The Hubbard Virus

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by exOT8Michael, Jul 21, 2008.

  1. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Might want to research, "why" they did that.

    FYI... little known fact: The visage of Jesus most popular today is in fact based off the Statue of Zeus at Olympia which was raided and then rebuilt in front or a church as a monument of success and later forgotten. Mistaken identity, by an artist.

    Many of the god you reference are the basis for a multitute of riligions today and/or had a direct effect upon the mythos of Christianity.

    So, how dead are they again? What does "dead" signify? That no one worships them? Or that they still effect human society little to our knowledge unless we do research?
  2. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Which ones?
  3. anonymusicz Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Wicca, Asatru, Neo-Wicca, Druidism...

    Need I go on?
  4. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus


    Whoever you are, you don't need to go on you need to start. How do Zeus, Apollo and Thor have anything to do with the celtic insulated wisdom tradition of the druids? Where is Thor in wicca?? How does 4 examples, poorly cited, equal a multitude?
  5. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Google Statue of Zeus at Olympia and research it's history. It has a direct effect on Christianity.

    As for the wicca... I don't really have the time to explain. Nor feel the need to. Lazy.

    Anyone want to take a shot?
  6. Anonhopeful Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    religious traditions, practices, symbolism, parables//legends//stories, gods and their characteristics, ethical teachings, hierarchical structure e.t.c. all these aspects in religions are often adopted from older religions or forms of pagan worship. and direct similarities between almost all of the religions can often be found as inherent within them all.

    I'm too lazy to give specific examples but surely this is something commonly understood and recognised?
  7. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Actually Zoroastrianism has more to do with Christianity than the misinterpretation of a statue. And that would be one.

    What a bunch of hot air.
  8. Phil-Anon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Yes, because the FDA is so well-funded and well-staffed. There are numerous watchdog groups already for various topics - are they all useless? Without watchdogs, consumer activists, etc., many problems aren't brought to light. These groups are the ones that put pressure on governments to do something about problems. Hell, we are a watchdog group, in a way.
  9. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Regarding us not being "judge and jury" ...

    Nope. You didn't read both paragraphs TOGETHER.

    This is not hair-splitting at all. There is a HUEG difference between being a voice within a group to guide it collectively (Anonymous, public opinion) and forcing ideas to die (censorship, inquisition, etc.).

    The latter is clearly not 'natural law'.

    In other words, the term judge and jury does NOT mean public opinion. It never did.

    Uh, no, that's not what I said at all.

    I am NOT advocating moral relativism, and assuming so is a straw man, though I am not accusing you of doing it deliberately.

    Ironically, I advocated the opposite of what you imply I meant. You took my argument to show restraint and caution over conflicting rights to mean I was excusing crime or not condoning action against it. I was trying to SHOW the grey area by highlighting the conflicting values as NOT being absolute.

    So you are concerned about the medical community being bribed to accept harmful practices or drugs? Happens all the time, but there will always be watchdogs, lawsuits, and public opinion to guide it back on track most of the time (I'm optimistic, not tin-foil hat). That is no excuse - again - for us to play judge and jury, and so there is no further misunderstanding of the term, I mean "PLAY LICENSED MEDCIAL PROFESSIONAL". We have the right to second guess, but let the experts handle it. Our job as citizens in a free society is to WATCH THE WATCHMEN, not be them, unless appointed or recognized as such by society. We cannot pretend we know better than those we entrust to their areas of expertise - we can only question and hold them accountable.

    then again ... there is a streak of vigilantism in me that disagrees with the above, believing a revolution IS necessary from time to time ... :)
  10. Ironhead Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    that's fair and true,

    everything comes from somewhere. chrstians say Amen which some say, actually comes from Amun Ra. although I'm not expert, so I can't say that's absolutely true or not.

    also, an interesting thing an old social studies teacher pointed out to me once. if you look at the ancient egyptians, they left monuments that have withstood time, which tell what their primary concern in life was. death, egyptians spent an enormous amount of energy, preparing for the afterlife, it was all that counted, it was the greatest status you could have. a giant monument or tomb with everything you would ever need in the what will our society's great monuments be, when archiologists are studying us? well we're going to leave behind giant sky scrappers, that all had one purpose, and that's Bucks, cash, deniro, fitting that a so called "religion" like scientology is born in these times. a cult that ultimately covets money and power above all else, which creates status in our society, the same way a good afterlife was the ultimate status in egypt....for me it's sort of an embarrasment that I live in such times.

    what I can say is this. beliefs and practices eventually become out dated and no longer relevant to the day and age we live in. some may argue that's what scientology is trying to do, is be a faith that's relevant to the times. I feel, LRH had something far different in mind....just the money and power aspect to's a circular argument.
  11. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    The cross-pollination between religions is obvious, but a person can't say Apollo = druids without a specific connection. The IDEAS inherent in religion travel throughout incarnations; virgin birth of a hero or savior exists in Christianity and the early persian myths. But are we talking about engrams and Clears or what?
  12. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Um... no? Which is why we don't need a redundant one, which is what a reformed CCHR would be.
  13. Ironhead Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

  14. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Actually, you're incorrect I think. The Christian god came from the Jewish tribes. Yahweh, the flaming tornado, the pillar of light. (based off Ra if I recall) We was one of a number of gods they worshiped originally. ( all born from the mother god, the god of water? I forget her name) Zoroastrianism may predate Ra by about 200 years, but I doubt they had similar bases. (same concept, different cultures)

    I was more so giving an example of how religions live on, by emulation, interpretation of past mythos. Taking thought, ideas and concepts from dead religions and applying them to new ones.

    The status of Zeus, mistaken identity, etc. Is a funny tale of mistaken identity becoming irony.
  15. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    NO U.

    I never said I was a scholar.
  16. Re: The Hubbard Virus


    Epic OP is Epic.

  17. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Sorry. EXACTLY like Protestantism.

    I didn't.

    First, what is "my" tech? How many times do I have to tell people I'm not a Scientologist, FZ or otherwise ... I am tired of me (and other people) saying anything open-minded or not negative about the tech being equated as an advertisement, recruitment, or even that it is MY belief. People need to step back on their prejudices.

    And I disagree about the FZ not being "cousins" ... Yes, they are. We are all in this together. You can't invade Iraq and pretend the Kurds have nothing to do with the conflict. The FZ is part of the world of Scientology. One is oppressed by the other, and the FZ is caught in the fray whether THEY like it or not. What we do affects them; what they do affects us and the CoS - maybe more than anyone realizes when the stuff hits the fan and the walls come tumbling down.

    As for them, more than anything Anonymous can do or say, how various people and groups in the FZ itself plays this out will set the stage for public opinion and determine their survival or obscurity.
  18. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. You can not erase a belief system unless a whole lot of killing and book burning is involved...
  19. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I think the term Hubbard would have used is "namby-pamby" ... careful not to end up sharing his Machievellian viewpoint. I'd rather be "wishy washy" ... :)
  20. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Sam keep speaking your mind. You are the first FreeZoner to sound logical I've ever seen on this board. This needs to be discussed and I'm happy to see you've started to talk.
  21. anonymusicz Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Thor - Respected among the Asatru as a deity.
    Zeus - Respected among a number of Pagans as being an a Deity.
    Apollo - Another name for Zeus, again a deity that is invoked during many Sabbats.

    Wicca a a tough one to pin down. Much more difficult than Freezoners even. Much more fractured, and at times even more vehemently opposed to each other (ie You're not a wiccan, you don't belong to a Gardnerian Lineage!!).

    But, I for one can not in good faith condone the complete annihilation of anyone's religious beliefs. I don't think scientology is a religion. At all. None. But, it is not my right, nor anyone else's in reality to attempt to enforce that belief into others. You can try. Feel free to. Can't stop you. I will not.

    I will not however, forward anyone to the free zone. I initially did, but then felt "handled" when I confronted them with questions.

    But, no. We can not completely destroy the idea. To think otherwise is ignorant. We need this "shining example" of what should be prevented in the future to stand. Plus, it's impossible to do. Unless you want to set up a fascist state like good ol' L. Ron Hubbard wanted to.

    Progress is only made through failures. We now know that L. Ron Hubbard was full of crap, and no longer need to repeat what he did.
  22. anonymusicz Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Samuel Hughes is NOT a free zoner. Trust me on this one.

    --EDIT, and that's why he sounds logical:rofl::rofl:
  23. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus


    I simply think you're not getting how the mechanisms within epistemology actually work. Mankind is judge and jury, upholder or destroyer. It's a natural process within the human condition. I'm only saying the idea we aren't or shouldn't be judge and jury has no basis in reality. It's de facto.

    No one suggested you were advocating moral relativism. You must be talking about another discussion. So no strawman is anywhere near this thread until - well actually - you imagined i was accusing you of moral relativism. Doy - I'm getting dizzy. But, sorry, the fact is you said you were OK with shutting down the organization not its practices. Which is an absolute that won't fly without a lot of confusion.

    Oh and when I said this...?
    "i don't think anything close to it will actually happen until the 'engram" stops being a hypothetical and the freezone can agree on what it is that's actually happening to this hypothetical when they do things either this way or that way for reasons they can't really explain. So I'm yapping on and on here but a big part of me says we have nothing to worry about unless a pseudo-scientologist freezoner blackmails the head of the FDA or something."

    You forgot to address the part where an engram is a hypothetical.
  24. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    disregard. I suck cox.
  25. anonymusicz Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I think we need to address a major point here:

    Freezoners can not be lumped together. We can go to specific groups, such as the IFA or whatever other groups may be there.

    It is a sad state of affairs, the term "Free Zone" has been turned into quite the mush of a word, without much meaning.

    Take goldenrodanon, for example. That person thinks all of L. Ron Hubbard's writings were crap, other than the idea of Auditing.

    TR's, OT levels, etc. All crap according to goldenrodanon. But, goldenrodanon still thinks that he/she is practicing Scientology, and call him/herself a Free Zoner.

    Then take good ole' Terril Parks. He is so wrapped up in the tech. The IFA is the Co$ after it got kicked in the nuts a few times. Same crap as the Co$, different banner.

    Do we need to concern ourselves so much with goldenrodanon's group? No, not really. The IFA? Yes, very much so.

    But seriously, at this point, "Free Zone" means nothing. We need to zero in further on which groups we are referring to.
  26. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Same for Terry, even if I hate him. He doesn't believe the Xemu story is anything past mythos to be interpreted. And he stills says he promotes LRH and his writings.
  27. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Woh woh WOH thar! I thought we were talking about the freezone as it relates to exes and critics, not the CoS??? Sure the freezone and the CoS are cousins. OK - don't get angry. But exes and critics aren't, but look it isn't important. Whatever! No need to rain down platitudes on me here!

    We are all in this together.

  28. Skeptic1337 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Actually I have an issue with this statement in regards to the issue I have with most Scientologist (Freezoners included).

    One of the core components is the ability to hold two diametrically opposed concepts at the same time and not have cognitive dissonance.

    In plain english that means that SPs and in turn DBs can just be told what ever is needed at the time to handle them.

    Which is why every debate with scinos and freezoners turns into trying to wade through bullshit to come to the conclusion that it's pointless.

    As to the core believe structure (if I remove all the tech shit out of it) engrans, BTs and the concept of "OT". I think that is shared and ripped off from many other religions. I'd get into that but it would involve this being a beliefs issue and I agree with michael the Hubbard concept cooked up, once you open it for people to understand what Scientology is about it crumbles and will eventually be purged by people seeing that 1950s science fiction just isn't that relevant.
  29. Phil-Anon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Okay, Robert S, answer me this:

    Are you so vehemently against every aspect of the Co$ that you think we should be fighting their belief in aliens?

    If not, then can you acknowledge that there are some benign elements in the belief system (not practices) of Scientology that we can leave alone?

    I agree wholeheartedly that the entire way the Co$ operates is evil. There are a few things here and there that are OK, but most of these are simply the common threads in any religious group (community, public benefit work (rarely), mutual support). If Scientology could be scrubbed of all of its malignant practices and beliefs, I think there would be a battered skeleton remaining around which a legitimate faith could be rebuilt.

    On belief vs. practice:
    It is Scientologists' right to believe that LRH was perfect, that psychiatrists are evil, that LGBT individuals are sick, etc. - what crosses the line is when they act on these beliefs in a way that is harmful to people.

    Many conservative Christians believe that all gays are evil (and, per Leviticus, should technically be put to death), but how many of them actually advocate capital punishment for sodomy? Outside the WBC loonies, not many. While the nasty material is technically part of their belief system, most don't actually practice it as their belief system says they theoretically should.

    In effect, the Co$ currently behaves like a very fundamentalist Biblical literalist movement, following their "scriptures" to the letter. If they could be reformed to behave like a more vanilla version, then it wouldn't matter as much that LRH's writings contain so much evil material, because they wouldn't practice a lot of it.

    To reach such a point, a LOT of changes have to happen, including the elimination of many of the current practices of the Co$ (Fair Game, RPF, for-profit religion, etc.). The veil of secrecy has to be lifted, so that everyone can see the actual shape of the beliefs (rather than the lies of "We're compatible with any religion!").

    Off topic:
    Samuel Hughes, I'm actually the opposite way with martial arts - I find it very useful to work out how the techniques work in terms of physics, mechanics, and biology. It helps me generalize the techniques, and understand how to do the technique properly.
  30. amaX Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    ^^^i agree with this.

    ^^^and this.

    ^^^samuel, what do you think is going to happen when the general public is made aware of all that has gone on behind the doors of the church with the pretty buildings? it will be a purging.

    do i think they should purge this shit from hubbard? it doesn't matter. there will be some other megalomaniac narcissist who will come along to dupe the gullible. this person will steal and cull from what's been written before him. doesn't matter if blubtard's writings are here or not---there's plenty of other shit around to plagiarize.

    i keep a little business card in front of my computer screen with this quote:

    "I have high hopes of smashing my name into history so violently that it will take a legendary form, even if all the books are destroyed. That goal is the real goal as far as I am concerned."
    ~L. Ron Hubbard

    i'm not so sure if blubtard's name is legendary enough yet to survive and be common knowledge if his books are destroyed. even though there will always be another cruel charlatan to come along, it pleases me to think that his name will not be common knowledge. it will just be added to the list of evil people. no one special. just another evil cunt who's shit stuck for a while.

    i totally understand what you're saying. i just don't agree that this applies to hubbard's shit.

    everything he wrote leads to bad stuff and bad people.

    even the nicest ex-$cientologist will tell stories of how they watched horribly things happen to human beings and even children. they tell their stories of greed and inhumanity. no matter how "good" hubbard's tech is at the very beginning? it is only the softening up before the cruelty begins. it leads to nothing but bad things.

    as far as FZ's are concerned? i've talked to black tar heroin junkies who don't jones for their fix more than the 'zoner's do for their highs. it's no more than a drug for them. the FZ's need to look at history and understand what's going to happen when the law and our governments finally come down on this cult. there's really no sense in trying to win ANONYMOUS "approval." there's really no such thing. it also doesn't matter if there was a way to give you "approval."

    the proverbial shit is about to hit the fan. EVERYONE is supposed to be reporting EVERYTHING they have on this cult to the FBI.

    let me ask you all something:

    how fucking pissed do you think the FBI and the CIA and all the other government agencies are at the cult for infiltrating them and gathering all that intel from them? and what happens when you gather intel? you get that information. valuable information that could make or break spy rings. information that could put certain people in mortal danger. insider information on acts by our government that would not sit well with the general populace.

    what would you do if an organization stole information from your government over a long period of time and in stealing this info, they also gathered intel on 13 foreign countries? some allies. some not.

    you'd bend over and take it. you're screwed. you don't know who they've passed this info off to. you only know that when you finally raided their offices? they had YOUR information.

    sure, sure. a few of your members get a slap on the wrist and then you get carte blanche to do whatever the hell you want. you get that religious tax exemption you've been wanting for so long. BUT WHAT? you don't just get ANY religious tax-exemption---you get a super special one.

    face it, this cult has run roughshod over our court systems and through our legislators and have stifled the media since the TIME magazine article. they've done what they want.

    well, i can't prove it, but i have a feeling that the intel they gathered via Operation Snow White is no longer viable. i don't think what the cult knows matters anymore.

    i think their playtime is over.

    who knows what all is going to come out about this cult? what we already know is enough to make our blood boil. what do you think the world is going to do?

    it's inevitable that the cult will fall. everything changes. it won't be pretty, but this is what is going to have to happen so that their particular brand of brainwashing and enslavement and ruin and murder doesn't happen to another person...particularly the children that they have abused and ruined.

  31. Ironhead Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    and I'd rather resist a pompous fat man who created Scientology, a tapestry of half truths and quackery that mirrors his own arrogance and prejudices, to what ever extent that I can. what ever validity there is to his teachings are not relevant to me as the results have shown time after time to be incredibly negative. if this tech is "squireled" and disected and changed into something different, while the BS of it is discarded, I will be quite happy with that. but as it stands, I am completely unconvinced that Diet Scientology (aka Freezone) has done that. What worries me is that when DM's regime is toppled, there will only remain the FZ there to take over the monopoly on LRH's great con, and when ever there is a coup, it is not uncommon for those who take over to be no better than their predocessor. I am willing at this time to accept a shakey alliance with FZ, only they should beware, should they attempt to follow in the footsteps of the current CoS, their fate will be the same.

    hence the Hubbard Virus, a man who cannot accept any reality than the one he creates, who starved for power and control the way he did, is never to be trusted in any form. which is why I feel he must fall in all forms.
  32. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Phil I don't think we should be fighting a belief in aliens. But I do think we should fight the claim that aliens are a scientific fact until it is proven. If I could get a scientologist or freezoner (generically used) to tell me it was a "belief" rather than a scientific fact I go home and grill me some chicken with a raspberry-mustard sauce, drink my beer and say see you later. The problem I have is no one anywhere - CoS or freezone (generically used) - is willing to let it be "faith" without it destroying the whole shibboleth. If it was "faith" I have no argument. But that's not what they'll tell you. Plus the problem is because the modality is seen as absolute, they quickly justify anything in the name of their "truth".

    In a sense we're saying the same thing. But I'm adding that the scientologist will have a big problem admitting it is "mere faith". And there starts everything wrong.
  33. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    What a diverse set of individuals we have here... debating religion / belif systems in the context of LRH. Fascinating.
  34. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I disagree.

    LRH tech != religion, no matter how much culties and fruitcake zoners baaaw that it is.

    I could say I'm Santa Claus, but that doesn't make it true.

    And the truth is LRH tech = brainwashing clusterfuck.

    So IMO it doesn't need to be "erased", just exposed for the world to see.

    Education and criminal charges will wither the criminal corporation away until it's no longer a threat to the world.

    But I suspect there will still be some nutcases doing the fruitcake zonner thing on there own for years afterward.
  35. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

  36. Don Carlo Member

  37. Phil-Anon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    That's the linchpin, really. Using legitimate religion for comparison again (I hate doing this, makes me feel like an OSA plant, but it's the easiest way), look at which groups within Christianity are the most aggressive about enforcing their beliefs on everybody else: The groups that also claim that their faith is absolute, irrefutable fact, and the groups that believe that the Bible is the 100% accurate and true word of God. Take away that certainty, and the groups that are left tend to be significantly more mainstream. Still pushy, but nowhere near as obnoxious as the fundamentalists. If we intend to try to change any aspect of belief among Scientologists, we should start with that same belief that LRH's writings are 100% perfect. Take that away, and suddenly there exists room for debate, criticism, and reform. As long as that one element of the belief system remains, they will NEVER reform or improve their behavior, as that belief obligates them to obey LRH's writings to the letter. For even a chance at reform, that key piece must go.

    If we were to drive a reform of that nature, where the Co$ opened up to criticism, reform, discussion, etc., do you think it could eventually (taking at least decades, probably) work its way to becoming a benign or even benevolent faith?

    I think this discussion is definitely proving useful - at the very least, it's helping me clarify the exact aspects of the Co$ that I feel need to be changed and/or eliminated.
  38. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    He's not a Freezoner. What I mean is, he's not a Freezoner. But just to remove ambiguity, he's not a Freezoner.

    I'm on one Freezone chat list he joined for the purposes of taking a first hand look at what the Freezone is, WHERE THEY LIVE. Not some heresay, or yap-fest on some other forum, but by talking to them and watching them interact.

    And he gets it right. He accurately represents what they have going on, at least in the discussion group he attends.

    And his education qualifies him to judge what he's seeing.

    His viewpoints are valid in this area, but fall on the same couple dozen sets of deaf ears that mine do.
  39. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    As of right now you look like both bigots and wanting to destroy the belief system. The fraud has already been unmasked and slowly, but surely we're destroying it. What happens when that's gone? On to destroying the belief system?

    Yes, obviously EVERYTHING is about the critics and ruining their "good name".

    *rolls eyes*

    At this point alot of the ex members just look insane, damaged and paranoid.

  40. Kalenos Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Eh, the current heads of scientology--and any one fiercely loyal to their objectives--would have to be removed in order of the church to ever have a hope of "reforming".

    Otherwise, you would just end up with Davis or Miscavige clones, scrambling to take the seat of power, or keep the proverbial ship afloat. Point in case Davis is taking over where Rinder left off. times. -.-;

    I could be way off, though.. *shrug.*

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