The Hubbard Virus

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by exOT8Michael, Jul 21, 2008.

  1. exOT8Michael Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I agree.
    This is how it looks from my own experience.
  2. Anonabliss Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Thank you. My original statement was not meant to diminish what happened in Aushwitz or to compare it with what is going on in scientology now. It was to make the point that the unimaginable HAS happened and it can happen again right under our noses as it has many times in the past.
  3. Ironhead Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    oh there are places in the world where it DID happen again. people refused to believe they're doing right now with CoS. I think the reason we're not on CNN right now is because no one wants to believe it...the media probably feels that the people are not ready to discover that there's a CULT that's pulling alot of the strings on alot of what they see and hear these days. they have focus groups like CCHR out to push agendas in Government, they have the OSA ghestapo out to make sure that they only hear positive things about the cult...if we don't intervene now, there's really no telling how far the major fanatics of this cult would take literally "quietly disposed of, without sorrow" they really take it.
  4. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    That's a rather unexpected answer. Your point is valid and I agree.

    Exactly. There are many people that wouldn't be able to handle this kind of truth. Look at how up in arms people got during the Waco, Texas debacle. The fact the cult got itself so deeply rooted in societies around the world would blow a lot of people's minds.

    I also tend to think that because the cult actively persued people in government, media, and entertainment (or just richfags) for 50-some odd years means there ARE probably people in powerful positions making sure the fight against the cult doesn't become a big story.

    90% of all protests held at the DC Mall get news coverage. How much coverage did Anon get? WHY?
  5. Ironhead Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Oh but to top it all off, it's not just another Waco waiting to happen, our David Kouresh in this story (DM) is BFF's with everyone's favorite movie star. Imagine that, we watched him shoot down commies in a F14, we watched him fight evil law firms, we even watched him save a unicorn and kill some guy who looks like the devil. oh nooooooes, turns out there's a dark side to it.

    the media has invested too much time and energy and funds, allowing the cult to simply walk over them, and allowing them to dictate policy, allowing them to dictate what is news and what is not. they will downplay the protests as much as they can, in hopes we go away, but as long as the pressure is on, the worse of an explosion this will be in a month, 2months, 6 months, a year from now.

    the first step in taking over is to gain control of the media, because the best way to keep people down is to keep them in the dark.
  6. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Hubbard defined the "Publicity Section" under Department 17, the Department of Public Services, as
  7. Ironhead Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    and thus their fatal error, one does not herd cats.
  8. An Omnibus Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    This, o this. Can u say infiltration
  9. An Omnibus Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I can counter your devil's advocacy:) I believe most endeared writings which persist through the ages are not a willful, lying for-profit sham.
  10. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    1/10 on the making a decent point scale. Although I get your point, it fails against mine.
  11. An Omnibus Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Maybe I agree, but you have to give some examples beyond Mein Kampf. I mean are you talking comic books and playboy? or the satanist playbook? Depends on your angle, advocate:)

    EDIT: I now like an idiot see your initial post was in a response to a book-burner, so nevermind.
  12. Spork Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    In theory there's no reason why this couldn't happen. I don't think it will, but who am I to say?

    It's interesting to consider the possibility of reform because through that thought experiment, we may be able to get a firmer grip on what's wrong with the COS as it stands now. Imagining a COS which is compatible with a tolerant liberal society may help us to identify where the present incompatibilities lie.
  13. anonymusicz Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    A Co$ that is compatible with a tolerant liberal society is not the Co$... Goes against "Keep Scientology Working", as well as against a number of the other policy letters, which makes the Co$ the Co$.
  14. An Omnibus Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    OK, I have to say I like all your posts Spork up untill this one. What jerks my chain is that it makes it seem like COS is a belaboured, besieged religion that just needs a little help, rather than the fact that it is a dangerous fraud. Firmer grip? Gimme a break (BTW I love your other posts:)
  15. exOT8Michael Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Trying to "reform " CoS would be like trying to run Mac software on a Microsoft computer. Not compatible.

    KSW1 is iron-bound policy. "Reform" would have to change the whole OS.
  16. anonymusicz Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Not meaning to split hairs and all, but you can run Mac Software on a PC...

    Just sayin'...
  17. exOT8Michael Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    You know what I mean, LOL.

    I can has Leopard OSX running in Vista??
  18. An Omnibus Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    O cummon, it was a good analogy... tech people STFU
  19. anonymusicz Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    lawlz ok i go into corner now. :D
  20. An Omnibus Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Not being mean, not in my nature.... srry
  21. Spork Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Ok, let me see ... "Firmer grip." For example a newbie critic or COS sympathizer might initially take this line: "It's all Miscavige's fault. The rank-and-file Scino is the good guy. The COS is OK except for a corrupt, manipulative cadre at the top. So to reform COS all that's needed is to decapitate it."

    To be sure, this "reform" program would fail. But why? To answer that question properly (I think) is to locate the real problems in the doctrine. So that's an example of somebody working through the hypothetical issue of reform as a way of getting a handle on what's wrong with the COS now.

    Something similar can apply even after it's agreed that certain policies are at fault. On another board an ex complained that KSW1 is "too dogmatic". Does that get us anywhere? Is the trouble not the content of the policies but the rigour with which they're enforced? -- Thought experiment time. Suppose KSW1 were imposed in a somewhat less dictatorial way. (I don't know -- say that consistent failure to uphold it doesn't get you expelled from Scientology; instead there's some kind of reward for following it.) Is this an acceptable level of reform? And so on.

    Thought experiments which test our intuitions about reform are a guide in the diagnosis of present ills. That's all I was clumsily trying to say last night re: imagining reform.
  22. An Omnibus Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I respect what you said and rather than trying to push out a witty response, I hope the other readers here will benefit by what has been posted.
  23. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    imho, What I see-
    The only purpose this virus has is "to grow."
    And the only way it knows how to grow is "to consume all that is around it."
  24. Randomness Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    It's impossible to completely remove a belief system from the planet.

    But it is possible to make it known to all the world that it's a scam and starve the fuckers out.

    That's our best chance, ridicule and a change in public image from "isn't that tom cruise kooky religion" to "Ugh, that's one fucked-up cult"
  25. AnonMSW Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    This is highly relevant to this conversation...

    YouTube - The Andromeda Strain 2008 Opening Scene

    The completely predictable end of "Keep $cientology Working"

    YouTube - Andromeda Strain Trailer

    this one too...

    YouTube - The Andromeda Strain(1971)

    VidAnons, knock yer creative sox off.

    Edit: PS, I'm over 40 and trust me this will grab the childhood memories of anyone over 40 who sees it. The 2008 movie version, not so much. But if you were a kid and had your ass frightened off by this movie, you remember crying in the lobby with your mother and might wonder WTF!
  26. mistah Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    wait, i thought this IS scientology???
  27. Phil-Anon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    It's part of Scientology - a major part, right now. It would probably require a small miracle to cut all of that out of their belief system, but if we can get those toxic parts out, I see nothing wrong with them continuing to believe the harmless elements.
  28. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Which are...?
  29. An0nand0n Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

  30. Ironhead Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Zeus, Apallo, Thor, and Rhah Disagree...

    although to be fair they weren't really removed, they kind of just petered out. atleast the mythology in those religions were kind of fun sometimes, Scientology is really dorky.
  31. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    The point is we are not judge and jury.

    Our right and duty is to oppose that which we deem offensive or dangerous, not take actions to utterly destroy it so that those who come after us cannot decide for themselves, or have knowledge of it, agreeing or not. I know that's not what some of you are saying, but then again some of you may understandable feel this way.

    But let's approach this from a civil rights and political standpoint ...

    In America, racism is legal. Discrimination is not.

    Neo-Nazism is legal. Hate speech is not.

    Thought versus application. Thought-crime versus quantifiable violation of law. Danger of legislating ideology versus protecting people from the theoretical effects of ideology.

    That is why even when a group's leaders are found guilty of crimes (Mary Sue, et alia), there is a necessary hesitation to disband an entire organization.

    Unfortunately, it's all too easy to send the tanks into Waco, Texas, but not in Hemet, CA, because one is not supported by an outer semi-sane membership, celebrities, and a legal team with a limitless budget. The other IS.

    I'm just glad people are starting to make open and honest valid points for and against approaching the tech as a target. But I still cannot imagine stepping over the line from dismantling a criminal organization to banning practices.

    And I really appreciate the people who see the middle ground of enforcing accountability and consumer warning. And like any other alternative modality, there may be a time where something like the IFA works with the mental health community and society as a whole to create an acceptable, recognized licensing of auditors.

    The hard part is we seem unable to not combine a debate over the ethics of censorship versus public safety with opinions about the tech itself. I think if we assume the tech is harmful (or assume it is not) we should still arrive as some understanding as to what is the real, immediate target and goals are before us.
  32. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Dude - how is he recruiting? I didn't get thet from his posts.
  33. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I will say that Godwinism aside, comparisons, within reason, are apt. Please do not take offense. I realize that it isn't the same thing, and by NO means in terms of scale or physicality.

    But the mentality, the plan, the tactics ... basically cults are created and run by people quite similar to Hitler, but instead of aspiring to take over a political party (such as the German Democratic Socialists of the early 1930s), they leech on society through the arena of religion, or more recently, self-improvement bandwagons.

    That is why (IMO) Hubbard stated in a policy letter that Democratic countries were ideal for expansion - they allow for enough freedoms (such as religion) for cloaking and subsequent shielding from the law to work, but more importantly, they can compete for power under the radar, whereas a dictatorship would realize the competition immediately.
  34. Phil-Anon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Heck, I could actually see the CCHR becoming a useful activism group after a reform - they could, rather than just trying to destroy all of psychiatry, act as a watchdog group. Reporting abuses committed by psychiatrists and/or drug companies is a laudable activity, as it increases accountability. The problem comes when they go beyond accountability and accuse the entire practice of being an abuse. Not only is this a blatant lie, it discourages people from getting the help they need, and it badly dilutes their credibility as a watchdog.
  35. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    but actually yes we are. It is called the court of public opinion. So the point is rather moot.

    What I object to in this is the hair-splitting. You are saying we do not have a right or duty to destroy anything so that people who follow after us can decide for themselves. But this is merely natural law. there are a world of ideas and conditions that have gone by the wayside because humanity deemed it impractical, hurtful, or whatever. Think Marxism. Think the African slave trade to North America. Think absolute monarchies in Europe. Conditions and ideas evolve. And it has nothing to do with rights or duty, it just happens. You can't say "we have no right to destroy so that others can't decide for themselves." That flies in the face of the way things work - or in any case is certainly not axiomatic.

    You do realize that the failure to surrender to legal authority is... you know... illegal? The right or wrong of an action is done in the courts and you don't make a battlefield on top of your kids, right? Like Koresh did at Waco? That's kind of why it's pointless to resist arrest, especially if you've done nothing wrong, and let it work out in the justice system. I mean, you know that right because, it sure sounds like the next thing you're going to say here is "those damn cops. And this damn police state that won't let cults alone unless they've got lawyers."

    Would you allow human sacrifice/ I mean - I'm just saying what if. You've made another 'absolute" statement here with no gray area or room for yourself to maneuver. You would, by applying this idea, dismantle the mafia but allow their intimidation and drug rackets to continue because it's about the organization and not the practice? That's what you're saying.

    Yes maybe. But i don't think anything close to it will actually happen until the 'engram" stops being a hypothetical and the freezone can agree on what it is that's actually happening to this hypothetical when they do things either this way or that way for reasons they can't really explain. So I'm yapping on and on here but a big part of me says we have nothing to worry about unless a pseudo-scientologist freezoner blackmails the head of the FDA or something.

    Really...? First...? Show me a motherfucking Clear.
  36. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Which brings out an interesting approach ....

    An ideology survives according to its ability to survive, so ideologies that are structured to appeal and "grow" survive, and those that don't become footnotes (or they adapt into something that does).

    The question is if the means of survival are good or evil.

    Without getting into endless philosophical splintering, keep my meaning simple: If an ideology survives by force and deception - authoritarianism, propaganda, false public face, strong-arm or predatory recruitment, etc. - that is a world of difference from survival through overall cultural pertinence, consistency with human behavior and survival, promotion through good works and examples instead of PR opportunities, etc.

    Scientologists believe the general public actually WANTS to know about and do Scientology. they think it's in demand! Why the deceptive hard sell if this was true? Is it overcoming bad branding, or would people even take more courses if they weren't coerced? (Okay, I think it is fair to say some people do consider their personal growth significant from the tech, even among some who left the cult for what it was, but I mean in general.)

    More concretely put: Would Dianetics even have been on the best-seller list more than a week or two if they hadn't bought and resold endless copies themselves? Why do you think they have to "handle" the press and make up conspiracy theories about the psychiatric community, governments, etc.?

    I forgot what my point was ... oh, yeah ... If the cult is stripped away, the tech will find its place for better or worse in a free market society of free thinking people who have access to information.

    Worry about the ETHICAL PROMOTION AND SALE of the tech, and if any of it works, let it. If it doesn't, it will just hide in the corner somewhere and eventually be forgotten. Fair enough?
  37. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Much of the Free Zone has already done a lot of this. People keep talking about reform "someday", when it's been going on for years. The FZ are the Scientology Protestants, and ex-members and critics are their (often feuding) cousins, like it or not.

    Not an advertisment. I'm speaking as an observer.
  38. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    No. There's actually a regimen in place for this called the FDA, not to mention peer review and published concepts in established scientific journals. What need of a reformed CCHR to act as some kind of extra-governmental watchdog? Who watches this watchdog? No. There is no value to the CCHR whether the cult is reformed or not. it would be useless, redundant, and very suspicious to a lot of people.
  39. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Complete misrepresentation that basically amounts to a commercial, especially considering the fractured nature of the freezone, who actively exclude other "freezoners' if they 'don't do it my way.'

    The feuding part about the critics and exes is very true. But to represent the freezone as some good-thinking unified force for all that is sanctified in hubbardism is complete and total bullshit.

    people who say your tech is nonsense, be they exes or critics, are not your relatives.
  40. Ironhead Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    @Samuel Hughes

    Don't be a fool!

    your wishy washy outlook will do nothing to destroy this cult. exposing the fraud and abuse is the key, however you are forgetting that the fraud and abuse is born of the tech.

    I want to clarify one thing, I don't think it's realistic to destroy a belief, but I do believe it will fade away, and eventually only lurk in shadows, like any other cult once they're exposed.

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