The Hubbard Virus

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by exOT8Michael, Jul 21, 2008.

  1. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    The tech teaches to take over and control everything and everyone using any means. Based on that, I'd say this thread isn't so far off the tracks it can't be set to rights.
  2. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    No, I get the epistemology and it is simple - there is a difference between judgment and discernment. You are straying into the metaphorical, as the very concept of judgment is decision as contrasted with clarity of perspective.

    The semantics are really getting in the way, and I'm not sure we are even disagreeing on anything.

    We must make "judgments" (discernment) in the sense of personal decisions based on what we know as individuals, but I am speaking of "judgments" as social controls, which are not limited by individual knowledge, experience or reasoning, but collective (allowing for checks and balances, areas of expertise, etc.), executed through governance (laws, mores).

    No I didn't forget. I just have completely no idea why you would be asking such a thing, and in particular why you are asking me.

    I could probably make something up based on my limited knowledge, or play devil's advocate considering 'engrams' aren't something I use in my understanding of human experience. But if you want to discuss it, I recommend talking to a Free Zoner in a forum where it wouldn't be off-topic.
  3. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    No. Just my opinions. The earlier stuff has a different flavour to me. Less controlling and dictatorial. Like I said. Good days and bad days, but later it was mostly bad days. The people on his ships with him have some real horror stories. A madman.
  4. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Derailment fix'd.
  5. Anoanominous Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

  6. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus


    Have you read Mein Kampf? I think you'd like it.
  7. Phil-Anon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    There seems to be a camp occupied by Robert S and King Nerd (and others) that says "If Hubbard touched it, it is WRONG and EVIL, full stop." I'm sure he said "good morning" or "I love you" or "have a nice day" at some point in his life - does that make those automatically evil?

    That "What is Greatness" essay is a pile of truisms, platitudes, and blatant copypasta from real philosophers and spiritualists. It doesn't contain anything original, but it does contain positive ideas. Do you say we should throw it out simply because Hubtard wrote it?

    What about the Co$'s professed "creed"? There seem to be a number of places where LRH ripped off other sources and claimed their insights as his own, but in many cases these still contain good ideas. If rephrasing or resourcing the good idea gets more people to follow it, wouldn't that be something worthwhile to keep?

    And, since nobody bothered to respond to my last post, I'll ask again:
  8. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I am a participant in the private IFA chat group, specifically as an unofficial liaison with Anonymous. Fancy (an ex-Scio FZer from our local raids) put me in touch with them. The coalescing tenet of IFA is to preserve in some theoretical pure form what they believe is the original (positive use of) tech, in contrast to what the CoS does with it these days.

    With there permission, I would post their group's guidelines. Let's just say they expect respect for certain things to be given, but it is based STRONGLY on free association and freedom of thought.

    Interestingly, even within that group, there are the same arguments you see over here about what means what. In fact, there's a fascinating disagreement going on as to whether someone can get the full (or any) benefit from OTIII without belief in 'Incident 2'. Fascinating, actually ... there is a quite POSITIVE meaning to the whole "What is true for you is true" I never understood, where recovered and/or fabricated memories are not to be judged or guided by the auditor. The person's experience is to be neither validated nor invalidated by anyone but themselves. Only the 'charge' of the theoretical memory is dealt with by the process, and the goal seems to be emotional release from some aspect of the psyche's tension.

    Of course this could be used to implant false memories and create experiences that could be interpreted as spiritual revelation and used to subjectively validate the authority of the tech. This is the negative, cult aspect of the tech, and you are somewhat at the mercy of the auditor, which is why it is important to know who you are dealing with and their intentions.

    I could also get into how I believe this type of process works (and the limitations of such processes), but it's much simpler to reference it out to Freudian psycho-analysis if anyone is interested.
  9. Anoanominous Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Stfu, stop contaminating peeps, plz! You are hurting people by perpertuating the lard ass idiot's philosophy
  10. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    If Hubbard WROTE it, full stop indeed.

    Again. Hubbard didn't write that. He stole it from real philosophers and spiritualists, as you said.

    Look at what his followers fucking DO! He ripped off a lot of good ideas... twisted them, and used them to make money and control people.

    I really don't understand your argument. You seem to claim that because Hubbard stole good ideas from other people, he certainly can't be all bad?

  11. Anoanominous Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Yes, because he was a fraud and a sham.
  12. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    If you're starting a major global religion hell-bent on world domination, you might want to come up with an original idea or two and NOT plagerise the medical and philosophical community for all your base materials prior to launch.

    Why did Hubbard hate psyches so much? Because they fucked him over - yeah that's part of it. But the real reason is because he didn't want anyone researching Dianetics/Scientology and finding out that he stole his "tech" from them outright.

    Go home, see a shrink, get a job, marry, fuck, have babies, buy a house, die.

    The tech is not enriching your life - you only think it is. Chuck it out and start with Shakespeare and work forward from there.
  13. Phil-Anon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Obviously you don't - I'm arguing that there are elements in the Scientology belief system that are benign and/or beneficial. I am in NO WAY arguing that Hubbard was anything less than an evil sociopath, or that Scientology as a whole is beneficial. I'm saying that there are some raisins in the shit, even if they're somebody else's raisins in Hubbard's shit. I'm also saying that, in theory, it might be possible to wash away enough of the shit that the raisins can be cleaned and made safe. From yours and Robert S's posts, it would appear that the two of you feel that the raisins have been permanently and irrecoverably contaminated by the shit, and can never be separated from it.

    Personally, I see nothing wrong with at least trying to clean the raisins. That, however, is not our job. Our job is to reveal the shit, and clear away enough of it that those stuck in it can get out and clean themselves off. If they decide to go raisin-hunting afterward, we should probably keep an eye out to make sure they don't bring heaps of shit back with the raisins, but if they want slightly shitty raisins, that's their problem.

    Basically, there's enough stuff in the Co$ that's clearly, black-and-white evil that I don't see why we need to even bother with the stuff that's closer to gray areas.

    I also assert that if (and only if) the principle of infallibility in Hubbard and the "tech" is eliminated, the Co$ could become open to discussion, criticism, debate, and reform. It is unable to change largely because of that one key principle - pull that out and the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

    Wow... Just... wow...
    I had thought I was venturing into strawman territory. You honestly feel that if Hubbard ever wrote "Be nice to everyone and give them cake" that this statement would be inherently evil because it came from Hubbard? How does it feel to live in a world made of absolutes? Is it comfy?

    That's not to mention that an attitude like that goes against one of the core aspects of Anonymous: Judging ideas based on the idea, not on the author. If that "What is Greatness" essay had been posted anonymously, it would undoubtedly have drawn criticisms for being obvious, unoriginal, and not particularly well written, but people would likely agree with many of the ideas espoused therein. Judging the same idea differently because it came out of Hubbard's mouth is a blatant application of the ad hominem fallacy (a favorite practice of the Co$).
  14. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    At the risk of another thread derailment, go for it. :wait:
  15. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I have to admit, it has already happened in the form of a number of Scientology's off-shoots in the last 30+ years. usually smaller, less mafioso cr@p, and a much larger percentage of un- or semi-brainwashed 'public' members, but still cult mentality in the worst ways. Many (but not all) LGATs fall into this category.

    Should we write a blanket warrant for all of them? I say no.
    Should we be aware of their origins and keep a close on on all of them. H3lls yeah.

    I think that's a decent middle ground.

    But I pejoratively accepted the label "wishy-washy" - anyone who knows my protest history knows I have taken a stand. But that does not stop me from being able to see opposing viewpoints on their own turf, and not be open to changing my mind and not seeing things in black and white ... a very dangerous game, which IMO is one of the things I'd like to think we are fighting against.
  16. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I'm not perpetuating his anything. I've seen this for myself.
  17. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Show me something Hubbard wrote HIMSELF that's not harmful in some form.
  18. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I still don't see any relevance, which is why I can't understand why people keep bringing it up. How is their perspective on the nature of their belief "wrong"? leave it to the philosophers; it has nothing to do with fair game, RFP, the IR.

    However, when they pubcly SELL their wares as scientific without credentials or recognition byy the scientific community - in particular those things related to medical fraud ...

    I could care less if engrams are real. If they think auditing cures cancer, they cannot be allowed to CLAIM it without approval.
  19. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Thanks. I figured there was some sort of this kind of justification. I just didn't know the details.
  20. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    There's no proof I can offer over the internet, unless you've got a C-meter hooked up to your computer?

    I must have missed your explanation of why it can't possibly measure a thing. Have you ever even used a meter?

    I don't care what theory says it does nothing. I've steered enough people to enough incidents that the meter saw while they didn't at first, to easily discount ignorant naysaying.

    The meter does what it's supposed to do. Inconvenient truth though that may be.
  21. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Still don't think you're a cultie?

    Your first sentence...

    Tommy Davis: "Just come into the church and make up your own mind."
  22. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Straight answer: YES.

    Cults NEED to contain themselves from criticism or even suggestions for improvement because it means loss of control, and errors see the light of day where the facade of perfection is to be maintained at all times.

    If the CoS somehow managed to break down politically to the point they could no longer label dissent as overts and facts as entheta, it would in many ways simply stop being a cult.
  23. anonymusicz Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Yes, I have actually. A Super Mark VII. And taken it apart to see what it does and how it works.

    It is not theory that it does nothing. There's a reason the label on the bottom says for entertainment purposes only.

    If you put together an experiment to test for something, one can only change one variable at a time, not two. And the e-meter has two variables. Tone arm adjust and the subject.

    It is an ohm meter, measuring skin resistance. That it all. It doesn't measure engrams, or charges, or whatever bullshit you wanna call it.

    And, as for fact, an e-meter registers nothing on me. At least according to two different scientologists doing the stress test, and from my own experiments. Ha ha! I self audited!!

    I have built an e-meter quite some time ago from schematics available. If you provide schematics, or a link, I'll be happy to build one and test it again.

    But, show me some research that shows it measures ANYTHING besides skin resistance. Please, if you don't I'll drop dox once again disproving it...
  24. exOT8Michael Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I really appreciate the quality of the thread postings.
    Thanks also to those who put it back on track.
    Good stuff, guise.
  25. Don Carlo Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I got a tour of the Ft. Harrison in the 1970s, and they hooked me up to an e-meter. I just said my transcendental meditation mantra to myself, and made myself relax. The auditor must have seen a perfect floating needle, because his jaw dropped. I was totally faking. That, and the cheesy fake-history posters on the wall, were so funny I had to bite my lip in front of my relative not to laugh at it all.

    And then, CoS was riding high, with lots of young energetic workers auditing lots of newly joined enthusiastic members, with almost no bad publicity. It must be pathetic now.
  26. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I read a thread on OCMB Where Roland Aldridge answered a bunch of such questions scientifically, but I'm not on OCMB so don't know how to find the thread. There was a direct link to it on another forum.

    I've never met a person that failed to read on the meter.

    The tone arm doesn't read or test anything. It sets range so the needle is visible on the dial. The C meter gets around this by having a circular dial so the needle is always visible, and the tone arm is simply a digital display on the monitor.

    If you're inclined, and interested, go to OCMB and search for the thread, or search Rolands posts. Should be that function. He'll answer much better than I could. He's a scientist, and Class VI auditor.
  27. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    ExOT8Michael, its high time your reposting of this thread got its day in the sun.
  28. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I still don't get the reasoning behind that assertion. Am I missing something?

    "All built into the tech" covers a hundred volumes of stuff on various subjects. You are saying that (apart from the beliefs specifically used in manipulation and policy letters) even the concepts and values borrowed from common sense and other ideologies are somehow 'bad'?

    That's like saying a child molester who uses candy to lure children must have candy that makes you sick. Get rid of candy, and there wont be any more molesters. You think Scientology doesn't have any candy? Every cult has candy of some kind, or else they couldn't recruit. that's why Scientologists can be good people, and believe in the positive values promoted in their 'religion' - mixed in with the coercive cr@p, of course.

    And chew on this:

    Any idea the VARIETY of beliefs systems that are the basis for cult brainwashing? Do you realize that because of the demographics of our culture, most cults in the last 200 years are founded on the BIBLE, including everything from David Koresh to Jonestown? And yet there will be those who argue it is the scripture - the 'root' as you call it - must be destroyed. It's quite popular to blame the Holy Quran as the 'root' of extreme Islamacists, too. And yet others are secular cults, stemming from Das Capital or Mao's Little Red Book. Then there are those in between like Gaia-inspired environmentalism, or quasi-science like Scientology.

    So after we take down DM, how about we go after ideology in general, as it is obviously the 'root' cause of all mankind's problems?
  29. exOT8Michael Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    It is really appreciated. Thanks.
    This is one of the most important threads I ever posted on here.

    The great response almost makes me want to apologize for Rickrolling 400 anons 2 weeks ago...but only almost. Hehe.
  30. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Doesn't matter, its still pseudoscience masquerading as a religion. Neither science nor religion are present. Its brainwashing with a fancy machine. Get out your meter and play along. Its nothing but a measure of skin resistance.
  31. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    "Religion without science is blind; science without religion is lame."
    - Albert Einstein

    And yes, you CAN divide by zero. I figured it out and demonstrated a method to achive it in high school. The teachers were not amused and refused to accept it. A year later, I showed a college math professer and he matter-of-factly said "of course" ...
  32. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    It does depend on the auditor. I was brought in to the org for a visit with the brand new flag trained Golden age of tech trained ethics officer for a mini sec check about 5 years back, and he didn't find anything on me. But I had stuff to hide.

    But I learned to use one myself in the 70's, and found it to be a predictable tool.

    I'm sure a meter can be fooled, and reads obscured, etc, but in a personal auditing session, I can't imagine why someone would do that. Maybe in the CoS because of folder culling, and fair gaming. But privately, where help is the purpose, it would make no sense.
  33. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Nobody here hates Hubbard because he used the word "the" and "and" in his work occasionally. Nor is he hated because he walked upright on two legs. However, Hubbard is hated because he is a corruption with no unique foundation. ALL of his writing/teaching can be eliminated because a) the bad is really bad (like, it kills people type of bad) and has to go b) what's left of the good comes from someone other than Hubbard so he is redundant.

    Hubbard is a flaccid middle-man. He is not needed if you go to the true source. His shit is like reading a high-schoolers report on Catcher in the Rye - it's all been said before.
  34. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I appreciate your enthusiasim to defend the tech, but maybe you've been hanging out with the culties a bit too long?

    Show me something positive Hubbard wrote himself. Something he didn't rip off.
  35. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I'd heard you were somewhat familiar with *chanspeak. Tell me you got the joke. Or, show me this method.
  36. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I understand your point. However, if the meter can be fooled, why trust it with your personal spiritual quest?
  37. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    My roommate's still laughing at me about your double-whammy rickroll, Michael.
  38. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    What you posted may be a little far-fetched, but its the conclusion I came to four years ago when I first decided to see what $cifaggotry was all about. I've hated it ever since... and here I am today doing something about it.

    I haven't heard about this...
  39. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    After catching fragments of things he wrote/said from a discussion a while back on IFA chat, I was very confused about Hubbard. Your above statement makes it clear.

    There are warning about turning Scientology into a cult, and yet he advocated so many of the things that created it just that way.

    He told people not to take him too seriously or believe everything he said, but built an organization around him that unquestioningly obeyed.

    And I see this strange pattern in the few other cult leaders - at least the one's I've researched in enough detail to have an idea what makes them tick. Annoyingly I sometime find myself quoting one or another of them to make a point, as there are some gems among the muck, borrowed or reworded.
  40. exOT8Michael Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Okz sowwy

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