Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by Zhongjianren, Sep 24, 2011.
OT VIII + refund/repayment request = Scientology "security risk".
There's no such thing as a "radiology exam."
If you mean x-rays, lol.
You're not thinking hard enough. Tell me, do you think Scientology might benefit from any insurance policy it might have organised to have issued to a cult member?
I have never heard of such happening before.
Some poor woman killed herself. We don't know why. We don't know that it was murder, so be careful with your speculation.
People who cut or burn their skin for emotional reasons usually want to see the skin as it's being cut or burned.
Well, Scientology is always worse than you think and one way to bring it down is to follow the money. But, really, I'm just speculating on speculating. I've been reading up on dead peasants. Wouldn't put it past them
We don't know that it was suicide either.
OK, then this is how I see it working out.
Your disaffected friend is with you and they trust you and so you phone the "Church" and they tell you to "terminatedly handle it" and you know what that means so you have the garage set up ready with the hose pipe and duct tape. You slip some of their sleeping pills into their cup of tea and they nod off and you carry them to the car in the garage. If they are not fast asleep you get them to take another drink of the sleeping mixture then you sit them in and start the engine and sprinkle the pills around the seat to PROVE that they definitely committed suicide. They took sleeping pills to kill themselves AND gassed themselves as well.
But the duct tape will be loaded with fingerprints, especially on the sticky surface. And it will be wiped clean of fingerprints inside the car and on the outside of the tape.
While the facts of the case are not known, we need to demand an investigation.
That was what I was thinking too especially if she had a brain scan done. That's one powerful magnet.
This second one is way cool!
An MRI machine will rip ferromagnetic earrings out of your ears. But it won't cause scalp burns.
open weave cap & sunburn? After all she was in Florida. Maybe on some kind of RPF duty outside she gets sunburned scalp and heat stroke. Clams panic and ship her off.
If she used to come there often, it could be possible that she knew. Schluter owns and lives on a horse farm, Biggi was a vet, Biermann apparently used to be or still is married to Schluter (according to comments on maarty place), both longterm hard core scilons. Schluter has kids.
A body that died of exhaust gases is horrible to look at. As mentioned above, I guess a vet would know how horrible. Looks like a punishment to her friend, or maybe she hoped that her friend would hear the motor and safe her. If it was a suicide after all.
I don't know if the Booker Prize has ever been awarded to an Anonymous collective, but I'd like to nominate this thread for best fiction.
Another thing you have to bear in mind is that a lot of scilons could be under a constant state of hypnosis due to all the auditing they have had and suggestion could have a profound effect on them. So suppose they get phoned up by a C/S from Flag who keeps repeating....
You must TERMINATEDLY handle this....
You must TERMINATEDLY handle this....
You must TERMINATEDLY handle this....
....and the PC is listening this and obeying what he thinks is the auditing command.....
I must terninatedy handle....
I mush terninatedly ha......
I mush terninatedly....
I mush terminat.....
I mush terminate.....
I must terminate....
I must Terminate....
I must TERminate...
I must TERMINATE...
I must TERMINATE
I Must TERMINATE
I MUST TERMINATE
....and then you can easily see how things could get out of hand.
I'm less concerned about the speculation going on, (after all, it's just speculation, and compared to the speculation on MartyWorld that she was subjected to 'PDH Handling' by the evil 'Psychs', it's pretty tame,) than I am about having the 'sources' for information and the main 'investigators' being Marty Rathbun and Mike Laws.
Especially when the story, that's been out there since July, keeps changing.
Mike Laws on ESMB: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...BIGGI-Reichert&p=617182&viewfull=1#post617182
"My second response on this thread was a misdirector for OSA. I did go to Germany and met with the researchers and did my own research on this. I didnj't want to hassle with OSA while talking to people.
Something is very wrong on this whole scenereo, I don't want to discuss all the details yet, but anyone having any real information on this would be greatly appreciated. Please see my other post in response to Marty's thread, I have also made more comments on Marty's blog both concerning my relationship with her and some of the circumstances. There is a tremendous amount of data coming to light, but the pieces don't fit well together right now."
Apparently it's time to freewheel in our brainstorming session: While at Flag, maybe she was tortured with alkali metals. Tiny pieces of metal dropped on her head. They definitely cause deep burns on the skin:
Its pretty clear she was freebasing and then decided to kill herself......silly tinfoils....
YOU don't know for sure that she killed herself.
The evil psychs did it!
This makes no sense. and an OTVIII would KNOW that, and know that it was utterly useless to go to flag just to demand a refund they wouldnt get. Might as well stay home / go full-tilt suppressive and demand refund for what they would get you.
Makes more sense for an OTVIII who is not growing disenchanted enough to wake up, to go to flag feeling entitled enough to demand FREE repair services, to fix what didnt go right in her OT levels.
And i would suspect demanding free services = the same security risk as demanding a refund.
I. ALLEGED SUICIDES WHILE RECEIVING SCIENTOLOGY SERVICES
1. Quentin Hubbard died from carbon monoxide poisoning in 1977, from a hose hooked to the tailpipe of his car. Quentin was L. Ron Hubbard's second son, OT7, and a Class 12 auditor.
2. Flo Barnett a.k.a. Miller died from several gunshot wounds. She was David Miscavige's mother-in-law. Just before her death she was reported to have had an argument with David Miscavige and threatened to go public and sue Scientology.
3. Noah Lottick jumped to his death in New York, May 11, 1990, one block from the 46th St. Scientology org.
4. Rodney Ramando jumped to his death at the L.A. org in 1986.
5. James Stewart jumped to his death in Edinburgh Scotland. He was on OT3, a class 7 auditor, and the Executive Director of the Durban Org.
6. Lila Leighton Brown jumped to her death in San Francisco while a public PC in 1978.
7. An individual (name unknown) jumped to his death from the Hanover bank building in New York City circa 1981-3.
8. An older woman from Switzerland jumped to her death off the pier in Clearwater while on the OT levels. Immediately after her suicide the GO sent a bunch of people to the RPF.
9. John Colletto, SO staff, became psychotic and suicidal while on OT3. Very shortly afterward he shot his wife, Diane Colletto, to death. This occurred in 1979 in front of ASHO in LA. Shortly afterward he killed himself. The GO made great efforts to keep the whole event silent.
10. Bob Schafner was on OT3 and having problems. He rode a bike under a truck, dying instantly, in 1987 or 1988.
11. In 1975 a man in LA shot himself to death with a rifle while on OT3.
12. Gene Trout, OT7, L10, 11, 12.
13. Jim Hester, Miami, Florida.
14. Jane Winkler, OT7.
15. Martina Douglas committed suicide at East Grinstead, England.
16. David Baker, OT3, Tech Sec at East Grinstead, 1984.
17. Lee Johnstone, GO staff, was "baby watched" before he committed suicide at East Grinstead in 1985.
18. Rita Smith, at East Grinstead, 1987.
19. Steven Craine, at East Grinstead.
20. Susan Meister shot herself to death aboard the Apollo in 1971 after an intense argument with Hubbard.
21. David Sandweiss was murdered after refusing to commit suicide. Guardian's Office Agent David Sandweiss was ordered to kill himself using Process R2-45 (a bullet to the head) after he had broken into a psychiatrist’s office in the Las Vegas area and was caught in 1977. When he refused to commit suicide, he was murdered by two Guardian’s Office agents who forced him to take a gun to his own head. David’s wife Lisa Sandweiss, the sister of Lavenda Van Schaick, witnessed this murder as she was hiding in the bushes in the front of their Las Vegas home. On May 27, 1996, Lavenda Van Schaick spoke out about this murder and asked to add some additional data to the Internet. She disclosed that in 1977, when she was on post as Ethics Officer at the Las Vegas Org, David Sandweiss told her in an ethics cycle (not only as her brother-in-law) that he had been the lover of Quentin Hubbard, who was L. Ron Hubbard's gay son. Lavenda believes that L. Ron Hubbard murdered his son Quentin, bypassing his wife Mary Sue Hubbard, who at the time was the head of the Guardian's Office. Lavenda claims that L. Ron Hubbard murdered Quentin because of his homosexuality. This theory explains why Mary Sue and L. Ron Hubbard were estranged for the last eight years of Hubbard's life. After David Sandweiss confided in Lavenda that he had been Quentin's lover, Lavenda refused to give the Guardian's Office David's name. Several days later, Lavenda was brutally raped by two Guardian's Office agents named Artie Maren and Bob Harvey at the Las Vegas home of Guardian's Office agents Chuck and Mattie Reese. Lavenda's six year old daughter Sabrina was kidnapped and held by the Guardian's Office for three days. Lavenda herself was driven in a white Volkwagen van to an undisclosed location and brutally raped, beaten, kicked in the uterus, urinated upon, was drugged with sodium pentothal and rendered unconscious. Lavenda believes the purpose of the rape and beatings was to force her to give the Guardian's Office the name of Quentin's lover. One week later David Sandweiss was visited by two Guardian's Office agents who ordered David to put a gun to his head and blow his brains out. Lisa witnessed this outside their home while she was hiding in the bushes. Lisa Sandweiss herself was the victim of a brutal rape after her son Ricky was born. David Sandweiss' death was ruled a suicide by the coroner. So was Quentin's.
22. A woman who "drowned" in a bathtub at Flag.
23. Ernie (last name unknown) was a Scientology suicide in 1978 or 1979 in LA.
24. Laura (last name unknown), girlfriend of Skip Press, committed suicide in 1986 or 1987.
25. D. Dewhurst, a public PC, committed suicide in his car behind the Vancouver, Canada Scientology mission.
26. There is a report that an individual who had just gone clear committed suicide in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
27. Quentin Schnehager, a Copenhagen staff member, hung himself just before a Sea Org mission was to arrive in his organization.
28. A London public PC threw himself in front of a train while depressed during auditing.
29. Karen Fuller died on course while on OT3.
30. Paulette Cooper's book reports a person who left a suicide note emphasizing that it had "nothing to do with Scientology."
31. Hubbard claimed that a publisher committed suicide by jumping from a window after reading Excalibur, the early version of the OT Levels.
32. A friend of Ari Salonen's committed suicide in Stockholm.
33. Michael Leube, a 10-year Scientologist and sea org member committed suicide in July, 1989.
V. ALLEGATIONS OF ATTEMPTS BY SCIENTOLOGY TO GET MEMBERS TO COMMIT SUICIDE.
61. Steve Fishman, a former GO/OSA operative, reports that after he was caught by the government in 1986, he was ordered to commit suicide to save Scientology from being exposed for crimes he had committed on their behalf.
62. John Breedlove was at Scientology's Flag land base in the 1970's. He told his mother he was told by Scientology to commit suicide and that Scientology could get anyone to commit suicide if they wanted. He did commit suicide after he left Scientology.
63. One of Hubbard's first wives, Sara Northrup Hubbard, appears to have been coerced by Hubbard to try to commit suicide to protect his reputation.
64. Did the same thing happen to L. Ron Hubbard Jr. after he left Scientology?
65. Jaime Lee Nureyev, the ex-wife of Steven Fishman, was run over and killed by Marc Aronow, driving a Green Jeep, on December 29, 1993 in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, one week after she agreed to testify on Steve Fishman's behalf in the Fishman / Geertz case in Los Angeles. Miami Scientologist Ivan Durekovich boasted on the Internet in January of 1996 that he had met with Jaime Lee Nureyev before she was murdered, yet refused to elaborate when asked to disclose the reason for the meeting.
VI. ALLEGATIONS OF ATTEMPTED SUICIDES WHILE RECEIVING SCIENTOLOGY SERVICES
66. Mary Sue Hubbard, L Ron Hubbard's wife, 1954, 1980-1981.
67. L. Ron Hubbard threatened to commit suicide if one of his girlfriends didn't marry him. Later during his auditing on various levels he went through suicidal periods.
68. Quentin Hubbard attempted suicide before he actually killed himself. One such attempt was a drug overdose.
69. Peter Lewis, ED of the LA Org, was locked up by Scientology for days after his suicide attempt.
70. Manfred Eichorn attempted suicide at East Grinstead in 1991, then was "baby watched."
71. Lawrence Wollersheim attempted suicide immediately after receiving L-12 and other upper level auditing.
72. Margery Wakefield.
73. Robert Hart, 1971.
74. Ari Salonen, 1982, Finland.
75. Sandy Fuller.
76. (first name unknown) Anderson.
77. Hana Eltringham, now Hana Whitfield.
78. Paulette Cooper's book mentions an individual who became psychotic and suicidal on OT3 and committed himself to avoid suicide.
79. Robert Kaufman (from Paulette Cooper's book).
80. Monica Pignotti, who was Quentin Hubbard's auditor when they were both in the RPF (Rehabilitation Project Force). Quentin was L. Ron Hubbard's homosexual son. He told Monica Pignotti that he was not gay, although David Sandweiss, Quentin's lover, admitted to his sister-in-law and Ethics Officer Lavenda Van Schaick that he was having an affair with Quentin. Monica Pignotti has stated that Quentin intended to leave Scientology and go off on his own. Both the deaths of Quentin and Sandweiss were officially reported as suicides.
81. Mario (last name unknown).
82. Cooper's book mentions another individual who threatened suicide but didn't because he was afraid it would invalidate Scientology.
83. In 1992 a Toronto male public pc jumped off the Bloor/Dansforth viaduct.
Her tinfoil hat malfunctioned!
So this woman who is OT VIII presumable knew about Hubbard's fake PhD and that he claimed to have been up in the Van Allen belt and that he had been to Venus where he was nearly run over by a freight locomotive and she hands over all her money to this group in the hope that it will fix her unwanted conditions and make her life better.
This is my message to all Scientologists: You are breathing my air. Get on and do what you have to do.
Will there be garlic?
As to insurance fraud, I doubt it. Insurance investigators are pretty hard nosed.
If when questioned at Flag "it read" on "Have you ever seriously thought about or attempted suicide?" or however that question is worded and it turned out she had attempted suicide and told them then they would have gotten shot of her the way they did. And it seems like she knew the place where she offed herself well so she could have done the hose pipe job easily enough. And as for the pills, the hose pipe might not have been fast enough for her and she needed some help. And as for then burns then maybe she wanted to look as good as possible and did her hair with a curling iron the night before.
It would have been obvious if she had died from carbon monoxide poisoning in the car. Very obvious.
Move along folks, there's nothing for you here. Just be assured that there is one less person breathing your air and using up the precious resources of this planet.
bear in mind that all we know about the autopsy report is what we've heard from Marty. Right?
Including the Psych induced 3rd degree burns to her scalp.
Why he hasn't published the actual scans of the documents he's basing his tale on is beyond me, except, come to think about it, Marty is always a little slow to show *real* documents...
I copypastad the first line of your comment on Marty's blog. Not surprisingly, the comment wasn't approved.
1) fast ethics interview, program to return home and handle finances
2) if she originated suicide she would have been put on a suicide watch at Flag
3) when she was home became overwhelmed by debts and took her own life
4) ethics messed up, she should have had an auditing session
no, handle per policy
no, in session asap
no, handle, handle, handle
unless . . . .
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