Toronto conference on Scientology, June 22-26, 2015

Discussion in 'Canada' started by The Wrong Guy, Apr 25, 2015.

  1. Classic.
    The videos are not "only available if you take the professors course" and no where is there anything about OSA reviewing and censoring the videos.
    We are supposed to fall on each other like rabid beasts fighting over monetization of videos/ censorship/OSA OSA OSA instead of focusing on the conference and waiting for the videos to be posted. Nice try.
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  2. DeathHamster Member

    Define religion.
  3. The definition of religion is whatever I or someone else wants it to be.
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  4. DeathHamster Member

    Then it fails the definition of a definition. Flunk.
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  5. BLiP Member

    I define religion by what it is NOT. Accordingly, religion is not the covert application of psychological techniques against a person in order to extract money and/or behavioural control. Thus - Scientology is not a religion.
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  6. To Anonymous Ocean & fail boat,

    This is the quote from James Beverley from upon which my question was based:

  7. As you can see you are mistaken.
  8. No offense, but I don't wish to emulate you in this way.
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  9. Random guy Member

    He also wrote the meeting went south from there so no.
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  10. Your emotions are clouding your thinking.

    You're referring to James Beverley's point #2.

    The above quote is from his point #3.

    Number 3 comes after number 2.

    Why all this emotion over a few simple questions?
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  11. Hugh Bris Member

    Well, we can agree on that, at least
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  12. pedrofcuk Member

    Secret meeting with OSA in Toronto!

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  13. pedrofcuk Member

    OSA feigns indifference as I try to explain that I'm not anti-Scientology, I just don't like bullies and liars. I care enough about the victims entrapped in the machine to risk being tricked, sued or lied to, and so on and so forth. I tell him that I'm not a member of the so-called "hate group" Anonymous and never was. When I say I'm not "under investigation for welfare fraud", he really begins to read his newspaper.

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  14. It's a religion because many of their buildings are churches.

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  15. failboat Member

    The quote does NOT say that Earl and Pat will have access to the videos first, like you assumed in your question.

    The quote does NOT say that Earl and Pat will correct the videos before they are released to the general public, like you assumed.

    One might just as easily assume from the quote you've repeated that Beverley will allow Earl and Pat to review the video just as anyone else will be allowed to review the video when the video is released to the general public, and that Beverley is open to correction from anyone after such time as the video is released and can be viewed by anyone, including OSA.

    Your line of questioning and assumptions to the contrary are not warranted based on Beverley's quote, which is why there is so much emotion, and why I would suggest to you again that you shut your mouth and reserve both judgement and assumption until the videos are released.
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  16. I think it was sewing seeds of dissension. He suggested that the organizers and videographers were either profitteering and in collusion with OSA. Wierd.
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  17. Goodness! You two are really uptight. "Sowing the seeds of dissention."

    In the material to which you referred, I never mentioned, or suggested, profiteering or collusion; rather, I quoted a statement and asked a couple of reasonable questions based on that statement. Open cooperation is not collusion. As for profiteering, that's on the mind of one of you two. It hadn't occurred to me.

    You're projecting.

    There is no problem, so relax.

    The videos should be released today. Monday. Three days after the end of the conference.

    Then they can be posted here, on this thread, which, after all, existed mainly for that purpose.

    Peace out.
    This message by bARFIE has been hidden due to negative ratings. (Show message)
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  18. Professional film makers. Vids released 3 days after a conference? Hahaha. Whaddya think this is? Golden Era crap?

    Vids are available but on the attendees cameras and phones. Being shared.
  19. The underlined is what I took seriously:

    That, to me, means unedited, raw, footage.
  20. The Wrong Guy Member

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  21. JohnnyRUClear Member

    What is it that you want people to do, here?
  22. jensting Member

    Follow their lead and continue to disregard the actual content of the conference?

    (No, the content; not the question of what is the meaning of the following words: "is" and "$cientology" and "a" and "religion" and the character "?" - or any combination thereof - which did perhaps feature in one session but is hardly the most interesting thing that I saw in just two days.)

    Just asking a question, is what I'm doing...
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  23. jensting Member

    Two choices: Dome the derail or lose the ability to communicate on the topic of the thread. Simple.
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  24. Ersatz Global Moderator

    That wasn't the point. Reports take a minute to close. 20 reports = 20 minutes. The religion v cult discussion was on topic since one of the conference leaders introduced it in this thread.
  25. From James Beverley. Back to this thread's topic. Fill 'er boots nay-sayers! lol

    A brief note on filming before going on some vacation with my wife Gloria:

    1. The entire conference was filmed in HD, with a super film crew (producer and three camera guys), professional lighting, backdrop, etc.
    2. The 28 sessions of the conference add up to about 30 hours of film.
    3. The film is now being edited. Sorry, we could not afford to do live filming and in the end did not do live-switching.
    4. Jon and I will be making decisions about film promotion and release in the next couple of weeks.
    5. The conference content and the experience was out of this world, as many have testified. Thankfully, the film sessions will ensure the same kind of experience for those who were not there.
    6. I am not going to make any predictions about when and how we will release sessions or the entire conference. I do know Jon and I want to get sessions out as soon as possible, without being careless about a product that cost a lot of money that is also a product that we want to use to help as many people as possible.
    7. If any ESMB readers know a lot about promotion, platform options (YouTube, Vimeo, DaCast, etc) and so on, please send me a private message if you can help.
    8. Jon and I have no interest in getting into details about our private finances related to the conference. In the grand scheme of things, from the start we have had a position of total trust in each other and view the whole conference as a venture of two equal partners.
    9. I will keep you posted about filming though both Jon and I need to recuperate from the work we have done on the conference, from the schedule we kept during the conference, and from the work we did in other areas (Jon wrote a small book in the last few months and my book on Jesus and Islam came out the week before the conference started...see
    10. Given past claims that I am a spy for Scientology, I hope my work on the conference, the attacks on my employer (Tyndale Seminary) for letting me organize the conference with Jon (Tyndale did not sponsor the conference but supported my academic freedom to do so), and the attacks on me personally from two local Scientology leaders, will put to rest any and all notions that I am pro-Scientology. The conference had a huge impact on me in the sense that it increased my hostility to Scientology's right to tax exemptions unless there is a clean-up on a scale that would make anyone believe miracles are possible.

    Thanks for all those who have written kind thoughts about the conference.
    Please spread this post to other sites.

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  26. 166

    From Jon Atack on ESMB:

    "We used three TV HD cameras and are editing the mass of footage. We still need to make arrangements with all of our participants regarding publication, but at the moment intend to issue on supervimeo for a few bucks a session (Prof Jim laid out a small fortune for the seminar and we must recoup as much as we can, unless some wealthy patron wants to step up. Does anyone have Bob Duggan's number?). We will issue session by session and eventually hope to stick the lot on bluray.

    I think all of those present would agree that it was an astonishing event. I arrived back yesterday and fell over after five days of eleven and a half hours (actually more like a Sea Org schedule, as it began at breakfast and ended when i sloped off for my five hour sleep each night. I was stunned one night to be applauded when i wished the assembled multitude good night). I'd been awake for 27 hours when i arrived home. I was very happy to see my two youngsters and my cats!

    I think Nora Crest summed it up when she said that she'd healed more in five days than during the last five years and had actually had a night's sleep for the first time (and she didn't qualify in how long...). And her husband's From the Cradle to the Slave was simply brilliant. Jamie de Wolf is a genius and Jesse Prince should have his own TV show. John McLean's account of the murder of ten Moroccan officials because of 'sec checking' (thank-you, Ron, for the marvels of standard tech) was not the only tear-jerking moment. I shudder to think how many have suffered and died because of Hubbard the junkie's crazy Purification Rundown, and Angela Harris nailed it with calm, scientific analysis. All of the participants were jaw-droppingly fine. Much wisdom was shared, and my thanks go out to all.

    It was the best birthday party I've ever had, by far! And, despite 40 years around the subject, I still learned from everyone who spoke. After the Armstrong case, attorney (and legend) Mike Flynn turned to Gerry and told him he'd killed Hubbard. We killed Scientology at Toronto. All we have to do now is dig a big enough hole to bury it in. DM is doing his best to help and has already stuck his poor slaves into a little Hole. We should do our best to dig them out.

    I've suggested that we hold an annual reunion, and as Operation Clambake will be 20 next year, think that Norway would be a good venue.

    My profound gratitude to all who made this possible but most especially Jim Beverley, who, contrary to repeated rumours, has done more to slow the cult down than almost anyone in the last decade. Please send him love and donations!"
  27. Maybe it's just Jon's jet lag speaking, but it's obvious that Scientology was not "killed at Toronto."

    That "James Beverley... has done more to slow the cult down than almost anyone in the last decade" is also obviously not so.

    Some perspective is needed.
  28. Random guy Member

    In his own sphere, perhaps.
  29. Full text at
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  30. According to Jon Atack, the Conference is 60 thousand dollars in the red: "Prof Jim handled all the money details. From what he has told me, it is in the region of 60K. I'd be perfectly happy to distribute the material for free, once Jim has been paid back, but I have to contact all the participants to find out how they feel."

    Caroline, do you or Gerry have any comments on the above?
  31. Yes. Gerry had some related thoughts from the article I excerpted earlier, which I'll add here:

    Gerry asked me to post the additional, in response to Phobos:

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  32. Hi everyone...

    A brief note since I am trying to catch up on some of my Tyndale work before starting holidays with family and friends in eastern Canada.

    1. The 28 sessions of the conference are now being edited.I am not sure when that will be finished.
    2. Jon and I have to figure out how to recoup our losses, and are still working on that.
    3. In the glow of the moment, Jon overestimated my influence as a critic of Scientology. That was his way of noting the significance of the conference. His comments were not some desperate move to get sales of the film. He was simply thrilled by how great the conference went.
    4. When I told Pat and Earl that I was open to their correction of anything wrong in the films, that was in the context of Scientology leaders meeting my students (who took a course that was separate from the conference) after the conference ended. It became obvious as the conference started that they were not interested in communicating with me. My school was attacked over the conference (even though Tyndale did not sponsor it) and I imagine I was attacked in those emails and phone calls that the school received.
    4. The idea that OSA gets to decide about the content that gets released is bizarre.
    5. I would be grateful if people on this board would stop making speculations that are based on wild guesses, false assumptions, etc.
    6. As soon as Jon and I finalize editing, get release forms, and have a final product, we will move to the most effective way to do two things:
    (a) recoup our losses, and (b) reach the widest possible audience.
    7. We appreciate advice on both goals though it is easier to read advice if it is not couched in careless judgments or nasty accusations.

    If you want to write me privately, use

    PS. Does anyone on this board have any regret for accusing me of working for OSA or having a cozy lunch with Pat/Earl or being a dupe of Gordon Melton or taking my picture at a lunch meeting or distorting the meaning of Earl buying me a diet coke and a salad, etc. etc.?
  33. anon8109 Member

    This board is open to everyone, so all kinds of people post here, including Scientology members and OSA.

    The quality of posts varies greatly, so it's up to the reader to gauge what is worth paying attention to.

    To make things even more interesting, anonymity leads to people posting things they would never say to your face since there is no fear of reprisal and no reputation to protect.

    Those are some of the drawbacks, but the benefits greatly outweigh them. Anonymity frees people to post information they would not be otherwise able to for fear of embarrassment or reprisals, especially ex-members. Anonymity also lets people avoid OSA scrutiny and "fair game" attacks, such as when organizing protests or other actions that would make them a target. Without WWP, and its progenitors 4chan and, there would not have been monthly worldwide street protests on a grand scale starting in 2008. There would be far fewer scientology activists watching the cult's every move, blocking their attempts to infiltrate mainstream organizations through their front groups, and exposing their abuses and criminal activities all over the internet.

    The fact that OSA has failed to shut down project chanology after 8-1/2 years when they have succeeded in shutting down well-funded organizations such as the Cult Awareness Network and the Lisa McPherson Trust is a testament to the power of organizing anonymously on the internet. OSA's tactics in destroying criticism is to cut off the head of a group. But Anonymous has no head to cut off, so they have been spending money and time in a futile effort to chase down thousands of anonymous protesters one at a time. This drain on their resources and attention has been so effective that it drew some of OSA's attention away from more important targets such as journalists, ex-members, and publicly named critics.

    Thus starting in 2008, the freeze on media attention on scientology began to thaw until today there is a flood of exposure with hundreds of articles appearing monthly in news media around the world.
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  34. Malory Member

    And yet you stand back like an auld woman with a straw arse and let your so-called friends do the bullying and lying for you. Of course you can always throw them under the bus if anything was going to interfere with your reputation as a 'leading activist' who coasts along taking full credit for the work of others.

    Yeah, I know I'm going to get yet more shit for pointing this out but I don't like bullies and liars much either.
    This message by Malory has been hidden due to negative ratings. (Show message)
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  35. The Wrong Guy Member

    We Went to the World’s Largest Anti-Scientology Conference

    By Josh Tapper, VICE Canada, July 3, 2015

    This is a good article that everyone with an interest in this should read. Here's how it concludes:

    As a missionary, [Chris Shelton] traveled often around the United States, opening his eyes to a world outside Scientology. Still, it was a 10-year process extricating himself from Scientology after coming to grips that the information he was feeding recruits and fellow Scientologists about the Church's sweeping influence were, Shelton said, nothing but lies. "I'd gone around to dozens of orgs and they were empty," he told me. "It was frustrating to see we weren't succeeding and that people hated us. After a while it became undeniable. It was bullshit and we were fucked."

    Today, Scientology claims a global membership in "the millions," and Pouw insists the number is increasing. In 2001, 55,000 Americans declared themselves Scientologists, according to a City University of New York study. Atack, who told me he's viewed internal membership reports, believes there are only roughly 30,000 card-carrying Scientologists worldwide, a shockingly low figure for an organization critics claim is worth billions of dollars. That striking discrepancy is one reason why Atack decided to hold the conference now. Organizers spent a huge sum hiring a film crew for the five-day conference, hoping the result can both raise awareness and provide therapy to some of the 250,000 people Atack allegeshave been "damaged" by Scientology.

    "We're losing a fortune doing this," he said. "But whatever, it means that it's on the record now."

    While the Church seemingly remains a powerful player in North America, several people I talked to at the conference believe Scientology is in a death spiral. Maybe the Church will flame out upon the death of Miscavige, the chairman, but maybe not. Regardless, Alex Gibney's 2015 HBO documentary, Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief, and the book by New Yorker journalist Lawrence Wright on which it's based, have thrust Scientology's dirty laundry back into the limelight, and that can only help.

    "The Church of Scientology will collapse," Atack said. "When and how, I don't know. A dinosaur that big can keep on moving for a while."

    Comments are open, here:
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  36. Does anyone have handy the net worth of Scientology from

    Since Scientology - besides collecting blackmail - is mainly about money, that seems like a good question to ask.
  37. DeathHamster Member

    Difficult to say. The only time that Scientology supposedly opened the books was in 1992 for the IRS deal, and in my opinion, that was a load of cooked crap which Marty still supports even now.

    The claim is that if CoS had to pay off what they owed in back-taxes, they would have been bankrupt. That doesn't fit with the size of Hubbard's personal estate which they should have regained control over after his death.

    Paying off the IRS in full would have hurt them badly , but wouldn't come close to driving them under. I suspect that they were still hiding most of Hubbard's estate money.

    Call it a couple billion and change.
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  38. Hi James Beverley, have you any response to Gerry Armstrong's comments and questions, in the second (lower) section, the section that starts at "Thanks for asking..." ?

    It would be helpful.
  39. I wrote Gerry and said that Jon and I will take his suggestions seriously.
    Two further thoughts:

    1. It would not be painless for me to raise $60,000, as Gerry suggested. If it was painless, I would have raised that kind of money before the conference.
    2. If we rent or sell videos from the conference, we will reach as wide a market as possible. There is no need for any conspiracy theories on the matter.


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