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The Main Scilon PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flies

Discussion in 'Leaks & Legal' started by Faceless Truth, Jun 26, 2008.

  1. AnonMSW Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    Well good, I much prefer it when that happens!
  2. overt Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    I'm not naive or misinformed about scientology or what they're capable of.

    But I'm not going to start behaving anything 'like OSA' and justifying my behaviour because that's what they do. I wouldn't feel alright about myself and, more importantly, I'd probably be crap at it.

    The letter I proposed was dry (entertained me anyway) and I felt covered all bases.

    If a letter's sent I would feel that was fair, might piss someone there off, can be perhaps cited at some point to journalists who quoted Keenan as having been a marine - (suggest to them to re-interview him on the matter perhaps or to make checks to find out if what they wrote is factually correct). If it gets answered (doubtful) it would be interesting.



    And
    Anon2487 (or whoever's got an account) -

    Have you posted on the Marines website details of Enturb and the next Global Protest? May as well since you're there. If Bob brings his fly-swatter we might need backup - Anon.s that can abseil down buildings and through windows might be useful.
  3. Anne Ominous Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    BUMP

    I disagree with Overt. We are here to completely dissolve the cult of Scientology. They are categorically aware of that and will set out to do everything they can to destroy you. You already know this, so wake up and smell the roses. We are here to win, not to pussyfoot around with usable info. If you don't like it, go to OCMB.

    Any advance on this Anon 2487?
  4. anon2487 Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    Only lots of folk on ESMB (some who knew him very well) saying that whilst he talked fairly extensively about the fire service, they never once heard him mention the RM.

    Other than that, waiting to hear back from the Director of Naval Personnel's office, though obviously that will happen at bureaucracy-speed...

    Generally though, dodgy record is looking decidedly dodgy.
  5. Anne Ominous Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    The fact that no-one on the RM forum recognised him is very dodgy too...

    This guy is very VERY high up; making him ineffective would lead to win.
  6. anon2487 Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    To be fair, still waiting for the thread to be moved to the "naked roll matt fighting" forum where most of the oldskool Booties post.
  7. Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    Suggest that the word "Opposition Research" be looked up in Wikipedia, since that is basically what one and all are discussing at this point in the thread. It is a very professional activity -- carefully studying the opposition. There is even such a thing as a "Vulnerability Study" which someone can have done on themselves to see what dirt the enemy is going to come up with on themselves so they can prepare their rebuttal in advance. That's a called a "prebuttal." I'm not saying to do this, but Anonymous could literally hire a professional to do legal Opposition Research on whoever they wanted to learn about. Again, I am not suggesting that this be done, I am just pointing out that this is an existing profession and is not uncommon.
  8. anon2487 Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    ^^^Definitely better post edit...I thought you were about to get another "virtual kicking" for advocating dodginess. :grin:

    Open Source Intelligence collection might be a more appropriate discipline to read up on: can be used to the same ends, but sticks to the straight vanilla methods.

    In addition, the most accessible+valuable information tends to be in people's heads, so understanding, practising and then using basic intelligence elicitation techniques will let you get the real money-shots.
  9. Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    You made some very good points with those terms, thank you.
  10. overt Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    I think you've misunderstood. I don't completely disagree with you. As I said before:

    "he (Bob) has chosen a job in the public eye that's purpose is to inform and influence. He is using his past employment record to gain trust, to impress and to validate himself and the organisation. It needs to be checked."


    I'm not moralising. I simply see all cult members as people. I also see them all as both victims and perpetrators in some way. That's all. That's how I view it. And so if you or someone else is posting stuff that's the angle I'm replying from and trying to contribute from.

    As for dismantling scientology - lots of different ways to skin a cat. Yours might sometimes not be the best way, or the most creative or the funniest.

    Am I correct in thinking you believe I shouldn't be posting here if I don't agree with you or express myself the same as you 100%?
  11. QAnon Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    That's how the hivemind views it as well. We actually do make decisions on that basis. Look at the argument that's going on about Woll Smoth's school and whether or not to protest. But if someone has an Oh Exploitable just sitting there, and that person is high enough in the hierarchy where taking him down causes the organization a substantial amount of damage, and that person is in a position to harm Anonymous, then the information has to be used. In this case, all three criteria are valid, so going after him for his Royal Marines statement is...ahem, fair game.

    Sometimes you have to descend to your opponents' methods, you know. It's part of warfare, and this is war.

    Except that the most efficient way to skin a cat is through use of a brick to the head and a flensing knife. It's violent, it's messy, but it gets the job done fast. And there are people here who have no problem wielding the brick or using the knife.

    (NOTE: This is NOT, repeat, NOT an incitement to violence against humans or felines, or even Scientologists for that matter. It is simply a metaphor, albeit a slightly gruesome one. Personally, I've never seen a cat skinned. However, I've seen loads of cattle, hogs, and sheep de-hided. Yeah, it's disgusting as you think.)

    No. Your objections will be noted, digested, and incorporated into the hivemind's decision. Bawwwwwing about it after the fact, though, is bad form.
  12. AnonMSW Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    ^ can has brick nao?
  13. Anne Ominous Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    AAAND....Back on target.
  14. Massive Arity Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    A bit of TL;DR going on this thread, but in case it hasn't been said:

    More than attacking the cult 'in general', if you plan to gather up information and discredit individuals, make sure your facts are air fucking tight. The public and law enforcements gives us leniency when we make claims/criticisms about the organization as a whole, but remember, any non factual defaming claim made against an individual can be grounds for libel and royally fucks us in the yes of the public.

    Triple, neh, quadruple check your god damn facts if you're going to gather intel on individuals.
  15. AnonMSW Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    ^ absolutely, which is why we need to return to high standard of only "disseminating" facts outside of the context of our discussions here regarding our investigations. Going after individuals requires that it be done completely from a factual basis. You state facts to support inferences which impugn / support someone's character when they rely on their personal history as justification for why others should believe them.

    This isn't about character assassination, it's about exposing what people have said on the record to appropriate scrutiny with the requisite investigative cynicism that $cientology's history has taught us is required.
  16. Anne Ominous Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    ^This. But we're not sitting on it when it's confirmed.
  17. AnonMSW Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    I'd say I would hold off until we find out what's under the rock, and which beetles and grubs we're gonna smash and which look like tasty treats. Would I cry if we turned up pictures of David Miscavige mainlining heroin? Would I say, "No fair! We can't show that to the world!"

    Heh... would I? You do the math. :smile:

    At the end of the day, it's a rare person who can stand up to the scrutiny of people actively digging into their lives. If you don't believe me, just ask any agent of OSA.

    We talk a lot about not "becoming them" with reference to developing our own tactics. People can deny the significance of the channers and /b/ all they want to, but it seems impossible to deny to myself that "dox or stfu" and "digging dirt" on individuals was a large part of the culture from which this most recent incarnation of the "War Against Scientology" began.

    Information acquisition and analysis are our "ancestral" forte and there has been a lot of wandering away from acknowledging that legacy and honoring its origins. This isn't meant to turn into a tl;dr on Anonymous thinking as I see it, but $cientology sets a very low baseline of "acceptable" behavior.

    We don't Fair Game, we expose Truth. There is a difference, and in this case to an outside observer there is a clear contextual difference between what it is that we do, and the actions of the $cientology corporation and its subsidiaries. When the time comes to pick whether to release "juicy tidbits" that we inevitably will find, as a previous poster said, I'm sure whether or not to use it and how will be near-instantly apparent to the Hivemind.
  18. musketeerwang Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    We know, thanks.

    Being in the UK, it's probably worse than you think. Our libel laws are a nightmare.
  19. overt Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    I completely agree we need to know who is what/what their role is in scientology and who they are attached to in other organisations. I think attaching ourselves to the people they are influencing and outing their real agenda would be part of an effective counter attack.

    I agree if there is any hard evidence of illegalities they should be reported.

    Problem I still have with the continuing idea of 'taking out' individuals - (and I'm still not sure exactly what sick little fantasies some of you are running on this, so maybe I'm jumping the gun) however:

    Scientology is obedience training and lies.

    Which scientologists are you going to decide are ok to expose what 'truths' about? the ones that were the most diligent and the best at being scientologists? the ones who worked the most effectively and were the most committed to the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics?

    So that would be the biggest most fucked up victims then.

    When a scientologist engages in fair game they do so because they are trained to. If you decide to 'fair game' an individual scientologist you are attacking a victim from a position of freedom.
  20. QAnon Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    If they are actively attempting to harm Anonymous, yes. Anonymous is the Seventh Dynamic. Collectively, we may be damn close to being the Eighth Dynamic. We are working for the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics in anything we do.

    The biggest, most fucked-up victim of Scientology is David Miscavige. Any disagreement about going after him?

    And your point is?
  21. overt Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    My point was at the beginning of the post that you chose to selectively unquote.

    You're trying to score points rather than look at the ideas put forward.
  22. overt Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    I just don't think you actually need to, but what exactly are you proposing to do?
  23. AnonMSW Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    When the "Target" ("Victim" is disempowering) becomes the "Abuser," then they are a valid "Target" for exposure. For example if you will recall, John Carmichael's infamous "I thmell puthy" episode received wide distribution on the Internet. Publishing that video could, in extremely conservative / $cientology circles, be seen as "character assasination."

    Some individual made the choice to "expose" Charmichael's abuses and put it on YouTube.

    Abuse is abuse, and it's not hard to draw a line. If a man is the PR front guy for $cientology and using his social cachet to their advantage, then everything he says is suspect and subject to exposure if he's fabricating the "truth."

    It's not complex, Overt. I no longer can agree with your statement that we are in fundamental agreement. This is very cut and dried, and it's not at all hard to figure out. We "expose" individual $cientologists to public ridicule each time there is a "raid" on a "stress test" table / cart.

    It's already being done, and your being "on the fence" about it seems to be dragging out far longer than seems reasonable. I'm not saying stfu, not yet, but clearly the vast majority of opinion seems to "get it" where you consistently and repeatedly do not.

    Your concerns have been duly noted and will be taken into consideration by those who feel them justified. Why continue to beat your drum?
  24. overt Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    Thanks for a reply - I totally agree regarding the PR guy lying needing to be checked out- as stated in my previous posts.

    They are both victims and perpetrators.

    Because I feel really strongly about showing people in scientology some compassion.

    People posting thick humourless personal attacks against individual scientologist they have had absolutely no personal dealings with, is not ridiculing humour in response to an attack. It is simply an attack. There is a difference.

    Thanks for noting it. It's appreciated.
  25. Qball Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    "We were just following orders" is not a valid defense for their actions, and ultimately they must face the consequences for what they do (or fail to do).

    It is, of course, relative to their rank within the CoS.

    The rank-and-file, the zombies, they'll have to live with the shame and guilt of what they were a part of. Hurt feelings from Anonymous' enturbulation is sufficient. If all they come away with is a bruised ego, empty wallet, and an embarrassing chapter of their life, they should count their blessings and move on. At least they will have made it out alive. Not everyone will have been so lucky.

    The OSA and other strong-arms, the supervisors who call the shots at the local level and the cult's upper management, they deserve to be identified and held accountable. They are the ones who have committed (or were silent witnesses to) the enumerable abuses of its members, who handed down Fatwas on any person who looked at them cross-eyed, and made a mockery of the law. To hell with them. They deserve no compassion, no reprieve, and no mercy.
  26. tazor Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    Exactly! OSA wouldn't hesitate to out any of our crimes, and if they couldn't find any they would make some up. They need to answer for their very real crimes.

    Know your enemy people and do NOT blink!
  27. noclamsonme Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    They have this, it's been a part of the INCOMM system for over a decade now. Any modern intelligence agency has to use computers to help manage the information deluge, OSA is no different from the CIA or NSA in that regard. They use them to identify their enemies, cross reference them with each other & to track down leaks on the inside.

    Dan Garvin: What Really Happened at Scientology's secret INCOMM facility

    Chuck Beatty: My INCOMM experience
  28. AnonMSW Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    ^this!! And we have a discrete number of targets with definite identities and "myths" already established. Screw this mamby pamby "no fly zone" shite people keep spouting about singling out individual $cientologists from scrutiny! Quite frankly, between the deluded Scilebrities and the razor sharp front men on the inside, I see no way this entire gameplan can be moved forward without ensuring that we've challenged every untrue word or stretch of the resume imagination!

    These people are "fair game," and it's open season on data collection folks. Perhaps this bothers some, and if misused I can comprehend why, but the reality is that $cientology is built on a paper thin, mostly personally vouched for by other $cientologists "references" as a point of "expertness" in an organization which till now has had a literal WALL of secrecy surrounding it. NOBODY bothered to look at the credentials of "higher ups" because no media outlet wanted to have to fuck around with the lawsuits and bullshit "cease and desist orders" from $cientology lawyer lackeys.

    We're in a whole new ballgame here people. NOBODY who isn't a $cientologist takes anything "those people" have to say without backup. It's time to begin to seriously digg into the backgrounds and levels of honesty of every major $cifag in the world and to find out just how much of what they say is Truth, and how much has been invented in a need to ceaselessly provide "wins" to corroborate $cientology's cover story.

    These people aren't "collateral damage," they're valid "military targets," and we should be focusing a 10 million candlepower bulb on every word that comes out of their mouths.
  29. Hatonymous Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    So...have we dug up any juicy harpoons yet? I'm all for using them, but so far this thread seems to have veered a bit off target by becoming a morality fight with little actual ammo dug up.
  30. musketeerwang Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    The rumration thread dried up with no result, OP has been making enquiries, including asking Keenan what service he undertook. The agonising is pointless IMO, and in this case unwarranted - the subject of the thread IS a PR guy. If anyone's open for fact-checking, it's him. Stop the bawing.
  31. Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    Thank you,
    THIS THREAD IS NOW ABOUT :

    Bob Keenan

    Nexis access hopefully arranged.
    Please continue.
  32. AnonMSW Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    So ok, whatever happened with the checking his military background? Dox pl0x.
  33. Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    Docs don't come quick from the MOD. However, this may be a sign that there aren't any.
  34. anon2487 Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    Cool, I can post again - couldn't due to retardulation.org living up to it's name.

    Don't know about anyone else, but update on the bits I've done:

    No joy with the Director of Naval Personnel's office...even if someone never got closer to the Navy than bathtime as a kid, they still need that person's consent to confirm as much.

    Spoke with their media department, who gave some good advice on posssible public interest issues that would float the MOD's boat.

    Contacted the photographic archivist at the RM museum to see if they have complete sets of named "passing out" photos, as this would have been a good way of proving/disproving the guy's status. Unfortunately their coverage of the period in question is patchy, but they have suggested another method that whilst long-winded, would be similarly conclusive (want to keep it off the board for now).

    Rather than spending eons on it yet, it'd make sense to write to Mr Keenan so that he can "clarify" his position. As Boris says he can always claim that the paper misquoted him, which would put a bit of a dampener on this line of enquiry. [Wanted to do it before, but couldn't f**ing post].

    Can email and phone securely, but this would be better to get in writing IMO. If anyone's willing to send and receive said mail, t'would be handy. If you're in Londinis there'll definitely be an accomodation address/secretarial service/backstreet internet caff that'll do this with no ID needed (given the purpose, and that it's a single item of mail). Draft proposed letter in thread, get legalfag to okay it so it's not in anyway libelous etc.?

    Thinkts?

    Oh as a PS, the PMRC bit..er...that actually may be my mistake. I spoke to a couple of people that know/used to work with him and whilst I was careful not to ask leading questions, I did try and nail down some specifics by qualifying the person who had good info's answer [but introduced the term]...not that it changes the essence of what was said.
  35. AnonMSW Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    To the extent that the other "doable" things to discredit him aren't onerous, I would invest the time in having more evidence if in fact he's lying. Why give him a preemptive chance to change his story, or more to the point since he's likely being fed this thread... why let him not live with the knowledge that it's under scrutiny whilst we dig?
  36. anon2487 Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    Me personally? Based on a fair amount of digging, I'm extremely confident that he's lying.

    Can we prove that he didn't receive his Green Beret? Yup...it can be done: the dox are there, but 'cos of the nature of them it will be reeeally time-consuming, we've exhausted the easy options. That's why myself, I'd like to give him an opportunity to state his position first. If he ignores the (recorded delivery?) letter, it strongly suggests that he doesn't take issue with the paper's line. Equally if he writes back saying "yup I was a RM," then we've got a cut and dried statement to work with. The point is, I can spend a lot of time proving that he couldn't have passed out as a RM, only to have him say it was a misquote (or similar) in the first place. Rather get that out the way for now.
  37. AnonMSW Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    OK, go for it. What are you planning on saying in the letter (copypasta pl0x if you want 2nd opinions), and who is going to mail it and give a return address?
  38. Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    TBH I'd document you sealing the letter cleanly somehow so they don't try and pull some BS claim with it.

    Dr. Lily Von Macab has Nexis access, I'd dropped a request in one of their threads if s/he hasn't contacted whoever it was asking yet, PM them.
  39. Anon-007 Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    Just a quick thought.

    Why not get a 'friendly' journo (if we have any) to write a letter asking him the questions? Here's why:

    1. It's an independent third party (so more reliable)
    2. He's more likely to answer
    3. He'll be less suspicious (unless he reads this thread)
    4. Less chance of being name fagged etc

    If we haven't got a friendly journo, what about getting John Sweeney's team at the BBC to do it?

    After all, it could be the base for a very lucrative story for someone.
  40. anon2487 Member

    Re: The Main Scifag PR Man in UK Thinks That Dealing With Anons is Like Swatting Flie

    Cheers dude. Will see what happens on the lettermajiggamejig front and then PM them.

    Good thinking Batman! Depending on the response (or lack of), it could be the way to go.

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