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What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

Discussion in 'Think Tank' started by RolandRB, Aug 1, 2010.

  1. RolandRB Member

    What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    I want to advertise the document you can link to in my sig as a successful example of an Old Guard/ex-member working with Anonymous to create a useful weapon against the cult. The entire document was redesigned by Anonymous. The Summary was by Anonymous. It was proof read by Anonymous including lawyers. The subsection about who pays for business rates relief was fixed by an Anon who obviously works in local government. The document is nearly all my work but was made twice as effective through the participation of Anonymous. Now it has been sent to the District Auditors of the City of London and the City of Westminster and I think the document is good enough to initiate the removal of business rates relief. I am expecting something to be announced mid-December 2010.

    It wasn't an easy ride for me but I had the good sense to accept what was on offer.

    I think the Old Guard/ex-members could be useful to Anonymous in creating material to use against the cult as well as Anonymous being useful to Old Guard/ex-members. I am not suggesting any sort of merger between WWP, ESMB and OCMB and I think they are better as separate entities but I think something is being lost if these people do not work together from time to time on specific projects.

    So my question is, "what should the Old Guard/ex-members" give you to help you with your work? What needs to be created that is not there already?
  2. thefatman Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Figures on how much money is involved in what and where it goes. Also who is involved in it.
  3. Anonymous Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    I would like to see a large group law suit initiated against the cult for compensation for abandoned families of scientologists.
  4. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    I've been wanting that as well. It seems the people who know about the money flow keep quiet about it even after they have left. Like I am certain the published figures in their unaudited financial statements in the UK that are lodged with Companies House are entirely fictitious but nobody from the UK comes out with any statements like this or claims any knowledge of it.
  5. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    I have stressed on ESMB that the ex-scientology Sea Org kids are onto an easy ride to claim back minimum wages. The Headleys are working on this for their own sakes. If they can get that one cracked then it will open the doors to hundreds of Sea Org kids to do the same. This is what has to happen next. Go down the path of the clear-cut wrongs that can not be argued against. Only when the cult is weakened through this will the other court cases stand a chance. We have to wait and see what happens with the Headley case. The rest will have to wait.
  6. thefatman Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Though, on a semi-related note, I'd like to see more exes have the cojones to come to raids.
  7. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    I agree. This should be done. At least the exes / OG should turn up and show their faces and perhaps speak to reporters. They are not afraid of being fair-gamed because it has happened to them already most likely.
  8. thefatman Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    True, I just think that there isn't much worth being afraid about anymore. If, say, 50 of the exes in Australia who are worried about disconnection spoke out, if any of them were disconnected (or all of them) it would prove us right and help end this faster. Now, if we got 100 of them, it's an exponential scale.

    Back to the topic on hand, I know of a couple of exes who know a bit about the money that went through back in the day, but I don't know if they know about the British money.
  9. Anonymous Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    This. There are too many exes who spend ages discussing Scientology and not a great deal of time acting on it.
  10. Anonymous Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    You reading this, Marty?
  11. Anonymous Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Just organise and follow the Australian example. If OG and Ex's physically got together and did some planning in different places, all sorts of shit might break loose. While 'fair game' might not be a concern, there's a huge gap between thinking about doing something on your own, and sitting down with like minded folk and getting it done. Especially when it comes to putting yourself in front of a camera, or hearing, or whatever.

    Remember, it was the Ozzie ex's getting organised that lead to Senator Xenu's efforts, and all that has followed, not the other way around.
  12. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Aussies are far more forward and "in your face" than the Brits. There is never likely to be an "in front of the camera" government investigation into Scientology in the UK. It will be the television companies who will do this.

    I would like to crack the UK finances thing but maybe it is only the top people in OSA that know what is going on.

    As for raids in London then John Ritson and Jens Tingleff come to mind. Perhaps Bonnie Woods for East Grinstead.
  13. AnotherSock Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Absolutely. I'm always amazed at how many people at ESMB bitch about how horrible the 'Church' of Scientology is, or how badly they were treated, but precious few of them appear at a raid.

    Anonymous attracted the attention of the media, and made it safe to speak out... but half the folks at ESMB are still discussing past lives, which bits of the 'tech' work (according to them) and how much better things were under L Ron Retard in the 1970s. (Which they weren't, but hey-ho.)

    With some notable exceptions like the OP, exes could be doing a lot more to bring down the cult of Scientology - and they'd likely win any court case they initiated. You don't truly realise how deep the cult programming goes until you meet exes who know what's going on and know it's wrong, but can't or won't do anything to stop it.
  14. Anonymous Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    The thing with TV companies, and media generally, is they like it when it comes cheap. You provide them with a list of a half dozen people prepared to speak out with good juicy stuff, and THEN they'll probably think about making a doco that focuses on the cult in the UK.

    You gotta make it easy for them.

    NB: The BBC is weird (and already engaged), stick to the fully commercial media who see a story being provided as a way to keep production costs down.

    This 'we're less forward' stuff is, well, an excuse. What do we need from the old guard? We need them to be more 'in your face'. At raids, in lawyers offices, and in the media. Get that sorted, and you might find, as in Australia, that the question is reversed, and becomes "what do YOU need from US?"
  15. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    If Brits were Aussies then the cult would have disappeared from the UK years ago. This is a Brit thing and not an Old Guard thing. I'm the most "in your face" Old Guard in the UK and yet I am very tame by Aussie standards.
  16. Anonymous Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    The wave of defectors in early 80s were talking re. the money. Hubbard was about to be busted by the IRS when he conveniently died. The defectors are not made the same they were back then.
  17. thefatman Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Or Anon over there can get together and make one themselves. All it takes is a nice camera, and a fair bit of pre-production. It's an idea I've been tossing up down here myself for a while.

    Wasn't WBM gonna do one too?
  18. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    You underestimate the power of the mindfuck. Most of the exes are still in even after they have left and will stay in until they die. I was referring only to people like me who are completely out. Ex-member Old Guard and by Old Guard I mean the active fighters who are perhaps too old and rundown to do much these days. Not those still mindfucked by Scientology. I see the situation with ex-member Old Guard and Anonymous less than optimum. They will always be different but they need to be working together on some projects from time to time to make best use of each others talents. More can be achieved that way. Combined in the right way they could double the effect of the anti movement.
  19. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    You definitely need some ex-members to do that and those whose families have been torn apart by the cult. Anons with a grievance are not enough.
  20. RightOn Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    As said before, I would like it if ex's would step up their game and actually do something to save others from suffering. (if they are able) They can chit chat all they want on sites, but it does very little for the cause of taking down COS.

    There really is no excuse not to help. If they can't protest, they certainly can jump on th band wagon and write via email, or by snail mail. They don't have to give their real names. The pen is a mighty sword. I wish they would just dig in and DO SOMETHING more than chit chatting. Granted some are stuck and can not protest publically due to fear of disconnection, if they have family still in. But this does not excuse them from writing anonymously.

    For instance, they can work on getting Applied Scholastics off the list for tutoring in many states, they can warn people about the CCHR exhibit, they can write politicians who have been endorsing and speaking at these Ideal Org openings, they can write to school districts and warn them against people who come into the schools and talk to kids with the COS front groups, like The Way To Happiness, The Drug Free Marshals, the CCHR and others who infiltrate schools.
    They can.....
    send post cards to a myriad of people to warn them against COS.
    work on keeping COS out of new countries by writing officials.
    come forward and add their name to the Ex Church of Scientology List.

    Basically stop being someone who always sits on the sidelines.
    They need to jump in and help.
    Of course it is their right to do absolutely nothing but chit chat on sites if that is all they want to do. But I don't know how people who have been so finacially drained, brainwashed, and hurt can just sit and do nothing for the cause of taking down COS.
    Every day that passes, is another day of someone being abused, someone draining their bank account, someone being disconnected, someone being offloaded, someone being yelled and feeling worthless, someone being shipped to another country, another child joining the Sea Org, another one put on RPF..... the list goes on. I personally cannot sit back and do nothing with so much suffering going on. I don't know how any ex's can. Especially those who were on the receiving end of COS's abuses.
  21. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    As for the US, it bugs me that they get unlimited money from the old scam of pulling in chiropractors and dentists through Sterling Management or whatever while the antis there do nothing to warn these people in advance. This would never happen in the UK.
  22. Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    The best you can offer is experience, what actions force the cult to devote the most resources trying to stop.
  23. BigBeard Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Minor quibble...Reading through this thread there appears to be a tendency to equate "OG" with "Exes", when in fact many OG were never in Scientology.

    Many OG are in fact free speech advocates brought to the fight by $cientologists attempts to bury any discussion of Scientology. In particular Helena Kobrin (The Kobra's) RMGROUP to try and remove alt.religion.scientology from UseNet, and the "Cancel Bunnies" attempts to remove particular posts.

    The main difference I see between OG and Anons is over the years is most of the OG have been "outted", "namefagged", or were never anonymous to begin with. While most Anons are still anonymous.

    Now back to the show...

    BigBeard
  24. Anonymous Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    I'd like to see OGs drop their smug sense of superiority.
  25. Anonymous Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Sometimes a sense of inferiority in self might appear as a sense of superiority in others.
  26. Anonymous Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    I assure you that is not the case.
  27. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Strangely enough, unflattering images of DM. Yes, really!!

    That even beats stopping their money flow which comes next.
  28. thefatman Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    The idea I had was never intended to be Anon ranting about how shit the CoS is, in fact, I may not even use Anon at all. Anon can only do so much to stop the CoS, we aren't the ones who were there, we can't testify in court to things we did not witness. Only the exes can do that, it's probably the main reason we weren't asked to be part of the Inquiry (that and it wasn't to do with the CoS specifically).

    I'd try to focus the documentary either as a full length (60-120 mins) on an over all thing on the CoS. Or a series of smaller ones (max 20) on specific ex Scis and their experiences/story. The whole sorta, why they joined, why they left, where they stand on it now, what lead up to their departure, etc.
  29. Anonymoosh Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Don't want to get jumped on, but will say what I would find useful, and sometimes find it takes ages to find ( not so much here cos we are very organised)
    Dox!! Tweetable dox.
    especially peoples stories like ex members on ESMB, they are hard to link to because readers that may be interested don't want to go through a 30 page thread to get the story in its whole.
    well organised places to get Tweetable dox to instantly refute anything coming out on twitter,like when they do their meet the scientologist tweets, or mention freewinds etc, i have a list of ones i use regularly, but some of the more interesting ones are hard to find, especially the financial ones.

    just sayin'.
  30. Anonymous Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    This isn't going to be very concrete, but here are some general ideas, ignore or use as you see fit:

    The Old Guard / ex-members can bring in all their strengths like everybody else can, only that their strengths lie in a different area, namely their experience and understanding of structures and of the inside perspective and in telling what they witnessed or participated in. So while one way to help is to participate in projects that everyone can participate in (adding manpower), other ways to help lie in places where your particular knowledge is of use. One thing I would like to see - and I don't know if it doesn't already exist somewhere - is a guide to the differences or similarities between policy and real life within Scientology, if possible at all with a clear separation of cult lingo and english. I was never in and often have trouble to see where Scientology policy and Scientology reality meet or differ. For an outsider it is already pretty difficult and time consuming to learn the terms and meanings and the difference between 'auditing tech' and 'administrative tech'. Or the differences 'public'/'staff'/Sea Org' or the entire construct of 'PTS/SP'.
    I've also read in the past that there are policies that supercede other policies. I mean, obviously KSW is valued more than 'The Way to Happiness'. For example, is 'The Auditor's Code' taken seriously? This thread isn't the place to discuss this, but that's one of those questions I'd like to have an answer to. I've seen bits here and there, but no comprehensive, non-ideologic guide of theory vs reality. This would be a really big project which simply cannot be pulled off without loads of exes from different areas. Also, which policies are used to handle wogs. Not the PTS/SP course, if I'm not mistaken, as it seems to be more about handling internal stuff, like finding the SP at an org on the basis of statistics. Practical examples of operations against wog critics, like how are the files used, what's the process, what's the relation to the lawyers and PIs like comparing theory/policy with reality etc? Or consider the Watchdog Committee: Is it important or not? Was it ever important? I know Larry Brennan has written about this. Something like that for every area of Scientology. Also, differences between continents or countries in how matters are handled if there are any. Then there are also some holes in theory or missing leakage: I haven't seen any orders relating the transition from Guardian's Office to OSA. Any orders to the effect that it's just another name for the same thing or that the same orders still apply would be very valuable. Also, experiences about this transition. Detailed knowledge organized in an accessible manner would be very neat. Also more about the concrete money flow would be nice. What I would also like to see is a separation of what you see from general conclusions or your personal interpretations or opinions. So that there is always a clear separation between data and assessment of the data.

    And of course, most important, if you have any knowledge about criminal activities, go to the police. Also, what RightOn said.

    You have unique strengths, if you bring them to the table everybody profits from it. I know many already do that and that is great. A lot of the successes of recent years are your work or would be impossible without your work and courage. Thanks.
  31. Anonymous Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    I think the most important thing that needs to be done is build relationships with local government officials, media, and community leaders.

    OSA's main function is to "place Scientology at the absolute center of society", and it is in charge of all external affairs. They have built these relationships for the last twenty years and longer. The local DSA's subvert politicians like Sharron Angle and Jeff Stone to legitimize the cult and promoted Narconon, Applied Scholastics and the others. They then use these relationships to dead-agent both anons and exes.

    One of the most serious situations is in San Jose where the three local DSA's subverted the head of Network for a Hate Free Community, and got her to distribute a flier defaming Anonymous. They have committed the crime of false light defamation.This is the only situation I know of like this. And I am sure OSA wants to create more.

    Everyone is SJ considers themselves members of San Jose Anonymous, because it is Anonymous that gets defamed, not a group called "Exes".

    There must be thousands of exes in the San Jose area. Where are they?

    Another situation is Kim Bellote in Washington DC filing a TRO request base on the mendacious accusation of stalking. Where are the exes in DC? Are they going to step up to help raid if Anonsparrow gets totally banhammered? Are they writing to the media, talking to religious leaders and government officials?

    Exes need to be willing to tell their stories where is going to do most good and counter OSA's dead-agenting campaigns with leaders in society.

    So we need more raiders, and we especially need more exes to do research, work on projects, and to be willing to work together with anons to build relationships to counter the ones OSA has built up over the years. Exes are key in this effort, because it is their stories of abuse that are most compelling.

    I also want to note that the line between exes and anons is blurry. There are exes that have raided since the beginning in GF masks, and have continued to maintain complete disguise and anonymity for the past 30 months. Some of these were even channers before the rise of Chanology.

    Sparrow is one of the most outstanding anons there is, and he is also an ex. We need more like him.
  32. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    If you are in the business of trying to "build relationships with local government officials, media, and community leaders" then you need ex-members providing you with the sort of documentation you require to make this a success. You need to ask this of them. State clearly what is needed.

    Some exes will let you down if you seek out specific people. There are exes who are still in and will never leave until they die. There are exes who are too badly damaged to be of any use to anyone. There are exes who would like to do something but have relatives still in the cult. Only a few exes are completely out. Some of them are OG. Most OG are free speech advocists who were never in.
  33. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    I would say that most of this is already out there but a little hard to find. Maybe all it needs is a bit of organisation and some sort of compilation effort.
  34. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Not sure whether this is a troll but would add the OG come in two forms, ex-members and free speech advocists. They are not the same.
  35. Anonymoosh Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Definitely, You will know what i mean, I read at least 3 forums and xenu.net and others a day, and all the info on those is spread out, and needs a search function to find if its an older post, then there are the independent sites that have stuff like Lerners, and you KNOW you have seen it somewhere, lol. but tracing it in seconds flat to refute something on Twitter is not easy, but Twitter is a great way to get Dox out there to a lot of people.

    I will point out that the mass DMshoop thread is going to be invaluable for tweeting cos it is so easy to link from. something like that for dox and stories from ex-members would be fantastic.
  36. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    I had thought of the idea of having "clean threads" here where any junk gets deleted by the mods for no stated reason such that you had a thread perhaps called "links to ex-member stories" where it only contained such links and if anyone added noise then this would get removed. I think this would help. Maybe have a "clean thread" warning somehow that makes it clear. This is what I wanted for my "Why Orgs never make a profit" thread.
  37. Anonymous Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Considered the wiki?
  38. RolandRB Member

    Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Don't know about it. How does it work?
  39. Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    The wiki needs development, and that requires lots of help from people who actually know what they're talking about.

    Cleaning up threads is a fruitless and painstaking endeavor.

    I would love to see our wiki developed into a really good resource.
  40. Re: What do you need from the Old Guard / ex-members?

    Why We Protest Wiki

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