This is outragous

Discussion in 'News And Current Events' started by Nedjarsan, Aug 12, 2009.

  1. By your written admission with your thoughts and ideas conveyed you are obviously a cave dweller or a member of the current regime in Iran. You obviously do not get the sarcasm in my previous replies. So to state it in plain english.

    I don't argue about human abuses I know nothing of as they don't exist in my reality.
    In my country: Women are empowered and revered. Not stoned and abused.
    In my religion: Children are coddled and loved. Not brainwased to be a suicide bomber

    So maybe I should have said go back into your hole a get and beat your wife she will love you for it and you will feel more manly.

    BTW: if your balls itch now free free to scratch them, you knuckle dragging primate.
  2. Hi Coyote and Roe. Yes I agree with Coyote's description of the experience.

    I still am unpersuaded that many of the big newsmakers are truly moved to champion those who have been so cruelly violated. I suspect that there is political capital to be had.

    However, I will concede that this surprising -- and laudable -- turn of events has added to the workload of the regime. One more obstacle against totalitarianism. And for the people: one more calorie added to the latent heat. Soon there will be a sudden transformation. Water will change into steam. Those in bondage will change into those who are free.
  3. Just ignore the trolls.
  4. Again a strange reply.

    why would I be a member of the current regime ? I am critical about Iran in my mail???????
    The sarcasm part I did not understand (was it supposed to be funny ?), this thread is quite serious...

    "knuckle dragging primate" ... You are probably from the USA , am I right ?

    What is this religion you talk about where children are loved ?

    I do not know of any such religion which propagates love.
  5. Coyote-IRAN Member

    I found this out the hard way, when I posted something about T. Mousavi up in myspace. She was still missing at the time, and her body had not been found, but they knew she had been raped because of when she was taken to the hospital.

    I posted something up in one of the Iranian groups there, thinking people would be as angry about it as me and try to help with finding her, but the reaction was nothing or anger at me for even talking about it. Took me a while to figure it out. But now I get it.

    I think those who raped her and anyone else need to be hung by their genitals until their genitals atrophy from blood loss and fall off. But that is just my personal opinion. I see no shame at all on those who had it forced upon them against their will. No shame there. Just pain, that they may not want to deal with by people like me constantly bringing it up, so I can understand.

    Sometimes, you have to face the pain to keep more pain just like it from being inflicted upon others.
  6. Ariss Member

    Going through the previous pages, it amuses me, how many (perhaps government-sponsored) trolls we are facing on this forum. But if Twitter suffered so badly in the past weeks, why should the forum remain intact?

    What amuses me the most that people keep pulling phrases like "the rich West /US". A clear expression of envy. And the "evil west exploiting poor muslims" is just the common communist ideology. People in the less fortunate parts of the world are mostly poor because of a "vicious circle" of underdevelopment, political instability and unresolved wars. I hope out trolls have had enough today, and will not bother this thread anymore. Instead of trolling, that person should have thought of ways helping the poor of Iran, instead of accusing foreign powers.

    As for Lebanon, that land is a classic example of all troubles that shook the Middle East for almost a century. Since this region was not famed for religious tolerance, the existance of a state with nearly half christian and half muslim populace (not counting other minorities like Druze or Baha'i) is a recipe for instability. But if internal conflict was not enough, Iran has also interfered with local business, with the IRGC establishing its local branch Hizbollah. Just a simple look at their flag (you know, the one with a Kalashnikov mashinegun looming over the Earth-globe) tells how peaceful their objectives are. And - up to date - they have been utterly loyal to their masters. All efforts for peace were ultimately shipwrecked because of Hizbollah was unwilling to disarm its militia. But ask yourself: In a normal state, how many political parties have their own army? How long it will last before they attempt a bloody coup? This was the very question that prompted the King of Jordan to disarm all armed Palestinian rebels threatening them with death penalty had they refused to give up their weapons. Since then, we haven't heard of any major infighting or terrorist attack in Jordan. A country ruled by armed parties isn't a country at all. That is a civil war at the moment of a ceasefire. But as long as the Islamic Republic Of Iran stands as it is now, do not expect Lebanon to become a land of peace. After all, the least thing the Iranian leaders want is a united Lebanon that would likely make peace with Izrael. If that would happen, the whole ideology of the Islamic Republic would collapse. And - as you may well know - there is no dictatorship without ideology used to control people.

    As for the news, they also make me happy. Even if the reformists (especially Rafsanjani) have not yet gathered the number of (parliament/council) votes necessary for a major cleansing of the regime, just to watch the rabid infighting among conservatives is a source of joy. Unbeknownst to them, they will bring their own regime down by their mad bid for power. The more they cling to it, the faster it will dissolve to sand in their hands. I even believe many of them are quite aware of the looming collapse of the system, and they are desperately searching for tools of power that could keep them afloat if that very day comes... Some may attempt to change sides, to join the reformiest camp, others might simply want to look reformist. All they hope is to retain their authenticity - so that they could be re-elected in a democratic way, once the great change comes. You should be aware of the great number of these turncoats. A good advice: accept their help, while the system is still standing, and get rid of them, once it falls.
  7. Roe
    If memory serves me it was in the persia bcc paper about two weeks after neda. When I read the story I even thought now the regime has lost stuping to this. That poor young girl what a way to die. Very brave to withstand and not submit to reading the traitor script for tv.
  8. I am asking to be shown why I should trust Raf and those around him. Specifically I want to be shown if they did at one time in the past care about those who are raped in prison. Or whether this is a new thing.

    I do not think it can be said that people care only when others are looking.

    Or that someone understands caring or not caring, being exposed or not being exposed, based on one's nationality.
  9. Apparently this is common practice


    Dr. A’zam wants to testify to what he saw in a public hearing, he said, in hopes that the truth about Ms. Kazemi's death will renew worldwide attention on her case, and ultimately lead to the "indictment" of Iran's Islamic Republic.

    What the doctor, Tehran ER physician Shahram Azam found:

    *Her entire body carried strange marks of violence."

    *Bruised from forehead to ear

    *Skull fracture

    *Two broken fingers

    *Broken and missing fingernails

    *Severe abdominal bruising

    *Evidence of 'very brutal rape'

    *Swelling behind the head

    *Burst ear membrane

    *Bruised shoulder

    *Deep scratches on the neck

    *Broken 'nose-bone'

    *Evidence of flogging to the legs

    *Crushed big toe

    What the Iranians said:

    'The death of the late Kazemi was an accident due to a fall in blood pressure resulting from hunger strike and her fall on the ground while standing.'

    -Iranian judicial branch, July 28, 2004
  10. Idiomagic Member

    The Litany Against Trolls

    I must not respond.
    Trolls are the thread killer.
    Trolls are the little dicks that bring total bannination.
    I will ignore the trolls.
    I will permit them to pass over and through the thread.
    And when they have gone past I will turn the browser to see the ignore list.
    Where the troll has posted, there will be nothing
    Only I will remain.

    Silence Is The Enemy of Freedom
  11. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    Hello, Unregistered 35. you have asked a number of questions which are all very important and will take some time to answer. (please, it is a warning to get a snack :) )

    i have answered these and similar questions before, but perhaps not as completely as was required, and i do not hesitate to speak here again on Raf's behalf. if you believe i do not do your questions justice, please use the 'search posts' feature by clicking on my name. thank you for asking me these questions.

    i do trust Rafsanjani. he is committed to an Irani Republic, with all those words imply. that is, i think most importantly, the removal of the clergy from the government, not just a step toward laicity.

    from our perspective, indeed i think large numbers of people feel this way everywhere, a gradual change would be preferred. to use an analogy, is it better to take the stairs or jump from the roof? one may survive the fall, but there will certainly be dramatic consequences. or the reverse- is it even possible to jump directly on to the roof from the ground?

    when the election was stolen on 12 june, it was simply the last in a very long line of abuses, both to people and the system, which could not be tolerated any longer. most people voted for Mousavi. he has had political problems in the past, and not much charisma, and the regime simply did not think people would vote for him. if they had rigged the election a little more subtly, this might not have happened. green was Mousavi's color.

    Mousavi has been in very few protests. he does have information on his FB page, but we have shown we are willing and able to do this on our own. when the phrase '... Irani Republic' began appearing in chants and singing, Mousavi was not too happy to not hear 'Islamic' (or so i hear, i cannot confirm Mousavi's actual thoughts, but he is rumored to be cutting off some of his support base, ie the military, who are *very* republican minded). how much has Mousavi done? has he threatened Khamenei? has he started inquiries into abuse? has he traveled to Qom, Tabriz, Mahshad, Isfahan? has he met with the members of the Military or the Assembly of Experts? was he at the bazaar today? Rahnavard was. Raf's daughter may have been.

    i say/ask all of this to indicate:
    1) if there is someone on whom greens may rely, it is Raf, more than Mous. please do not suggest that because Mousavi is more prominent or public that he is in greater danger. all have military protection- not IRG- military. who is in greater danger, the one who travels or one who stays home? who is more prominent, Mousavi who deserted the protesters 10 years ago, or a former president, general of armies, Grand Ayatollah, and largely self made billionaire?

    2) use of the term Greens has become ambiguous. please understand, i am not judging or complaining. but Mousavi was never really in charge of this movement, and has acted rather poorly as a revolutionary leader (my humble opinion). again, Raf has done all the heavy lifting, largely behind the scenes and largely with suspicion.

    so who are greens? Mousavi supporters? no. not unless he in turn supports a secular republic.

    like the people, like the military, and like Grand Ayatollah Rafsanjani, who yes, is working to separate religion and politics.

    many people on the street have mixed feelings about Raf, because he has been working quietly in the corridors of power. few have the perspective which is granted here, but because of forums like this one or Twitter, the perception is changing. since 17 july, the perception is changing and certainly over the last week as Raf has become more vocal, the perception is changing.

    prior to a few days ago (when Raf began taking a more defined stance) Raf was playing the game of politics. in all places it seems the same: play one's cards close to the chest, admit as little as one can in order to get one's enemies to commit first, etc. those days are done. lines have been drawn in the sand, so to speak, they cannot now be undrawn. politics and dealing is why it has seemed so slow. to us (this week especially) things are going very quickly. i must remind you, we protested like this for over 10 months in 1979. this revolt began properly in 1999. back to the roof analogy- political evolution is always better than a revolution.

    it does not matter whether you agree or not, that is the cultural perception of this kind of change. up until the last possible minute, war will be avoided if possible. again, Raf has been planning for these events for decades.

    Khamenei did not push Raf out of the Supreme Leader's throne. on the contrary, Rafsanjani helped install Khamenei to his place of preeminence. Khamenei was a political appointee- boom -no more Islamic Republic. as soon as an unqualified cleric was installed for political reasons, the decline and fall of the Islamic Republic had begun.

    when the people win this revolution, for the regime has no choice at this point but to collapse, changes will still appear to be slow to outside observers. i am led to believe there will be amendments to the constitution, the military will ensure peace for an interim government, new elections will be held, an actual judicial branch will be established, a clerical body (i think) will replace the Supreme Leader and will only have veto power, (still too much, but remember- evolution) and the IRG will be combined with the military. things will be very different, but these are not quick changes, they will take time. i can only hope UN and human rights observers are brought in. and Qods, hamas, hizbollah, and others are taken out.

    with regard to corruption, Raf is among other things a businessman and a politician. few will be successful in these endeavors without the taint of corruption. perhaps it is a matter of degrees, or perhaps it is a matter of what one does with one's power.

    the allegations and 'proof' of Raf's corruption were leveled against him by Ahmadi and his supporters prior to 12 june. this was a weak attempt to discredit him and it failed publicly during debates and in published documents in which claims were successfully refuted and a reasonable amount of innocence was established. if you have friends who remain convinced of Raf's corruption, ask them who seems more corrupt now? ask them what it may have cost Raf of his personal fortune or political capital to purchase the lives, or ensure the freedoms of the people of Iran. like some precious few before him, Raf appears to be motivated to use all his personal resources to save a nation and her people.

    what are the motivations of those who allege corruption while the most corrupt regime in Iran's memory is raping a land and her people?

    i hope i have answered your questions, given you one thing you may be motivated to ponder, and been of service.
  12. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    yes, Roe Lassie, it is the shame.

    Coyote's post was excellent and answered the qustion perfectly, i thought. but he left out (or did not fully explore, is more accurate) the shame. shame is what made those people angry at you, Coyote.

    if you look at Arab papers re these recent events and their impact, you will find shame is a big part of the story as it is reported regionally.

    the 'do not execute virgins' thing was designed to protect the young. instead an abomination has been created and perpetrated against the weakest of Muslims and all other faiths.

    several have mentioned before that the Islamic Republic is no more, in part because they can no longer claim to be the refuge of the oppressed Muslim.

    and only those with souls are able to feel shame.
  13. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    Bugs Bunny, i apologize if my posts have been too lengthy or too detailed. in any event, i seem to have failed to explain what i mean by civil war.

    perhaps we should define what is meant by 'regime'. within the context of all these discussions, i have taken regime to mean the following:
    Mojtaba (Khamenei)
    the IRGC leadership who have instigated the coup, who own vast wealth and business interests and are a part of the 'circle' of Mesbah-Yazdi devotees who believe they *need* to shed as much blood as possible to bring the Mahdi back from wherever it is that he is hiding.

    all other forces which can be brought to bear to support, including Hamas and Hizbollah, who in prior weeks have left Lebanon and Syria in large numbers to earn $200/day as basiji.

    everyone else will be fighting them. this is a war. whether it fits into a neatly defined description is immaterial. there will be a war. a war inside a country between to opposing factions for control of that country. a civil war. the military is not the IRG. there are two 'armies' in Iran. the military is on the side of the people, it will therefore hopefully be a very short war.

    but a war it will be.
  14. Coyote-IRAN Member

    I forget. Maybe three weeks ago. Her family had heard that she was arrested, they had checked with a hospital and found out she had been brought there unconscious, with severe anal and vaginal injuries. But she had been taken away from the hospital before she regained consciousness, and no one knew where she was. The family was still trying to find her.

    A few days after that her body was found in the desert, burned.

    I posted something about it in the Persian Buddy group, with an account that is named Justice for Iran. If you look in that exact group, you can probably find the date. Aside from the same kind of basij scum-bag trolls that pop up here every now and then, few people have been posting in that board lately.
  15. Heh. They have read this thread, and even quote our sp4rrowh4wk.

    Good. Let hopefulness spread. Fear is our greatest enemy.
  16. houshy Member


    Just to say how much I appreciate this discussion, Sp4rrowh4wk's insights here and elsewhere (not to mention his poetry: "it is almost midnight &the singing of the determined is more powerful than it has been for 30 yrs"), Roe Lassie's kindness, so many other contributions... The wisdom and maturity and compassion and discipline and dignity of the voices here is what gives me hope for Iran's future as much as anything else. I hope that one day when anonymity is no longer necessary that we will meet for real, with something to celebrate, and remember these conversations that are making a new kind of history.
  17. Coyote-IRAN Member

    Hawk is definitely the man. Don't forget Ned, too. I find his dialogues between Khamenei and AN very entertaining.
  18. I understand this Roe. And have never said anything against the people's right to accurate information and their right to choose for themselves. :) It is not really fair to imply otherwise. Thank you.

    For clarity I would like to say that, when folks include me in a conversation, make claims, and so on, then I would like to be able to ascertain which way is up. That means that sometimes I question so that I can be clear about what is actually going on. It doesn't mean I disagree. It just means that I need more information.

    If I were to just accept people's claims on face value just because people say them, I would be no good to anyone, not even myself.

    That's all I was asking. Thank you.

    Correct me if I am wrong: are you saying that one possible reason the clerics are coming out strong against these rapes now is that they would be shamed publicly if they did not express concern for and solidarity for the survivors? And perhaps that they did not come out before -- even though there were numerous rapes before -- because the survivors themselves were not as vocal then as they are now. Am I understanding you?

    And yes, the survivors are very very brave indeed.

    I guess I have to say that I would prefer that the clerics care because their people have been unjustly and grievously wronged -- and not because the clerics risk being shamed. Any concern the clerics feel about shame falling on their clerical heads seems somewhat selfish to me. Silly me, but I guess I was expecting more from them. But wot-the-hek: whatever gets the clerics thru the night. :eek:

    If the clerics' response to the news of the prison rapes sends forth another towering wave against the regime's sinking ship; then I say send away and sink away.
  19. @Unreg re Zehra Kazemi. Thank you for revisiting the loss of our Zahra Kazemi. Many of us are still very angry here in Canada about what happened to her in that Iranian prison. It was an abomination. Not even animals do such things!

    Moreover, simmering under the surface among many of us, is our worry over our blogger and our Bahari and our rage that they have been unjustly imprisoned. We want them back. Unharmed.
  20. I guess my point here is that the same regime is still denying the same crimes in the same way five years later.
  21. In a relatively brutal society where punishments such as stoning to death and public floggings are accepted, the violence perpetrated on the protesters and especially those in prison is unlikely to cause much of the public and especially the mullahs and clerics to react powerfully enough to reject their government. The rapes, however, are over the line for any but the most evil, and that will be the straw breaking the back of this regime. When it is shown that they knew and did nothing or even supported these travesties, the people at large and those responsible for the moral authority of the nation will be forced to act in an aggressive way. Heads will roll, in a figurative sense. They can not continue to hide what has happened. It has happened to too many. It is only a matter of time now...
  22. Hi sp4rrowh4wk! Thank you for replying to my question re civil war. I simply wanted to know why you are using this term and not another. And you have kindly answered my question.

    My reading of 'regime' is the same as yours, which I must say is a relief to me because you are obviously in a much better position to know these details than I am.

    Not entirely immaterial. But I understand that you may be speaking more metaphorically than I at this point -- that's OK with me. I can do metaphor. ;) I understand what you are saying and accept your terminology. I believe we are reading from the same page now. Correct me if I am wrong?

    For clarity, please allow me to explain that my initial concern about using the term 'war' was that legally it implies that both sides are armed. That means that both sides are guaranteed certain very important protections concerning their treatment by means of international conventions. And later it has ramifications for how the regime is treated in international court.

    We know that the protesters are not armed. I would be worried that some people may get the impression (wrongly) that the protesters have armed themselves and that that may be a reason that some folks are calling this a war. Just to be clear: we understand that the protesters are not armed.

    But we can call this a war because of the ferocities, the deaths, the atrocities, the grief, the loss, the hard choices, the disinformation, the betrayals, the truths, the blood, the destruction of innocence, and so many other things, including the impassioned and justified opposition to this terrifying situation.

    May those freedomfighters on the front lines be strengthened, held up, guided wisely, befriended by those worthy of trust, protected, defended, and given anything they ask for to get through the next day and the days after that.

    I am hearing you btw that the military is on the side of the people. I am happy to hear that. Thank you as usual for your insights and please don't apologize for the length of your writing. I always read your writing very carefully.

    Thank you for distinguishing between the methods of Rafsanjani and those of Mousavi. Can you clarify the appropriation of the colour green? Green is for Islam, is it not? Green is also Mousavi's colour. Green is also the colour of the protest movement. I can see that it is easy to confuse which kind of green a person represents. You yourself said that green has become ambiguous.

    Why has there been this scramble to grab the colour green?

    But my question to you is less about green and more about red. In Toronto, I saw a sea of red flags at one of the protests. What does this mean? Is it something new? Something old?

    You also say:

    Earlier you said something along the lines of the military supporting an Irani Republic and not necessarily an Islamic Republic of Iran. I apologize for not being able to find your quote right now.

    How workable is this amalgamation going to be for the military? The IRG, for the most part, are deeply indoctrinated in Khomeini/Khameni cultism, are they not? And those in the IRG who are not indoctrinated this way simply love their money and their power. It seems to me that both kinds of IRG will rub the military the wrong way and trouble may be brewing.

    Can you comment please? How stable a situation will emerge from a divided military?

    You also say to Roe:

    Again, I think I am not understanding your terminology. I would distinguish shame from guilt. I am very versed in shame culture having come from one. (One's good name (reputation) is one's life.)

    But I have to say that I know some people very well whose behaviour in life has plunged them into the pit of shame as soon as they were exposed. But are they remorseful? That is, do they feel guilt for what they have done? No way. Do I believe they have souls? Not for me to judge, but I sure as hek stay away from them.

    Shame can be useful, but it is never a characteristic I can trust. A change of heart toward the good I believe is worthy of my trust and I am one who will always hold the candle for changes of heart. Why? Because the evidence spoke to me. I have seen changes of heart.
  23. Thank you very much Roe for hanging in there with me. I think we are reading from the same page. Sometimes it takes a little more talking. I understand now that you were winking at me. I had a Welsh boss who used to poke me in much the same way. She was great and we get along fine.

    In any case, I have to run. I have things to do outside today and tomorrow I will be away completely.

    But I just wanted to leave the following with you and the others. My friend here was asking me about the rapes and I told her what I knew which isn't much. But then she asked me about the danger of AIDS.

    OMG! How stupid I have been! I never even thought about AIDS! Does anyone know anything, have any doctors spoken about this? With the sheer horrific numbers of people who have been raped, I would imagine that AIDS must be something which has to be addressed on an epidemic level. Please, I would like to know anything which people have to offer on this.

    Have a good afternoon, everyone and I hope some of you are getting some sleep. Hugs to our brothers and sisters.
  24. Well, since a lot of the ones that are raped are killed afterward, I think that may not be an as large of an issue as it would be otherwise.

  25. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    Hello Bugs Bunny thank you for your compliments and questions. i will do my best to answer them (briefly, lol).

    green is the traditional color of Islam. Mousavi used it in his camaign to emphasize the regime's actions which are contrary to Islam, to help foster a sense of nationality, and to reinforce his stance not as a revolutionary, but an Islamic reformist.

    all Mous supporters originally were in favor of gradual reform, or simply anti Ahmadi. as more and more atrocities occurred against the protesters, more people (many of whom were ambivalent or too frightened to protest) lost their inhibitions and came out to support the protesters themselves. as more atrocities were met with decreased support from the clericy- especially the Supreme Leader -the protests have assumed the full rage and dissatisfaction with the current religious regime. all strata of society are involved, and no one will be satisfied with an Islamic Republic any longer.

    i would say it is less of a scramble and more of a change in what the movement represents. new or aspiring leaders need to be aware of what people want. some of my comments are directed to those people, who may not have access to actual people on the streets, and only listen to political advisers with their own agendas.

    yes, advisers of a type will be the only ones reading here (if at all) yet the message seems to be heard, none the less.

    the presence of red flags at demonstrations in other countries (thank you!) i cannot address adequately. they probably represent an effort to hijack your demonstrations. whether from regime supporters, royalists, MEK/MKO, or whomever, i cannot say without being there. i am given to understand yellow represents Amnesty International or another human rights organization.

    well, this is a very good question. the answer lies in the way i phrased the the original statement: the IRG will be combined with the military.

    i know this will be perhaps painfully hard to imagine ;) but there is actually as much or more in my replies and statements which is implied, rather than stated. i try to speak as clearly as i can, but i also assume a deeper level of understanding is present than may be.

    this is what i mean by that comment: the IRG will be dissolved and assimilated by the military. such a move cannot happen over night. the IRG has become an army which protects the government from the people and this is never a good thing. the military is composed of real career officers and men who are apolitical, not involved with business or banking or smuggling- or torture, rape and messiahs. the members of the IRG/basij forces who do not agree with this will be weeded out. corrupt officers will be tried, etc. it is the law that the military is not involved in politics of any kind.

    had i phrased it: the military will be combined with the IRG, then one would gather there would be more crazy religious indoctrination of officers, more abuses, a total dictatorship supported by military force, and the annihilation of freedoms in Iran, because the IRG would control everything and every political office.

    again, i must stress that this is what i hear. these things cannot be considered facts until they come to pass. i will let readers judge for themselves with regard to my accuracy or lack thereof (counter-coup, anyone? :eek: unfortunately, i overstated a rather small troop movement that day. please, let the reader beware.)

    with regard to shame, it is a word loaded with meanings which may not translate well from one culture to another. all cultures have this and it is an impediment to relations. my view is the impediment is quite severe. if you, or anyone, attempt to view too many things through the lenses and prisms defined by your own culture, there will inevitably result misunderstandings. the major problem is we are not at all aware, most of us, of the existence of the various lenses and prisms. we grow up and develop them naturally so that we may better fit in with our respective cultures. nothing wrong with this. but my prisms do not match yours.

    all wonderful statements implying a life full of opportunities for learning and growth (ie, distress and hardship). all of us have lived lives of this nature, and to each are given tests and opportunities for which we alone are prepared to deal.

    but the underlying basis for your statements reflects a completely different cultural bias which does not apply to those outside the 'culture of shame' from which you come. i appreciate your sympathy, and i am honored by your attempts to understand and empathize. however, the egocentrism, or culturo-centism, reflected in your statements are misplaced.

    i hope i do not offend, it is not my intention. i wish to increase understanding between cultures.

    as to judging souls, i am reminded of a metaphor: an electrician works with invisible forces. the forces must be channeled appropriately or they will cause great harm, mischief, even death. an electrician studies for many years if they are to be worth what they are paid to handle these forces appropriately.

    i am sure i have not made myself particularly clear. perhaps the message really is: if you do not understand, it is ok. a lot of people do not understand a lot of things, and i personally am an expert of nothing. not all comments are intended for you, or for you alone, Bugs Bunny. a lot of people read this forum.

    i hope i have been of service and answered your questions. and i sincerely apologize if i have caused, or you have perceived, any insult. such was not my intention.
  26. thorsdaughter Member

    i'll give that an amen!
  27. thorsdaughter Member

    amen to this also- there has been corruption all thru man's history- there is no bad race - there are deluded individuals who grasp power &intimidate people- like your regime!troll!
  28. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    thank you very much, Coyote and Houshy. Houshy, that is really an old one! one of my favorites is the one mentioning Verdi. thank you, all of you, again.

    because my twitter account continues to have many issues, i have to be extra careful now about what i post and what is RTd. i feel as though the poetry aspect has suffered lately, but important messages are still being transmitted.

    thank you, again.
  29. thorsdaughter Member

    if everyone of good heart would speak out when they see injustice, there would be less injustice.
  30. Your view is idealic, however reality of the situation is most likely a buzzkill for you
  31. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    thank you, Roe Lassie, i think that will not be necessary, though. i can always post on the sp4rrowh4wk thread which already exists. having two threads for me is really way too many. thank you.

    i can still (i think) post on Twitter, just not erase, no DMs, and no searches. i was receiving some important information via DM, but it had stopped long before my account was crippled. searching would be nice, but not vital.

    i do wonder what is going on, but i am not concerned. the one time there existed a minor emergency, many good people came together to help me. if necessary, i will call on you again.

    thank you again for all of your support.

    ps. i really like your new background, Roe Lassie!
  32. @sp4rrowh4wk: I am splitting my reply in bits because, once again I have gone on and on.

    (red hilighting is mine)

    Thank you for this hawk, and no worries; this has not escaped my notice. Ultimately who knows to what depths our understandings go? It is a constant pleasure for me to witness the efforts which people make to understand this world. Hence the importance of good will and clarification among people; would you not agree? :)

    Thank you for this. This has been my take on the military, but since it was not stated, I thought it might be safer to ask what your take might be.

    I guess I was drawing from an academic understanding which was neither western-based nor eastern-based. But as Kurt Vonnegut Jr so eloquently said: hi-ho. :D

    Misunderstandings can be overcome, would you not agree? Hence the importance of good will and clarification. I believe it has been called elsewhere: coming to the table; accepting the oustretched hand of friendship.

  33. continued from previous post...

    I am not following. I think I understand about prisms. And the relative merits thereof. But I was not talking about prisms. I was specifying terminology which, to my understanding, has been worked out among scholars over a period of time much longer than my own life and among people much smarter than I am. One of the things we do in dialogue -- correct me if I am wrong -- is work toward reading from the same page, so that when we speak we have a common understanding. Is there something wrong with this approach?

    Thank you. :eek:

    Hhhmmm... I do not remember saying 'culture of shame.' I believe I said 'shame-culture.' Yes, here it is:

    However, let me ask this: did you mean 'culture of shame'? :confused:

    And please let me ask this as well: Can one culture not learn from exposure to another culture? Is logic and evidence not intercultural? Does it matter if a person is a Baluchi? If he is a Kurd? A Bahai? A Jew? A Christian? A First Nations? Are we all of us not given the gifts of reason and observation?

    In that very particular way, are we not all equal? Or, as George Orwell so eloquently said: are some more equal than others?

    Moreover, please let me ask this: Are we prisoners of our culture?

    Sigh, I must admit that determinism has never really had any huge appeal for me. As I said in my previous post -- and I did try to be clear (but, as I am sure you will admit, that is not always easy) -- I am always one who holds the candle for a change in heart. ;) I understand that there are those who disagree with me on this. And that's fine, but just so as we're clear.
  34. continued from previous post...

    I guess that's me told then? :D

    Let me ask this: is your assumption not that the terminology to which I have referred might be personal, as opposed to being informed by exposure to a larger sphere of observation and examination? Forgive me if I transgress, but I must say that I am curious as to what such an assumption might spring from? In any case, if memory serves me, my first exposure to that terminology was in studying parts of the world not too far removed from, say, your own.

    (btw there are ample papers on shame-culture versus guilt-culture on google; tribal societies versus global societies; closed societies versus open societies and so on. Pretty interesting stuff.)

    I am wondering if understanding between cultures is not a two-way street? What do you think about this, hawk? In any case, it is always a pleasure for me to read your posts and a greater pleasure that you take the time to explain so well what I have missed. I am beholding to you.

    And from where I stand, there are some things which cannot be handled appropriately (by humans), no matter how long one studies to be an electrician. ;) I believe, last time I looked, that judging souls is one of them.

    I will concede, however, hawk, that I am have met some electricians in my time who thought they were in possession of some very special powers. They ended up with burned hands. I felt sorry that this had happened because they could no longer work as electricians and because electromagnetics -- for me anyway -- is such an intriguing field of endeavour.

    Let me ask this: can a butterfly perform brain surgery? Can a brain surgeon alight on mere gossamers of petals and colour and light? Are we all not born with unique gifts? Has anyone ever been born with the gift of judging souls? Please show me that person because, as you no doubt have surmised, I have a few questions about my own soul.

    But perhaps we will not agree on this matter of souls. Particularly in times such as these when someone like Ayatollah Mohammad Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi can and does attribute divinity in a mystic and very special way to KM and AN, one wonders if this is a case of 'who' and not of 'if.' That is, who gets to wield divine power; not if someone gets to wield divine power?

    (A variation of Orwell perhaps? Some people are more divine than others?)

    To each his own path.

  35. continued from previous post...

    As for my path: it does not include judging souls. Nor does it assume that I or any other human should ever be mistaken for the divine. Lucky thing too, for would I ever sleep?

    As for judging behaviour -- ie, judging the behaviour of electrons travelling through conductors -- or the behaviour of people who rape and kill -- well, that is a whole other thing: it is the behaviour that is being judged, not the soul.

    Yes, this is so true. Thank you for reminding me. I would like to add here that I trust that you will be as gracious with them in answering questions as you have been with me. I have so appreciated your taking the time to explain things to me, particularly as I know how busy you are. And I have so appreciated the spirit of acceptance with which you have greeted me.

    By the same token, I respect that some of what you say is intended for other ears. And therefore I do not take any of this personally.

    Ah, intentions... ;)

    In the spirit of the outstretched hand, hawk -- may yours never hurt. Keep safe, eat well, and sleep once in a while.

  36. Machiavelli Member

  37. Dro Member

  38. Machiavelli Member

    That is well understood.

    Nevertheless, as an official in an important function you need to be "informed" in a very general sense. And from a certain point on, you will find yourself unable to ignore, what you'd like to ignore so much.

    I was refering mainly to that hard knowledge, where evasion was simply not possible anymore, try as you might.

    And of course: Karroubi's letter is the killing strike for the Islamic Republic. After that letter, there is only acceptance or open denial left. Evasion is no more an option.

    Those, who are willing to go from passive evasion to active open denial will ultimately need to be dealed by force. Hopefully it will be only a handful of the most fanatic.
  39. Dro Member

    I agree. Of course, the governement is not going to let this stand uncontradicted. We have already seen how Larijani, after spending an entire evening of his valuable time on an in-depth investigation of the rape charges declared them to be "all lies". There is going to be all manner of attemps to discredit Karoubi and the witnesses and to change the subject. But the cat is still going to remain out of the bag.

    That is only true if they are prepared to use force to fight for their views, and there are probably just a handful of fanatics who are willing to do that. Most people who realize that they hold a very impopular minority view will tend to simply shut up about it. So not everyone needs to be convinced. 75% or more will do.

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