white house job:


    'Lewd' Past Mars Barthwell's Ill. Senate Overtures

    Published July 15, 2004
    Associate Press

    WASHINGTON – A potential Republican candidate for the Senate seat from Illinois — where the party's nominee withdrew over sex club allegations — engaged in "lewd and abusive behavior" while she served as a top official in the White House drug policy office, an internal inquiry found last year.
    In front of her staff, Andrea Grubb Barthwell (search) made repeated comments about the sexual orientation of a staff member and used a kaleidoscope to make sexually offensive gestures, according to the findings of a March 19, 2003, "hostile workplace memorandum" prepared by drug policy office staff. The Associated Press obtained the memorandum.
    ...
    Barthwell said she has not decided whether to pursue the Senate seat, but she said the complaint should not be a factor in her candidacy.
    ....
    Barthwell, a Chicago-area physician and a political unknown, resigned last week as deputy director for demand reduction in the Office of National Drug Control Policy to explore pursuing the nomination.

    The report says her staff had "the highest regard for Dr. Barthwell's credentials and knowledge, but ... almost uniformly stated their fear and discomfort with what they consider to be unusual behavior patterns and displays of temper."
    The lewd and abusive behavior finding stemmed from a Dec. 19, 2002, staff gathering. Barthwell made comments about a staff member's sexual orientation after the staff member misspoke in an earlier conversation, the memorandum said.
    ...
    Lots of juicy details of what she actually SAID is in the article below:
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/2004/07/15/lewd-past-mars-barthwell-ill-senate-overtures/
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  17. Here are four papers she co-authored with others, number 4 looks very promising:



    • ELL, BARTHWELL[Investigator], BARTHWELL, ANDREA[Editor].

    Results: 4
    Select item 204079731.
    Substance use and women's health.
    Kay A, Taylor TE, Barthwell AG, Wichelecki J, Leopold V.
    J Addict Dis. 2010 Apr;29(2):139-63. doi: 10.1080/10550881003684640.
    PMID:

    20407973

    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Related citations
    Select item 197833832.
    Risk management and post-marketing surveillance for the abuse of medications acting on the central nervous system: expert panel report.
    Johanson CE, Balster RL, Henningfield JE, Schuster CR, Anthony JC, Barthwell AG, Coleman JJ, Dart RC, Gorodetzky CW, O'Keeffe C, Sellers EM, Vocci F, Walsh SL.
    Drug Alcohol Depend. 2009 Dec 1;105 Suppl 1:S65-71. doi: 10.1016/j.drugalcdep.2009.08.006. Epub 2009 Sep 23.
    PMID:

    19783383

    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Free PMC Article

    Related citations
    Select item 197833813.
    Introduction to College on Problems of Drug Dependence special conference on risk management and post-marketing surveillance of CNS drugs.
    Schuster CR, Barthwell AG, Henningfield JE.
    Drug Alcohol Depend. 2009 Dec 1;105 Suppl 1:S4-8. doi: 10.1016/j.drugalcdep.2009.08.005. Epub 2009 Sep 23. No abstract available.
    PMID:

    19783381

    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Related citations
    Select item 147234814.
    Guideline development for office-based pharmacotherapies for opioid dependence.
    Fiellin DA, Barthwell AG; Center for Substance Abuse Treatment.
    J Addict Dis. 2003;22(4):109-20.
    PMID:

    14723481

    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Related citations
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  18. cuedude Member

    checked there website dam they are world wide got their fingers in every country not listed on any stock exchange owned and funded by nonprofit group or groups trying to find financials some protesting about opening new rehab centers but the rehab thing goes farther than rehab into brainwashing uneducated third world countrys don't see ghanian ministers as needing training in drug rehab narcon is teaching them how to use their methodology and this is world wide training in their methodology
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  19. Medical licenses in state of Illinois:


    5/27/2014 Information found on:
    ANDREA GRUBB BARTHWELL MD, OAK PARK, IL


    Profession
    License No
    License Status
    Original Issue Date
    Current Exprtn
    Ever Disciplined
    Physician, Licensed
    036063796
    ACTIVE
    01/21/1982
    07/31/2017
    N

    Physician Controlled Substance, Licensed
    N/A
    ACTIVE
    02/22/1982
    07/31/2017
    N
  20. Interesting tidbit in Barthwell's background history:

    Dr. Barthwell holds a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from Wesleyan University in Connecticut.

    [IMG]





    Also, it appears that the company she just resigned from, Catasys, is in deep financial trouble and will probably go tits up shortly .....


    Catasys, Inc. Auditor Raises 'Going Concern' Doubt
    Mar 31 14
    Catasys, Inc. filed its 10-K on Mar 31, 2014 for the period ending Dec 31, 2013. In this report its auditor, Rose, Snyder & Jacobs, gave an unqualified opinion expressing doubt that the company can continue as a going concern.
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  21. HellRazor Member

    Good find, OP. If she were called as a witness for Narconon, it would be good to point out the discrepancies between her scientific publications and what Narconon believes.
  22. Oh oh.....Dr. Barthwell can't seem to catch a break.....more problems ...... appear on the horizon.........

    It appears that the proprietary system (Prometa) used by the company (Catasys) that Dr. Barthwell served as a Board Director from 2005 - 2014, was tested in England in a double blind test. Guess what? It was no more effective than the placebo!!!!

    Kinda difficult to judge the effectiveness of Narconon, when the company you served as a Director on, produced a total goose egg and is now going bankrupt.

    http://findings.org.uk/count/downloads/download.php?file=Ling_W_11.txt
    Double-blind placebo-controlled evaluation of the PROMETATM protocol for methamphetamine dependence.

    Ling W., Shoptaw S., Hillhouse M. et al.
    Addiction: 2012, 107(2), p. 361–369.

    The US company which owns and markets the controversial PROMETA proprietary combination of drugs for methamphetamine dependence funded a rigorous trial by independent researchers; the result was a no-better-than-placebo verdict, another negative in the search for drugs to counter stimulant dependence.
    SUMMARY After cannabis, the powerful stimulant methamphetamine is the most abused illicit drug worldwide, with 15–16 million regular users, yet there are no approved medications for the treatment of methamphetamine dependence.
    A proprietary system of treatment for methamphetamine dependence, the PROMETATM protocol, combines medications purported to normalise brain systems altered by chronic stimulant use along with psychosocial treatment designed to minimise withdrawal symptoms, prevent relapse and reduce cravings. Of the three medications in the protocol, flumazenil is the principal element. Among other effects, the drug works via the GABA neurotransmitter system to block the action of benzodiazepine tranquilisers and sleeping pills. Medically it is used to reverse deep sedation and as an antidote to benzodiazepine overdose. A second element is gabapentin, an anti-convulsant which also acts on the GABA system and which has been used as an analgesic. It has been reported to reduce craving and other subjective effects of cocaine. Last is hydroxyzine hydrochloride, an anti-anxiety drug which has been widely used in the management of withdrawal from substance dependence.
    The featured study was conducted when this protocol was being heavily publicised and was subject to a great deal of debate and controversy in drug abuse, investment and news media circles. Proponents were buoyed by anecdotal reports and uncontrolled studies, while opponents cited the lack of data from placebo-controlled trials. In just such a trial, the study aimed to evaluate the efficacy and safety of this protocol in the treatment of methamphetamine dependence. It was funded by the company which owns the protocol, which also referred people seeking treatment via its call centre to the researchers and trained the researchers in the protocol to ensure their implementation matched the company's specification. The company played no other part in the study.
    The study recruited adults seeking treatment for methamphetamine abuse or dependence and who had used the drug on at least four of the last 30 days. The 120 eligible for and who agreed to join the study were allocated to one of three clinics which offered a 40-day medication regimen beginning with five infusions (at two clinics on an inpatient basis) plus 14 weekly sessions of cognitive-behavioural therapy over the roughly 15 weeks of the trial. For a randomly selected half of the patients, the medication was the PROMETATM protocol; the other half were given identical but inactive placebo preparations (except that they too were offered the anti-anxiety agent hydroxyzine hydrochloride, not considered a key element of the protocol). The study based its findings on the 111 patients who at least began the medication/placebo regimens. Typically they were white single men in employment who on average had used methamphetamine more than every other day and had used for about 10 years. Over 8 in 10 were on probation or parole and most had a history of physical and sexual abuse.
    Main findings

    Just half the 60 patients allocated to the protocol stayed in the study until the end of the 40-day medication phase and 18 to the end of the study. Corresponding figures for placebo patients were 42 and 26. At no point (until the end of the medication infusion phase, of all medication, or of the study) were there any statistically significant differences between PROMETATM and placebo patients in the proportions of weekly urine tests which indicated no methamphetamine use, or in the proportions of patients with three consecutive methamphetamine-free tests. Proportions of methamphetamine-free urine tests increased over the course of the study, but to the same degree regardless of whether the active protocol was administered or a placebo.
    This general picture was replicated by the patients' own accounts of their methamphetamine use, by the end of the study among retained patients averaging just four to five days a month, regardless of whether real mdeication had been taken. Craving for methamphetamine too fell roughly equally over the course of the study and retention or compliance with taking medication did not significantly differ. Safety concerns were few. No adverse occurrences or experiences were deemed definitely related to the study drugs, and only one was probably related.
    The authors' conclusions

    Under the conditions of this study, treatment with the combination medication protocol was no more effective than placebo in reducing methamphetamine use or craving or keeping patients in treatment. The results were negative and clear: active medication and placebo groups showed no statistically significant differences in drug use as measured by urine testing or self-report, or in self-reported craving. Both groups substantially reduced their reported methamphetamine use. The placebo group remained in the study for on average about 17 days longer than the medication group, not a statistically significant difference after age had been taken in to account. There were no clinically relevant differences in the pattern or severity of adverse events that would imply a greater risk in either group.
    These findings differ from those of another randomised and placebo-controlled trial of a similar medication combination, which did find reductions in methamphetamine use associated with the protocol. A possible explanation could be the influence of the marketing campaign which occurred during the featured trial, which may have elevated the placebo effect. Inpatient hospitalisation for infusion at two of the sites may have also contributed to a strong placebo effect. Consistent with this explanation, at the end of treatment at one of the clinics twice as many patients believed they had received active medication as believed they had received a placebo. Regardless of whether they actually did receive active medication, these patients were twice as likely to be abstinent at the end of the study. Perhaps too the psychosocial components of the treatment were stronger in the featured study.

    ...

    The evaluated protocol has been the subject of considerable controversy in the USA. Attempts have also been made to gain a foothold in the UK. The confidential protocol is marketed by a US healthcare services management company which does not manufacture or distribute the medications. Rather than a new drug, it combines in what the company describes as "a unique dosing algorithm" several medications approved by US authorities, but not for the treatment of substance dependence. According to the company, the treatment programme it markets which features the protocol is "the only outpatient program to uniquely combine medical and psychosocial therapy into one integrated program". Apparently the company changed its name (1 2) in March 2011 from Hythiam to Catasys which now markets a similar treatment under the trade name OnTrakTM.
    Last revised 26 November 2012. First uploaded 22 December 2012
  23. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    you guys are impressive she has not shit but what you will find it.
    One tip, most commonly addiction specialists are there because addiction ruled their life.
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  24. Random guy Member

    Let's see:

    - Works in the rehab field
    - Got job at White House for George Bush
    - Have a problem with people with a certain "sexual orientation"

    What would you guys think the odds are she's a raging fundie, and that she's whored herself out to defend Narconon as part of a general campaign to defend faith-based rehabs? Perhaps she'd benefit from some of the flowers of Hubbard's writing like Jesus-as-a-paedophile and how he's a figment of the imagination anyway?
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  25. Ann O'Nymous Member

    Source, please ?
  26. DeathHamster Member

    And she's an MD. I wonder if she originally had psychologist as her planned career path?
  27. patriot75 Member

    I believe that is in reference to her husband DR. David Barthwell. He is a physc.
  28. The Internet Member

    This is evil. These people are parasites on science. They are using intellectual property law to take a cut from doctors who might want to use their “dosing algorithm,” in a field where the science is pretty young.

    If some “dosing algorithm” helps patients, put that shit in a journal article so everybody can learn about it and use it.

    I think we need intellectual property protections so inventors are motivated to invest in research and development. But we do not need those protections for every fucking thing people do. Too much IP protection gets in the way of trial-and-error tweaking and peer review and hive mind, all a big part of science.

    In my Googles over the past few years, I have come across a ton of this kind of intellectual property protection in the mental health area. Proprietary therapies with lots of hype and hardly any science behind it. So you can’t peer review it without buying expensive books and signing licensing agreements. If this way of doing things catches on, I think this will damage the whole collaborative “let’s compare notes” culture of mental health treatment.
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  29. meep meep Member

    http://archives.drugabuse.gov/TXManuals/IDCA/IDCA14.html
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  30. meep meep Member

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  31. moarxenu Member

    Andrea G. Barthwell is on Twitter: @DrAGB

    Man the harpoonz!!
    • Like Like x 4
  32. This person should have her medical license revoked in any and all states.
  33. Quentinanon Member

    Andrea Grubb Barthwell is a paid scientology shill.
    Scientology quackification rundown cartoon, lol.
    As if a cartoon constitutes scientific evidence.
    • Like Like x 2

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