Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Relyt · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

You people and your insisting that everything must be done this way or that way... "They should have talked about LRH's abuses!" "Why didn't they ask about blah blah blah etc.?"

Is it that difficult to understand that the questions were done in such a journalistic way as to be completely relevant to the subject at hand, or do you want every journalist to go off on a tangent on every single critical aspect of Scientology to make it as perfect as you can possibly dream for? Sure, you can be "disappointed", but are you really surprised? Martin isn't going to go from talking about David Miscavige's physical abuses, to suddenly asking if Hubbard's past was accurate, or some deep philosophical discussion about the tech or the freezone, or whatever you people who crave for perfection expect.

Also, I've noticed a pattern that (I've mentioned this in similar ways, but I'll repeat it) most exes left because of something they've seen in management that didn't ring right with them. They saw a pattern of things wrong with what was going on within organized Scientology and when they reached their last straw, decided to leave and never come back. When they look at criticism, they tend to stay focused on whatever kind of criticism seems to be pointing out, what in their minds would be, hypocrisy and squirreling by Miscavige. When they look at criticism that points out anything wrong with Hubbard and his tech, their mind instantly shuts off and they disregard everything and ignore whatever source that information is coming from, and completely forget about it. When they're encouraged to look at their management, the first wave of doubt rushes in. The next wave(s) of doubt usually don't come in until AFTER they have left Scientology and do more and more research. In fact, I think the cases of people leaving Scientology based on counter information about Hubbard, have got to be incredibly rare compared to people who have left due to Miscavige and his reign over Scientology.

So, when you're more successful at getting people out of Scientology, more people are likely to speak out. And the more people speak out, the more likely you are at making progress. I guess that's just common sense, though.

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

But, this is Anonymous! Common sense has no place here!

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1041728 said:

Relyt;1041736 said:

You people and your insisting that everything must be done this way or that way... "They should have talked about LRH's abuses!" "Why didn't they ask about blah blah blah etc.?"

...

Also, I've noticed a pattern that (I've mentioned this in similar ways, but I'll repeat it) most exes left because of something they've seen in management that didn't ring right with them. They saw a pattern of things wrong with what was going on within organized Scientology and when they reached their last straw, decided to leave and never come back. When they look at criticism, they tend to stay focused on whatever kind of criticism seems to be pointing out, what in their minds would be, hypocrisy and squirreling by Miscavige. When they look at criticism that points out anything wrong with Hubbard and his tech, their mind instantly shuts off and they disregard everything and ignore whatever source that information is coming from, and completely forget about it. When they're encouraged to look at their management, the first wave of doubt rushes in. The next wave(s) of doubt usually don't come in until AFTER they have left Scientology and do more and more research. In fact, I think the cases of people leaving Scientology based on counter information about Hubbard, have got to be incredibly rare compared to people who have left due to Miscavige and his reign over Scientology.

So, when you're more successful at getting people out of Scientology, more people are likely to speak out. And the more people speak out, the more likely you are at making progress. I guess that's just common sense, though.

Hum... The report's purpose wasn't to get "people out of Scientology". It was to inform the viewers (supposedly). From watching Part 2, I learned:

the "Purification Rundown" makes people feel "brighter and more alert"

the e-meter "works [exactly] on the same principle as a lie detector"

David Miscavige negatively influences Tom Cruise's anti-psychiatry views

To really inform the public however, it would have been important to complement the above with:

the "Purification Rundown" is dangerous and there is no scientific evidence supporting it

the e-meter can't be compared to a lie detector (lie detector = unreliable, e-meter = a 5 year-old toy)

Tom Cruise's anti-psychiatry views are rooted in Scientology teachings (included in the Xenu story)

JohnnyRUClear · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1041665 said:

That would be an ecumenical matter.

/Father Ted

...so...what? Are you implying that priests won't talk about theology with anyone other than Catholics?

Anonymous;1041755 said:

Hum... The report's purpose wasn't to get "people out of Scientology". It was to inform the viewers (supposedly). From watching Part 2, I learned:

the "Purification Rundown" makes people feel "brighter and more alert"

the e-meter "works [exactly] on the same principle as a lie detector"

David Miscavige negatively influences Tom Cruise's anti-psychiatry views

To really inform the public however, it would have been important to complement the above with:

the "Purification Rundown" is dangerous and there is no scientific evidence supporting it

the e-meter can't be compared to a lie detector (lie detector = unreliable, e-meter = a 5 year-old toy)

Tom Cruise's anti-psychiatry views are rooted in Scientology teachings (included in the Xenu story)

But the MartyZoners got butthurt over part 2, so I'm happy. >

Relyt · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1041755 said:

Anonymous;1041728 said:

Hum... The report's purpose wasn't to get "people out of Scientology". It was to inform the viewers (supposedly). From watching Part 2, I learned:

the "Purification Rundown" makes people feel "brighter and more alert"

the e-meter "works [exactly] on the same principle as a lie detector"

David Miscavige negatively influences Tom Cruise's anti-psychiatry views

To really inform the public however, it would have been important to complement the above with:

the "Purification Rundown" is dangerous and there is no scientific evidence supporting it

the e-meter can't be compared to a lie detector (lie detector = unreliable, e-meter = a 5 year-old toy)

Tom Cruise's anti-psychiatry views are rooted in Scientology teachings (included in the Xenu story)

I didn't say the purpose was to get people out. And the purpose wasn't simply "to inform", as I'm sure this show exists solely to inform about anything in a very broad sense. No, the purpose of the show was to expose abuses within Scientology, based on accusations by former high-ranking members as told in the St. Petersburg Times article.

Did you expect Martin to try to refute the claims made about the purifs and the e-meter? The purpose was also to mark down the points as explained by one side, and asking the other side to tell their side. Martin was playing the middle-man in this. The show is set up to let both sides tell their story, and have the audience decide. You honestly can't expect each and every journalist to take our side and ask pummeling question after pummeling question for them to prove what they're saying is correct. It doesn't work that way. This isn't a FOX NEWS or CNN segment in which a dramatic actor calling himself a journalist takes an aggressively biased stance on something, it's not even really a debate; it's an educated attempt to try to set the record straight on something, in which in the end, it's the audience who decides. And if you ask me, I think the audience got all they needed with Tommy walking out on the interview the way he did, instead of answering a simple question.

WTF · Oct 25, 2009

Re: What Marty and Friends have to say about Nightline Day 2

eddieVroom;1041685 said:

It seemed to me that Marty was commenting not so much on the anti-psych rants, and more that TC is "duplicating command intention". That is to say, projecting DM's personality traits.

This statement may play inside as meaning that presently, duplicating DM's Command Intention now trumps the old goal of Duplicating Source - which would be a severe betrayal of LRH. This would not particularly be news to OG players, we've seen DM de-emphasizing LRH and deifying himself for years now. The Squirreled Basics are a prime example of the former.

Marty in a round about way was saying Tom Cruise is PTS to the asthmatic dorf.

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

voiceless849;1041301 said:

I'm an ex. Nobody who leaves Scientology is in a "healthy state of mind". it takes YEARS to straighten up, if you are strong. Don't expect honor from an ex, especially a recent ex. They have to deal with terrible, humiliating and debasing things that hopefully you never will.

I've been asked to contain kidnap victims against their will. I declined, but what if I had said yes? Questions like this haunt me, despite the many years that have passed.

Ex-Scilons, especially recent ex-Scilons, are damaged goods. Treat them as such.

If you were asked to help detain a kidnap victim, you need to talk to the FBI *RIGHT NOW*. You need to explain who was kidnapped, who did it and on whose orders. You will possibly be offered immunity (in fact I'd say it is likely but don't quote me on that) from prosecution on this, especially if you refused to take part. We need people to speak out on this thing, not just publically, but to the FBI. It is their job to keep tabs on Scientology and to prosecute them for their crimes.

If you need help approaching them, please contact Boris. He knows how to approach them with valuable information.

xenubie · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Man, Tommy looked like a pissed off little girl who didn't get her way.

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1041728 said:

You honestly can't expect each and every journalist to take our side and ask pummeling question after pummeling question for them to prove what they're saying is correct.

It is not "our" side, it's factual information: The purif is dangerous to one's health. Now the CoS can make nice ad quoting Amy Scobee that toxic goo was coming out of her skin -- it works! Yeah, I expect good reporting to actually show the views of experts on the purif if they are going to talk about it.

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

JohnnyRUClear;1041783 said:

...so...what? Are you implying that priests won't talk about theology with anyone other than Catholics?

It's a joke from a TV show you likely don't watch since it would cause you too much butthurt.

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1041814 said:

It's a joke from a TV show you likely don't watch since it would cause you too much butthurt.

Thank you for saving me having to explain it. Everyone should be tied to a chair and forced to watch Father Ted.

JohnnyRUClear · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1041795 said:

don't quote me on that

{chuckle}

Anonymous;1041814 said:

It's a joke from a TV show you likely don't watch since it would cause you too much butthurt.

Ah, right, I know of it, but it isn't the show I watch.

stuwyatt · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

JohnnyRUClear;1041783 said:

...so...what? Are you implying that priests won't talk about theology with anyone other than Catholics?

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvvwNR3vF44"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/nomedia]

Father Jack (alcoholic priest) normally says only 4 words: Drink!, Feck!, Girls! and Arse!
Some bishops are due to visit the island, so Father Ted tries to teach Father Jack to answer all questions with "That would be an ecumenical matter" or "Yes"...

<3 Father Ted

Relyt · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1041811 said:

It is not "our" side, it's factual information: The purif is dangerous to one's health. Now the CoS can make nice ad quoting Amy Scobee that toxic goo was coming out of her skin -- it works! Yeah, I expect good reporting to actually show the views of experts on the purif if they are going to talk about it.

The show wasn't about whether Scientology works, please lurk more.

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1041728 said:

<3 Father Ted

tazor · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Finally made it through the whole thread. It was excellent and well worth the time.

Still laughing. Especially love the tags.

JohnnyRUClear · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1041665 said:

That would be an ecumenical matter.

/Father Ted

stuwyatt;1041831 said:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Father Jack (alcoholic priest) normally says only 4 words: Drink!, Feck!, Girls! and Arse!
Some bishops are due to visit the island, so Father Ted tries to teach Father Jack to answer all questions with "That would be an ecumenical matter" or "Yes"...

<3 Father Ted

That does make sense then. Thanks.

So, retroactively: Rood one, Rhaggy!!

BusinessBecky · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Relyt;1041784 said:

I didn't say the purpose was to get people out. And the purpose wasn't simply "to inform", as I'm sure this show exists solely to inform about anything in a very broad sense. No, the purpose of the show was to expose abuses within Scientology, based on accusations by former high-ranking members as told in the St. Petersburg Times article.

Usually jornalism involves getting the facts behind the story. Having looked at many different interview, the only impressive interviewer the church had is Moxon. Tommy was fairly indoctrinated at a young age and has a very weak sense of how people in the real world behave. Journalism can use means of figureing out the truth without misrepresenting it. So what.

Relyt;1041784 said:

Did you expect Martin to try to refute the claims made about the purifs and the e-meter? The purpose was also to mark down the points as explained by one side, and asking the other side to tell their side. Martin was playing the middle-man in this. The show is set up to let both sides tell their story, and have the audience decide. You honestly can't expect each and every journalist to take our side and ask pummeling question after pummeling question for them to prove what they're saying is correct. It doesn't work that way. This isn't a FOX NEWS or CNN segment in which a dramatic actor calling himself a journalist takes an aggressively biased stance on something, it's not even really a debate; it's an educated attempt to try to set the record straight on something, in which in the end, it's the audience who decides. And if you ask me, I think the audience got all they needed with Tommy walking out on the interview the way he did, instead of answering a simple question.

I still feel that there is something missing from this show. There are hundreds of recentsci ex-s they could have interviewed.

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

BusinessBecky;1041865 said:

Usually jornalism involves getting the facts behind the story. Having looked at many different interview, the only impressive interviewer the church had is Moxon. Tommy was fairly indoctrinated at a young age and has a very weak sense of how people in the real world behave. Journalism can use means of figureing out the truth without misrepresenting it. So what.

I still feel that there is something missing from this show. There are hundreds of recentsci ex-s they could have interviewed.

They dedicated two nights to this and there are other things going on in the world that don't involve Scientology that they need to report. Let us hope that Nightline doing these two nights has opened the door for other programs to feel free to investigate Scientology, too.

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1041253 said:

The fact that he did not use his opportunity in the media spotlight to atone for destroying evidence for the Lisa McPherson case made me raeg and raeg. (He could have done that and still accomplished his goal of making DM look bad). Instead we watched incidental footage of Mr Innocent canoeing into the sunset. He wanted to blame DM for all the ills of Scientology. Very telling, IMO.

Homicide has no statute of limitations...

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

FrancesJWorthingtonIII;1040975 said:

TOBIN BELL, NOT TOM TOBIN! This is how rumors start, FFS.

Austria, Australia, what's the difference?

Josef Fritzl - Encyclopedia Dramatica

Skeptic1337 · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

I didn't even know he was a scifag.

Well good on ya Tom.

A-non-non-anon · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1041824 said:

Thank you for saving me having to explain it. Everyone should be tied to a chair and forced to watch Father Ted.

Skeptic1337 · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

.

exOT8Michael · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Skeptic1337;1041905 said:

.

Good point.

Mutante · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Skeptic1337;1041905 said:

.

QFT

FrancesJWorthingtonIII · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

A-non-non-anon;1041904 said:

Well, fuck. That only took me over a year and a half to understand.

OTBT · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

voiceless849;1041299 said:

The "Free Zone" primarily takes issue with the fact that Organized Scientology is "squirrelling the tech" and is altering the scripture of Scientology. But this doesn't change the fact that many of the atrocities of Scientology stem from policy that requires it.

Hubbard did write that you should only attack, never defend. He wrote the policy of disconnection, and the policy of Fair Game. He described anyone who ever questioned Scientology as a "Degraded Being". The Free Zone is just as susceptible to these weaknesses as any other Scientologist.

There's no "good side" to this equation. it's just dark and more dark.. There are no truly "good Scientologists".

voiceless849;1041301 said:

I'm an ex. Nobody who leaves Scientology is in a "healthy state of mind". it takes YEARS to straighten up, if you are strong. Don't expect honor from an ex, especially a recent ex. They have to deal with terrible, humiliating and debasing things that hopefully you never will.

I've been asked to contain kidnap victims against their will. I declined, but what if I had said yes? Questions like this haunt me, despite the many years that have passed.

Ex-Scilons, especially recent ex-Scilons, are damaged goods. Treat them as such.

Thank you. I'm an ex, been out for many years, and very much agree with this.

Relyt · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Skeptic1337;1041905 said:

.

Good to see you're still on the dot.

J. Swift · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Tommy Davis is such an Evil Psychiatry. His logic is non-answer, stupid, balderdash. Change a few words and one can use Tommy's non-logic to defend anything based on utilitarianism:

Nightline: Has heroin ever been subjected to randomized clinical trials to assess its efficacy?

Drug Dealer: I have no idea. I don't know why it would be. It works for heroin addicts and that's what people use it. I don't know why it would be subjected to random clinical trials.

Nightline: Because it's a...a drug that alters an addict's sense of reality.

Drug Dealer: In an addiction.

Nightline: But has heroin ever been tested objectively is what I'm asking?

Drug Dealer: I mean heroin gets used every day by heroin addicts.

Nightline: I'm not asking that. I'm asking...

Drug Dealer: To my knowledge, no. ...And as far as evidence of heroin and its efficacy, the evidence of that is in those drug addicts who have used it to great benefit. And as far as the heroin dealers are concerned, it's the only evidence that matters, is that the addicts get results and keep coming back for more.

////

exOT8Michael · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

SKEPTIC wrote .

Relyt;1042021 said:

Good to see you're still on the dot.

Actually that dot is all that remains of D aywatch
Imploded into a tiny black hole, I guess.
Ok, just kidding.

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

J. Swift;1042119 said:

Tommy Davis is such an Evil Scieno-Psych! His logic is non-answer, stupid, balderdash. Change a few words and one can use Tommy's non-logic to defend anything based on utilitarianism:

Nightline: Has heroin ever been subjected to randomized clinical trials to assess its efficacy?

Drug Dealer: I have no idea. I don't know why it would be. It works for heroin addicts and that's what people use it. I don't know why it would be subjected to random clinical trials.

Nightline: Because it's a...a drug that alters an addict's sense of reality.

Drug Dealer: In an addiction.

Nightline: But has heroin ever been tested objectively is what I'm asking?

Drug Dealer: I mean heroin gets used every day by heroin addicts.

Nightline: I'm not asking that. I'm asking...

Drug Dealer: To my knowledge, no. ...And as far as evidence of heroin and its efficacy, the evidence of that is in those drug addicts who have used it to great benefit. And as far as the heroin dealers are concerned, it's the only evidence that matters, is that the addicts get results and keep coming back for more.

////

Not understanding why you triple posted.

One big difference. Heroin does have some kind of effect. e-Meters don't.

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Poor Tommy Davis definitely has that repressed homosexual look.

I bet Smurf is pleased

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

FrancesJWorthingtonIII;1041983 said:

Well, fuck. That only took me over a year and a half to understand.

Do not grow fingers in fences.

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1042122 said:

Not understanding why you triple posted.

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

voiceless849;1041301 said:

I've been asked to contain kidnap victims against their will. I declined, but what if I had said yes?

What kind of ballpark numbers are you talking about when you say "kidnap victims"?

Bob Loblaw · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Anonymous;1036603 said:

Anderson Cooper got scooped?

If Anderson Cooper/CNN got scooped, well, whose fault is that? Our project to expose Scientology's abuses is hardly a secret and not supported by a metric-ass-ton of excellent research.

I still hope that AC and the crew at CNN will still choose to do their own investigative reporting and continue to expand both coverage and knowledge of CoS abuses.

tampabay.com — St. Petersburg Times and tbt*

Bob Loblaw · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

OTBT;1042000 said:

Thank you. I'm an ex, been out for many years, and very much agree with this.

I'm not an ex, but IMHO, I'd argue that a reasoned, compassionate approach and communication style for current Scientologists and Ex's (both recent and otherwise) is the most effective. This is as opposed to a "you're a recent Ex - you're not to be trusted and I have no interest in providing any sort of help whatsoever."

Yes, I agree that we need to be cautious about how far we put ourselves out personally toward Ex's. Excepting those that tried a course or two and said "ah, yeah, this is definitely a scam", we could argue that those that stay in for substantial periods of time suffer from serious anxiety, depression, or other issues.

That noted, we could choose to be mean and cruel, or we could choose to be mindful and compassionate. I believe the latter is the most successful in many dimensions over the long run.

Bob Loblaw · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

(dupe of previous msg deleted)

Anonymous · Oct 25, 2009

Re: Tom Tobin, St Pete Times on NIGHTLINE 2 Night Scientology Story

Bob Loblaw;1042228 said:

I'm not an ex, but IMHO, I'd argue that a reasoned, compassionate approach and communication style for current Scientologists and Ex's (both recent and otherwise) is the most effective. This is as opposed to a "you're a recent Ex - you're not to be trusted and I have no interest in providing any sort of help whatsoever."

Yes, I agree that we need to be cautious about how far we put ourselves out personally toward Ex's. Excepting those that tried a course or two and said "ah, yeah, this is definitely a scam", we could argue that those that stay in for substantial periods of time suffer from serious anxiety, depression, or other issues.

That noted, we could choose to be mean and cruel, or we could choose to be mindful and compassionate. I believe the latter is the most successful in many dimensions over the long run.

Hey Marty, I love you

xoxox

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