Who owns the London Ideal Org?

Discussion in 'Think Tank' started by RolandRB, Jun 18, 2010.

  1. RolandRB Member

    Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    Who owns the London Ideal Org on QVS in the City of London? I know COSRECI owns the Martian Embassy on TCR but I am guessing COSRECI are not the owners of the Ideal Org on QVS.

    Can anyone tell me who owns it? I need it for the document I am writing.

    I am not sure if the Ideal Orgs will be locally owned or there will be a company set up to own all of them. This new company may be the ones making representations to local authorities to get a business rates reduction so I need to know the name to warn the authorities.
  2. Anonymous Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    You can search the UK govt land registry yourself - can't remember the URL but I used it to identify the land owners around Saint Hill. I think it's something like 3 quid a document.
  3. charlie Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    PublicAccess v7.4 @ The City of London: Application Details (05/00361/FULL)
  4. Anonymous Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    That building was owned by an offshore holding company registered in BVI before the church bought it. In order to save on stamp duty, the church bought that holding company instead of just buying the building. I forget the name of the company, but it started with the letter D. "D____ Investments" or something like that.

    CSI itself did not buy "D_____ Investments." CSI has another holding company in Delaware (another tax haven) which owns all the Idle Org buildings. That holding company is called "HBA Investments" which in turn bought the holding company that owns the London Org buildings. Sorry about the brain freeze on the name of the BVI holding company. I used to know that name. Alas, time has taken its toll. Perhaps there are ex-Finance Office staff out there who can recall this information. But know you know: the building is owned by an offshore company registered in BVI which in turn is owned by HBA Investments registered in Delaware which in turn is owned by CSI. Just thinking about it some more, I think the name is "Davios Investments." I wish I could be certain about that.

    At the time the sale of the building made the "Estates Gazette" which is a real estate magazine. More details may be available in that article.
  5. Anonymous Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    Roland, sorry about a typo in my explanation of the offshore companies. I said Davios Investments owns the London buildings. I meant building (singular). The building on TCR has been owned by the church since 1968 and I was not referring to that one -- just 146 QVS in City of London.
  6. RolandRB Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    Thanks for that and the other posts. The above shows it is owned by HBA Ltd. There is an HBA Ltd registered at Companies House with company number 03140176 which I assume is the same one. If this is some sort of holding company then how will the earnings from the Ideal org be represented in accounts and somehow be a non-profit organisation for tax purposes. Will COSRECI just own the operation there, rather than the building, and hire the building and offset profits against the cost of hiring the building?
  7. charlie Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    thats the one I have hba online
  8. Anonymous Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    From Estates Gazette, 27 Nov 04:

    Scientologists fuel up

  9. Anonymous Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    Tuckerman = Tuckerman Estate Agents in London. Estate agents for the scifags.

    CWHB = Cushman Wakefield Healey and Baker. Estates agents who were getting BP out of a long lease they had on 146 QVS.

    CIC = not sure. Think they were the Lebanese owners of Daviot. BP was leasing the building from Daviot.
  10. anonymous1312 Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    DAVIOT Investments, just think diddy Davi(d) Miscavige OT. (His ego getting the better of him perhaps?)

    What you were told about stamp duty sounds like a shore story. DaviOT investments is "off the shelf". DaviOT purchased the building in 2002. The building is still owned by them, with the ownership chain you refer to being set up later.

    One thing I have learned about the cult is that building purchases are never straight forward. The Pitmaston building in Birmingham is another interesting example which I documented here - my thanks to the Anons who did all the research on this:

    NOTE: The Pitmaston building purchase was a done deal before the donations drive.

    One thing that is not mentioned in the video is that the 2 companies in the Isle of Man (another tax haven) appear to have acted as security for each other for bank loans from the same bank. Not too sure about why this was but I understand the loans were settled; a cunning tax "efficiency" perhaps.
  11. Anonymous Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    No, I was there and this is not shore story. Yes, I know Daviot was bought off the shelf and it then bought the building in 2002. HBA then bought Daviot in 2004. But saving on stamp duty was the main reason for buying Daviot (and thus the building it held).

    Stamp duty for buying a building was quite steep, but buying the offshore company incurred much less stamp duty. It was a loophole which Brown later tried to plug, but I don't know if he succeeded or not. The fact that it obfuscated ownership of the building was an added bonus, but not the main reason for buying Daviot. We are talking some hundreds of thousands of pounds in tax savings.
  12. anonymous1312 Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    I stand corrected, although I thought Daviot was always a scilon shell company from the start in 2002, which would mean they paid stamp duty on the £20m+ purchase price when they bought it then. I could of course be wrong. I guess the only way to really check would be to get what info is available from BVI on the company and see if there is any scilon link in its inception which is something I haven't done.

    I know the cult plays the standard game of having directors with undated resignations until such time as they decide to swap them with known scilons and just assumed that's what they'd done with Daviot.
  13. RolandRB Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    I notice the usual COSRECI Copyright notice at the bottom of the London Ideal Org web page so I am guessing that the operations and profit making will still be under COSRECI but they might offset profits against the rent they have to pay on the building to the owners (another Scientology entity, of course).

    Church of Scientology London

    Who actually applied for the business rates reduction on that property. Do we at least know that? Was it COSRECI? This is important for the article I am writing. Please, somebody, let me know. I want to finish the article this weekend but feel the work is bogging down. I need help in finding out things like this.

    ANOTHER THING. I was wondering whether they get a partial reduction in business rates due to their approved "change of use" request that now lists it as:

    Change of use from office (Class B1) to place of worship and non-residential educational and training centre falling within Class D1 of the Town and Country (Use Classes) Order 1987 as amended.

    PublicAccess v7.4 @ The City of London: Application Details (05/00361/FULL)

    "Place of worship" is exempt from business rates. But let me assure you, as an ex-Scientologist and knowing a lot about Scientology, that Scientologists do not gather to "worship" as any part of their religion right from the bottom of the Bridge as raw meat on the Purif to the top of the Bridge as an OT VIII "now I know who I am not and am interested in finding out who I am". So why have they changed the use of the place to include the phrase "place of worship"? There must have been a reason.
  14. Anonymous Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    It was Massimo Anguis (Legal Aide OSA UK). That's a COSRECI post.

    Yes. Massimo pulled that off.

    You are certainly right about that. However look at the full definition of Class D1 that was posted earlier in this thread. I am concerned that they actually do fit under that broader definition. I sure hope not.
  15. Anonymous Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    Sorry, the definition was posted in another thread, not this one. Here you go:

    The Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) Order 1987

  16. Sponge Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    Roland, you need to tie in with some of the posts made in your other thread on the Ideal Org business rates.
    I presume your question has been answered "Who owns the London Ideal Org?", so continue discussion related to the Rates Relief in the other thread.
    You also need to read (and digest) the information given to you. It explains a great deal. For example, if you actually bother to read the text of the planning approval for QVS then you'll see that the planning authority seems to care little about the details behind the definition for a particular organisation. In that particular case, despite a hint from another body, they didn't seem to feel it was within their remit to investigate scientology's "colourful" history and deny their application. For rates relief decisions however, Councils should be more careful and simply relying on an assertion in a planning application that they are "a place of worship" would be rediculous if that is what they did. However, as has been pointed out, there are other definitions of Class D1 which the cult does fit into better and a council has a harder time arguing with when deciding on rates relief.
    If a council wants a statutory example of whether a scientology property is a "place of worship" then it has to ask itself why scientology didn't apply for specific registration as place of worship under the 1855 Act. The reason is that they would fail under the well accepted "Segerdal" test which is now established case law thanks to scientology's failed appeal in an application for a chapel at St.Hill to be a place of worship way back in 1970. See:
  17. Anonymous Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    In 2002 that building had nothing to do with the scifags. BP was already in there on a long lease since the 80's. Some enterprising investors came along, formed Daviot Investments offshore and bought the building from its owners as an investment (to collect BP's lease payments). In 2004 the building then came on the market to be sublet by BP, who still had about 10 years left on their lease but wanted to move out of the building. The scifags decided they wanted to buy the building, not sublet it from BP, and managed to convince the owners to sell. That's short version of the story.
  18. Anonymous Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    There's background point that helps understand why Massimo was able to get his foot in the door with City of London. After the 7/7 bombings, the scieno VMs were quite active backing up the police in City of London (one of the tube stations that was hit was in the City). Although that means nothing to us, at the time this was a big deal. The VMs made themselves available 24/7 basically feeding and looking after the police and, believe it or not, their PR was quite positive. I am mentioning not because it was right or wrong for them to do that. I am just saying that the positive PR they created was real and tangible. "Food tech" worked. For that reason, I think it was easier for officials to overlook the "colourful history" you correctly referenced.
  19. Sponge Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    Yes, much arse-lickingly inappropriate faggotry was widely reported around that time
    How the Scientologists woo City police | UK news | The Guardian
  20. xseaorguk Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    how can $cn afford to pay its rent and rates in the UK?
    Surely they dont have enough going on in the orgs to make that sort of money.
    I should imagine that just the running of QV St. is very high, electricity and and other rates etc.
    And even Saint Hill can't have a huge income either and th upkeep of that large property must be high.

    Can anybody say anythying to those points?
  21. RolandRB Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    Being Class D1 does not net them anything due to the UBD (Unified Business Rates). It does not affect the rates they are charged. It is just there for the local council to get the right mix of building usage in an area.

    What I am concerned about is that the Co$ claims it is a charity that does not have to register. They are perhaps using their "place of worship" approval as proof that they are a place of worship and therefore eligible for a 100% business rates rebate. I don't know if they have done that, though. If they get away with it in one place then they can apply for the same 100% rebate in all other local authorities. That is not to say they have achieved that with the CoL already. We need to find out.
  22. Sponge Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    It has been wondered about.

    Pooks posted some recent completions lists from the Advance UK magazine on here the other day. Once it has been analysed properly then we may have some vague idea of the average number of scientologists currently on lines paying for courses in the UK. Of course you don't know precisely how much cash is given in other donations but at least there will be some ball park figures to get baseline estimates from.

    I tend to think that it is more likely that money is flowing from the USA into the UK to prop it up (and to many other countries too). Just need some facts to prop up my assertion ;).

    What you also have to ask is whether any realsitic solicitation was done for donations prior to securing most of the UK Ideal Orgs buildings. It doesn't look like it in most cases and someone previously posted that they know that the purchase for the proposed Birmingham ideal org was well sorted before there was any solicitation for donations. Without donations, and membership/attendance nothing like in its hay-days, just where the hell did the money come from?
  23. Sponge Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    And, once again, these are the kind of things that we hope the City of London will provide in a repsonse to a disputed FOI request due no later than 28th June on the suggestion of the information commissioner. It wouldn't surpise me if they remain stubborn and it goes to a full tribunal. In parallel requests, already the CoL council have accused the FOI applicant, William Thackeray, of being "vexatious". Something stinks. At least Birmingham was somewhat creative and their council used the "dog ate my homework" excuse when pressed. However, the cat was already halfway out of the bag for City of London because the decision passed through lawyers so we do know that there is some unspoken truth that they are reluctant to tell (or unspoken incompetance).

    The suggestion, as summarised in this article on the "Local Goverment Lawyer" news website last month,
    Local Government Lawyer - Tribunal rejects call for disclosure of council's legal advice in Church of Scientology rate relief case , is this.....
    If that reason is even true then the important detail is missing as to how they could determine that when they possibly may not even have checked to find out whether COSRECI really is set up to be and is operating as a charity in the strictest sense of the word. Non-profit=/=charity.
  24. RolandRB Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    I would say that in days gone past they had a lot of chumps spending their money there and were making a lot of profit. Then they would easily have been able to pay business rates. I read somewhere that when LRH was living at St. Hill they were making $50,000 a week. When I was at London Foundation the course rooms were 75%+ full. They must have been making a lot of money and paying business rates would not be a problem.

    With these Ideal Orgs, they are perhaps hoping for a revival using more affluent chumps.
  25. RolandRB Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    OK, I've got that and thanks for pointing it out and thanks for your patience. I will be including it in my document.

    Through quite unfortunate circumstances I have a lot of spare time on my hands at the moment and can put a lot of time into this project. I hope to get out a comprehensive revised document sometime this Sunday. I want to get even with the cult for taking my money and having the nerve to try to get more money off me, when I complained, for sending me to Flag for the Lisa McPherson Rundown.
  26. RolandRB Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    This will be part of the document I am writing. I know how they operate to make a loss. They are non-profit because they design their own loss so the money flows out of the UK into offshore Scn entities. This will all be explained in the document. For those reading who wonder then the UK Orgs will owe money because the UK trainee "executives" will be trained at Flag at huge expense that the Org has to pay back. When stats are low the Sea Org missions are sent in to sort things out and this is at huge cost to the Orgs who will owe this money. Now, with the Ideal orgs, they will owe huge sums to the offshore companies that own the buildings that they rent. And if, by some chance, they ever do make a profit despite this then they will donate all their profits to offshore Scn entities to ensure they are a "non-profit" organisation and therefore eligible for a business rates relief.

    Silly thing is the "missions" are for profit and never claim this relief and they are selling the same stuff (but low on the Bridge) at the same price as the "churches" and yet the missions are "for profit" and the same stuff sold at the same prices in the Church are "not for profit" and accepted by local authorities as such. This will also be mentioned in my document.
  27. Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    QVS is described in cult literature as an "IAS-sponsored Ideal Org". Best I can figure, that means they get cash from central funds to keep it afloat.
  28. Sponge Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    So ironically, it kinda looks just like how the councils (orgs) collect business rates (donations), give it to the goverment (DM) who keeps some and redistributes the rest back to each council (org) on a needs basis. ;).
  29. greebly Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    All this stuff on:

    Uk scn assets
    Inventory breakdowns
    Tax havens
    Tax treaties
    Du pont analysis

    IS Known already.

    Please participate in project sausagelulz for anything beyond that kthxbye yawn.
  30. Sponge Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    Your interest and enthusiasm is much appreciated.
    Hope your circumstances get better.
  31. Anonymous Member

    Re: Who owns the London Ideal Org?

    It means that the building was purchased with IAS money.

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