The Hubbard Virus

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by exOT8Michael, Jul 21, 2008.

  1. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Hubbard stole the candy, poisoned it, and said "look I made new and better candy, and I'm only charging $360,000 for it."

    The candy is a lie.

    1) Throw out Hubbard candy
    2) Get original recipe candy
    3) ???
    4) Profit
  2. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Absolutely correct.
  3. exOT8Michael Member

  4. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Not sure about that. I think using it to the extent auditors do is quite suspect, as there are many things that could cause a change in conductivity. However, it DOES measure such from one side of the body to the other, possibly to some extent through the central nervous system, which in turn is greatly influenced physically by psycho-emotional reactions.

    But the cans are silly, in that they allow for so much tampering by the subject, consciously or otherwise. I think the clips used on lie detectors would be more effective.

    Anyway, I was unofficially 'audited' once a couple months ago to try it ... we did the pinch test, yadda yadda. The auditor wasn't really trained, so I don't want to draw too many conclusions good or bad what was going on. But the fact is that about of zillion man-hours of experience in using it over the last 50 years has yielded SOME kind of reasonably repeatable result, where they can somewhat guess a person's state from such a one-dimensional reading.

    I think it could actually be helpful as a diagnostic supplement to psycho-analysis, which I suspect is the whole point.
  5. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I found a quoted excerpt from Rolands post about how the meter works. I didn't find the thread on OCMB, but this goes into enough detail that you'll either find what you're looking for or not.


    OK, I've posted this before to ACT and maybe other
    groups too, but here it is.

    WARNING: Contains actual scientific information.

    The meter measures the effective resistance of the
    body. It is a physical thing. This resistance may be
    altered by the presence of the thetan, but it is
    directly caused by physical properties of the body.

    The body does not consist of ohmic conductors. That
    is to say, the relationship between voltage and
    current in the body is not the same as it would be in
    a circuit containing resistors that you might purchase
    from an electronic store. These "Ohmic" resistors
    have the property that the current through them is
    directly proportional to the voltage applied across
    them - if you have a resistor of 10 Ohms, and you put
    10 volts across it, you get 1 Amp through it; if you
    put 20 Volts across it, you get 2 Amps through it.

    The body does not work like this. It consists of a
    number of electrolytes sloshing around in number of
    assorted tubes. Electrolytes are liquids that contain
    ions - electrically charged atoms or compounds - and
    which can conduct electricity by physical motion of
    the ions in the solution. In particular, the blood
    and lymph contain sodium chloride (among other things)
    which can conduct electricity. However electrical
    conduction results in chemical changes as the ions
    physically show up at the electrodes, and these
    chemical changes themselves control the conduction.

    The relationship between current and voltage in an
    ionic solution is quite different from the
    relationship in an ohmic resistor. As you gradually
    increase the voltage from zero, at first virtually no
    current flows. Not until you get to about 600mV
    (0.6V) does current begin to flow. When it does so,
    it reduces oxygen at one electrode, and generates it
    at the other. But there is only so much oxygen in
    solution in the blood, so as you increase the voltage,
    the current plateaus for a while, increasing again at
    about 675mV as you start to reduce carbon dioxide.
    Below the 600mV, NO CURRENT FLOWS, since there is not
    enough energy to force the chemical changes required.
    (Actually, a little does, but virtually none).

    In other words, the blood acts as a good conductor
    ONLY if the voltage across it is greater than 600mV.
    Below that, it is an insulator.

    This is a Good Thing, since otherwise your nerves
    would be short circuited, and wouldn't work.

    Nerves on the other hand are exquisitely designed
    pieces of electrochemistry that operate at a threshold
    voltage of about 100mV. In fact they contain what
    appear to be quantum computers, devices that not only
    propogate electricity at low voltages, but also can
    compute in a very sophisticated way on the information
    they receive - but that's another story. Nerves
    interact with each other at "synapses", where they
    transmit charge from one to another using complex
    chemicals such as serotonin. This is called "firing"
    - they conduct in pulses, not continuously. These
    synapses are primarily in the brain - nerve cells have
    a nucleus normally in the brain, with long tails
    extended down to where they detect things: signals
    from the nerve endings are trasnmitted through their
    length with a potential drop of about 100mV. They
    communicate with each other *in* the brain (mostly).

    The result of all this is that at potentials of
    1-200mV, impressed accross the nerve endings, current
    will flow along the nerves, up to the brain, and back
    down the other side. It won't flow along the skin, or
    through the blood or lymph, until the potential gets
    high enough to overcome the chemical barriers.

    As it happens, the greatest concentration of nerve
    endings in the human body are in places like the
    tounge, eyes, and hands (especially the fingers) - and
    certain other sensitive places I will leave you to
    guess. It isn't terribly practical to attach
    electrodes to any of the others, but it *is* practical
    to hold a pair of cans with the hands.

    So the meter sends a small voltage across the hands.
    Most of this is used up across the resistive outer
    skin layer, but the rest will be primarily conducted
    along the nerves. The potential drop along a nerve is
    gong to be pretty constant, perhaps (though the
    computing effects might make this not so). However
    the amount of conduction between nerves is controlled
    by their firing activity. Since there are something
    like a hundred million nerves in the hands, the
    individual firings are lost in the noise, but the
    aggregate rate of firing is going to be the single
    most important determinant of how much current flows.

    So now we have the meter actually responding to the
    aggregate rate of nerve firing, at least between the
    sections of the brain (one side to the other)
    connecting the hand nerves. Fortunately the brain has
    all sorts of connections all over it, so the net
    effect is that the meter will monitor overall brain

    It does not respond to mass, or skin resistance
    (except the latter in a gross, overall sense). It
    responds to the brain.

    LRH's explanation of "mass moving in, raising the TA"
    is at best metaphorical. You get a subjective
    impression of mass associated with high TA - that is
    true, but mass as such has NOTHING to do with
    electrical conductivity. You can verify this by
    hooking up your meter to a resistor, and setting the
    needle to "Set"; then bring a heavy weight close to
    the resistor, and see what happens. You will see that
    nothing does. However hang on to the cans, and think
    about stopping things till you get a massy feeling.
    Now see what has happened to the meter.

    IMO, althrough the standard model of
    "Thetan-Mind-Brain" has a lot of utility, the
    separation points are MUCH closer to the brain than we
    like to think. Most of our thinking, for example, and
    certainly all our "gut feelings" are brain related,
    not thetan related. IMO this opens up the possibility
    of using modern insights into how the brain and also
    how computers (particularly quantum computers) work to
    improve the effectiveness of tech. Most of this
    information is new since LRH's time - his comments on
    the state of psychological knowledge are 40 years out
    of date, a huge amount of time in an active science.

    I'll maybe write some of my thoughts on the subject of
    the latter paragraph later, if people are interested.

  6. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    It's amazing he was never elected President.

    I hear wheels spinning. You starting to get it now? The whole brainwashing thing? Anything? Hello?
  7. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I think this is possible in any modality or therapy. It's called co-dependency and does not validate or invalidate the method. It's how the method it presented, combined with the individual's need, that can step over the line.
  8. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Good example: There are some damn fine products available in various MLMs. The lives ruined by the marketing scheme don't stop the soap from getting things clean!

    And that is my point. You can't sell all cr@p - no matter how effective the reeling in, there's got to be something on the end of the hook. It just ends up costing you more than you bargained for, and you end up with something you didn't expect.
  9. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Explain to me again how the tech is presented.
  10. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I know what you mean. almost like Schizophrenia, or maybe it was.

    But still, I got the impression that when he was saying the cheery stuff, he was meaning it, and when he was the commodore, contradicting the previous stuff, he meant that as well.

    I also gather he got right pissed off if someone pointed out a contradiction to him.

    And then you have policy like tech degrades, where he says none of his previous works are cancelled unless he himself specifically cancelled them. Now the contradictions have to stay in place and the believers have some feat trying to work around them mentally, because if you questioned the contradictions, you were immediately challenged to find your MU's.
  11. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    HUEG generalization. Nothing I've seen in the tech teaches that. Policy letters and speeches, yes. Maybe stuff in his books ranting about politics or whatever.

    Why do you want to lump EVERYTHING in the cult under the label 'tech'? The tech - FZ people here correct me if I'm wrong - are the actual PROCESSES within auditing, which is separate, though founded somewhat, in the belief system.

    So if you go to church and sing or hold hands or whatever, that is a very different thing from the pastor's message or canon law or scripture, or church policy or ...
  12. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    THERE YA GO! A cogent thought.

    Auditing is simply therapy - except the therapist is armed with a lie detector. Perhaps the only unique thing Hubbard ever did do was meld these two together.

    Hubbard, being a paranoid freak, figured out a way to detect when he was being lied to. AND by auditors using this, they have a way of knowing if somebody is trying to leave the cult, if they're having sex, if they're disobeying orders, if they think LRH was batshit, if they hate LRH, if they think Miscavige is an asshole, if you're lying about having money in the bank, etc etc

    Think "sec check" in disguise.

    By you learning how to float the meter you are brainwashing yourself into conforming to their every whim.

  13. Re: The Hubbard Virus

  14. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Dude, that's not fair. He can't explain it in a way you can udnerstand, so he wished he could demonstrate it using a meter. What's the deal?
  15. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus


  16. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Sorry, but if one cannot explain their belief without telling me to try it first, I disregard it. Especially when its as dangerous as this one. Or... was it a science? I don't fucking know. All I know is its wrong.
  17. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Exactly. Though, one of the traps in Scientology is to not be able to tell anyone it isn't working, that you are faking it till you make it! Because the COS keeps promising that "the next level, the next level" until the person leaves, goes insane, becomes bankrupt, kills themself...

    All the words said before it are merely the con. Good, bad or indifferent.
    The whole ride is fake, it is simply manufactured to keep you reaching for something you will never attain.

    Using other peoples ideas and concepts as tools to manipulate people out of their money for no reason other than to get their money is just F-ING wrong!

    What I don't understand is how anyone can even consider protecting one word that LRH ever uttered? Everything that he said was stolen from someone else, the things he bragged that he did were outright lies.

    What ever part of "the tech" that people feel works, I guarantee that they can find where it was stolen from, and go use that real religion instead.

    All the tech does is make people lazy and prevent people from having their own thought.

    I am really glad that you started this thread Michael. I think all of Scientology is a sham.
    I think Scientologists are just duped, and they just need to be far enough away to wake up and see what the truth really is. You can't call me a religious bigot, because Scientology is not a religion.
  18. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Never been on the chans, but learned some stuff from context. But since you asked ...

    Dividing by zero is actually simple ... in an algebraic equation, you substitute the zero as an unknown variable and cancel it out so you are left with just the numbers.

    I discovered it by simply realizing n/0 = infinity, as per any simple graphing of fractions where the denominator decreases to zero.

    N/0 x zero = N
    In other words, 5 'infinities' times zero gives you five.

    The rule of anything times zero does not apply because infinity is the inverse of zero.

    It actually works, and I was able to solve problems with correct answers using this method, in spite of teachers telling me I couldn't. talk about scomotixation!

    The reason most people would never have figured this out is because they don't think that that a rule must have a limitation as to its applicability, and when you go to the next 'dimention' of a system, the rules have to be 'translated' in a way that gives a known correct result, then reapplied to similar problems.

    Sorry if this sounds like BS ... hopefully someone here with knowledge in theoretical math will corroberate.
  19. Re: The Hubbard Virus

    weird... double post.
  20. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Actually, this sounds like the job for an off-topic thread. Let's not derail here. Interesting formula, I suppose.
  21. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    This is according to what I have thus learned over the last year or so ...

    Within the cult, the tech is presented in the context of "only we can help you" and used regularly for interrogation and ethics handling, etc.. It seems to be mostly sold as a commodity you are to consume according to their recommendation. You are EXPECTED to move up the bridge, every cent they can funneling upward.

    In the FreeZone, there is no "church" and you are free to get help from anyone, at your own pace, or not at all with no consequence if you don't. There is no 'regging', no grilling for overts if you question the method, no KRs. It is sold as a service to whomever wants it, and sometimes done for free.
  22. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    You're saying you came up with this?

    Dude, google "nullity" please. People have been using it since 2006.
  23. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Yes, IF it's used that way. I always suspected that was part of his plan - the lie detector angle that is.

    Except learning how to float the needle makes me think of beating a lie detector test ... or perhaps making yourself believe what you are saying? then again, I haven't seen it used that way, although I wouldn't put it past Hubbard.
  24. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    And the end result of both of them does not deviate from the modus operandi to get others involved in the tech with you. Read the OP again. Also:

  25. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    And the Purif Rundown?
  26. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I tend to agree. And I certainly wont PAY for a subjective experience. I HATE cults who insist you can't criticize it unless you've done it, but will never put up in lab conditions or third-party studies.

    But that isn't what he was suggesting. He was trying to SHOW YOU something specific as a particular point, not get you to experience it subjectively.
  27. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Nice post overall. I have different opinions on some of the points, but I think you do understand cult phenomenon in general, and I share some of your sentiments.
  28. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    You want to talk about the Hubbard virus... I spent more than a week at the exScientologist board trying to find some kind of consensus viewpoints amongst freezoners there. Even good ol' Terril was busy there. It was like pulling teeth and I think one exploratory thread had something like 300 posts or something. But here are nine points they basically agreed on...

    * There are such things as SPs, but not as many as Hubbard said there were. And, because the term probably originated as part of an effort to protect the Church of Scientology, it’s exact meaning is problematic.
    * In the Freezone, though disconnection can happen in very extreme cases, it is unequivocally not done when families or family members are involved, and may only actually really mean exclusions that are based on differences of opinion.
    * LRH lied about his research.
    * LRH said falsehoods and may have misrepresented the condition itself relative to the state of "Clear."
    * An engram is a hypothetical storage of things that cause irrational behavior, though what mechanism places these things into functionality is not known outside of a Dianetic point of reference. When things remind you of things stored in these hypothetical units you may or may not act irrationally.
    * The term "Clear" is something that references a state that implies continual release from the bad effects of engrams. Being “Clear” gives a person control over things that may have previously caused difficulty for the person in the past. Though it is observable because some mental tasks become easier, it may or may not be true.
    * Not one person or one piece of the FZ is the same as any other person or piece. Interaction with each person or piece will give you a different result
    * Charge is mental energy like for example tension, or resistance to reality, or anger, going into action or having the potential to go into action.
    * The purpose of auditing is to remove charge or to allow the person being audited to be able to handle the ramifications of charge, with a broader goal of helping the subject achieve a condition of improved capabilities.

    A kewpie doll to anyone spotting the escape hatches and equivocations. They agreed to this wording, and nobody squawked. Don't look at me.
  29. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Yes. I think it was Junior year, which would be 1985-86.

    But when I got to college, the math professor I discussed it with gave me the impression it was common knowledge. You can't imagine some of the things I 'invented' or 'theorized' only to find somebody came up with it first ... I'm sure most people have things like this. Very annoying, but encouraging in a way.
  30. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I hope you have >9000 kewpie dolls.
  31. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

  32. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I think you need to seriously re-read that statement.

    It is the MO that is COMPLETELY different, and yet you managed to sum it up with the common denominator of "get others involved" which - even if it were true, would not indicate anything harmful.

    If I quote something positive, you will always be able to say he borrowed it from an earlier source, so why bother? You could do the same with Gandhi or Jesus of Nazareth.

    The point is you WERE given a whole essay of positive dictum and yet you still are saying "show me" ... are you so sure you haven't brainwashed YOURSELF into not being able to see the other side of things, no matter what is presented?

    Maybe you think the positive stuff Scientologists talk about is just a PR story to cover all the insidious stuff. I certainly think it is. But THEY BELEIVE IT.

    Let me give it a shot:

    Scientologists believe people are a spiritual beings that transcend the body of this life. They believe in personal responsibility, and balancing their life in various areas (dynamics). They believe that being healthy is good for the mind and vice versa.

    I could go on and on. It is, after all, a positive RELIGION to them. I doesn't matter if it was constructed as a scam and run by a human-rights-violating cult.

    Switch gears, pardon the Godwinism:

    In the 1930s, many of the German people believed strongly in the values of their culture, that they had a place in the world in spite of being beaten down under the Kaiser. They believed in order and the right to prosperity. They believed they didn't deserve to pay for the sins of their leaders in war reparations. They believed in their duty to protect their homeland, even with their own lives.

    Many of them could not conceive of the 'relocation facilities' being forced labor death camps. They went along with promises because they believed in GOOD THINGS. They even had some order and prosperity where there was none before. They weren't BAD PEOPLE, and their pride or patriotism wasn't wrong. It was the USE of such to control and conquer.

    The Reich gave the people what they needed, and some of their policies worked. The problem was the intention, the cost, and in the end, the total control.

    To go back to the previous ananolgy: The candy wasn't poisoned; it was a tasty bribe.
  33. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Some of those points are similar to Buddhism (and yet...not) - which wouldn't surprise me as we all know Hubbard was prone to theft.

    That's all very interesting. Nothing has changed though. FZ is still practicing Scientology - regardless if it's outside the confines of the actual CoS. The books, the tech, the methods, the language...same. So it's a bit slower paced, it costs less, and there's less pressure. Doesn't matter - it's Hubbard's game and you're still playing. Why are you even picking up the cans anymore?
  34. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Where did Hubbard write this? FFS, you're just as deflective as they are.
  35. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Here's the disconnect! I think I have it. As an ex-scientologist I can tell you without equivocation that there is a vast sea of difference between these altruisms and reality.

    As a scientologist the benevolent idea that we are all spiritual beings and therefore endowed did not extend to our enemies. The self-serving approach - BUILT INTO THE POLICIES AND TECH - minimized the value of all critics and opponents. The best way to handle them was to get rid of them. Personal responsibility was bent relative to the actual practice because people would do all manner of tricks to get their stats up, ethical or not. And THEN the ethics protection of "being upstat' would allow you to have immunity to go off and do something off the charts and no one could touch you. There is only the third dynamic inside the cult and staff members eat from vending machines.

    I think you have an idealized vision of some kind of utopia or something. The fundamental problem here is that the stated goals rarely if ever matched reality.

    Now go ahead, here's where you tell me I have that wrong too....
  36. Robert S Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    That's a very good question to ask freezoners. But trying to get answers from them is next to impossible. It took me over a week to collect THAT bullshit.
  37. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    No fucking kidding.
  38. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    Oi! That's brilliantly said. All the happy crappy only applies if you're a Scieno - you're fucked if you're not.
  39. King Nerd Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    How hard can it be to find something Hubbard wrote himself to keep someone dividing by zero?
  40. 14G0 Member

    Re: The Hubbard Virus

    I'd help if I didn't already know it would be like trying to get off by fucking a glass of water.

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