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The antivaxers have gone full retard

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by The Internet, Dec 7, 2015.

  1. The Internet Member

    Yeah I see a fair amount of antivax stuff on Scientologists' Facebooks. I think it is because Scientologists love chiropractors and chiros are antivax.

    I have tried to ask chiros why they are against vaccines. Can't they crack backs whether someone has polio or not? But so far I get no direct answer.

    I think Hubbard liked chiros because he saw how easy it was to make money with dress up doctoring and sciency gadgets. As we all know, he ripped off the e-meter from a chiropractor. His shtick, "Don't believe medical authorities; they're all corrupt and forced to follow the party line. Think for yourself by listening to me!" fits well with the chiropractic profession.

    Both Scientology and chiropractic rely upon vitalism or the belief in a transcendent life force that can heal you when you are sick and make you feel good. Illness or distress then must be due to a block of the natural flow of this living energy. If your spine is not straight, that restricts flow. If you eat the wrong foods, that gets in the way. If you are exposed to toxins, that also can block your flow. You must cleanse yourself of the bad things to open your inner being to the wonderful power of Nature.

    This branding of things as natural-good or unnatural-bad comes easily to us. It is as though we are wired to feel this intuition. But it misleads us often.

    I wonder why vaccines got branded as unnatural and bad? Back in the 1700s, people used the actual disease causing organism in ways meant to cause a mild form of disease to prevent serious outbreaks. That is a totally natural thing to do. Then they used a milder virus, cow pox, to prevent small pox. Also natural. No BigPharma involved. Later people learned that they could use dead virus or very weak strains of virus as vaccines. And now only small bits are used in inactivated vaccines.

    I am guessing that anti-vax remains because groups hang together when they have a common enemy.
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  2. DeathHamster Member

    Oh yes.
    They appear to be spamming front groups with the usual suspects.
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/08/13/dont-listen-to-these-medical-voices-or-h/

    The summary of the Lancet article doesn't seem to match Mercola's blog post conclusion.
  3. The Internet Member

    I've heard of the top two, Eisenstein and Tenpenny, but I don't know the other guys. Tenpenny is one of the several quacks on PBS during Pledge Week.

    I want to know why PBS, which gets tax dollars, promotes quacks nearly exclusively. Surely there are a few out there who believe in evidence and reason. Surely some MD who refuses to lie to patients about unregulated supplements is worthy of a bit of promotion.

    I keep running into organizations with "vaccine" in their name that are antivax. The last one I saw was the Global Vaccine Institute. Bleh there are zillions of these things. No wonder America is so confused about science.

    Next time an altie tells me not to listen to the official view promoted by the mainstream media, Imma ask, "Where the fuck is that mainstream view? Give me a link!"
  4. Puglife Member

    I think we just have to agree to disagree "The Internet", you wont convince me and I wont convince you.
    Believing in governmental agencies is not something very common these days. Soon enough you will wake up to it I hope.
    Hm scienceblogs? They got a shitstorm in 2010 lol
    "ScienceBlogs.com have agreed to host a controversial blog on nutrition, written by PepsiCo" - https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2010/jul/07/scienceblogs-blogging-pepsi
  5. The Internet Member

    If a governmental body publishes the scientific consensus, don't just blow it off because you no like guvment. Just make sure the government is not lying about the consensus. Politicians do lie about the consensus on a number of topics, which I feel should be grounds for a big spanking.

    Here is how you can tell if the government is misrepresenting the consensus: important scientific groups will be upset and calling the government out.

    If you are tired of talking about vaccines, no problem with me.

    Government seems crazy a fair amount of the time. Still it is all poor people have to push back against billionaires and big corporations. It's down to us to keep government working for all of us. That is not an easy job but nobody else is gonna do it.
  6. The Internet Member

    I got around to checking this link. I proxy up before going to antivax sites like I do when I go to Scientology sites cuz they do monitor critics.

    I was surprised to see the article is by Mercola. Did you know Mercola promotes Hubbard's detox with saunas and niacin? He is also very anti-psychiatry and he went to a big party a few years back with some celeb Scientologists so he is pretty Sci friendly.

    Mercola jumps around a lot making many assertions that are time consuming to refute. He uses bits of trufax in misleading ways. Example:
    OMG suppressed whistle-blower!

    Well not really. It would have been nice if Mercola had mentioned that this is a 1950s story when the polio vaccine was new.

    In 1959 scientists discovered the SV40 virus in some of the cells they were using to grow the polio virus. So they created a screening test to get rid of those cells. Thus no SV40 in polio vaccines since the early 60s. The virus doesn't seem to do anything in humans although it has been found in some tumors. Still it hasn't been shown to actually cause tumors in people.

    Mercola's real focus in that article is the HPV vaccine. He only threw in stuff about contamination of the polio vax in the 1950s so he could make a "guilt by association" play. But contamination problems are not unique to vaccines. Lots of stuff gets contaminated, usually not too often thankfully.
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  7. White Tara Global Moderator

  8. Random guy Member

    Quote: "Im an organic woman"

    What the heck else could she be? Inorganic? Gaseous? Vapid even?
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  9. White Tara Global Moderator

    LOL most definitely vapid. :p
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  10. The Internet Member

    I has a sad. Robert De Niro is an antivaxxer. I was hoping he had been given bad info and could be straightened out with good info. But his comments in a Today Show interview revealed his firm belief that vaccines caused his kid's autism. Science needs to keep studying the link forever until evidence for it appears, which it must. Because the link exits. Even though no evidence. Ugh. How I hate Kool-Aid and what it does to brains.

    Anyway this copypasta of an email exchange between Andrew Wakefield and DeNiro's wife appeared in a blog but was taken down. Here is the google cache copy:

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  11. The Internet Member

    Grace Hightower, DeNiro's wife, mentions that two doctors spoke with Tribeca about Vaxxed. Here is an article from one of them: http://www.wsj.com/articles/anti-vaccination-lunacy-wont-stop-1459721652

    That is what Wakefield is referring to when he says
    Oh noes defamation! Maybe he does not like this part:
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  12. White Tara Global Moderator

  13. fishypants Moderator


  14. Random guy Member


    I assume she was unnatural to begin with.
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  15. The Internet Member

    This bit bugs me:
    Ian Lipkin wrote an article in the WSJ published April 3 2016 6:14 pm. I was going to say that Grace DeNiro meant WSJ when she wrote NYT. But her email was sent Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 9:39 AM and that is a bigger problem than a typo.

    I can't find anything mentioning Ian Lipkin in the NYT or any other paper on March 30th. Also, how do you do a movie review two days before the film is shown? The first public showing of Vaxxed on Earth was on the evening of April 1st.

    So I do not get it.
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  16. fishypants Moderator

    https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2016/03/31/todd-drezner-cinema-libre-studio-and-vaxxed/
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  17. At least one member of the Nation of Islam, a healthcare worker, has objected to the flu vaccine on religious grounds. From the Volokh Conspiracy website at the Washington Post:

    Hospital employee not entitled to religious exemption from flu vaccine requirement

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...gious-exemption-from-flu-vaccine-requirement/

    * * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *

    In last week’s Robinson v. Children’s Hospital Boston (D. Mass. Apr. 5, 2016), Leontine Robinson — a hospital employee at Children’s Hospital Boston who “was typically one of the first Hospital employees to interact with patients and their family members when they arrived in the emergency department” and who thus had to be in “close physical proximity” to patients — sought an exemption from the hospital’s requirement that patient-care employees get flu vaccines. Robinson is a follower of the Nation of Islam and says she opposes the flu vaccine on religious grounds; the court assumed that this indeed reflects her sincere religious belief.

    But the court concluded that the hospital reasonably accommodated Robinson by (among other things) trying to help her find a non-patient-care position. And the court concluded that the accommodation Robinson sought — an exemption from the immunization requirement for patient-care positions — would have imposed an undue hardship on the employer (paragraph break added):


    Health care employees are at high risk for influenza exposure and can be source of the fatal disease because of their job. Numerous medical organizations support mandatory influenza vaccination for health care workers. The medical evidence in this record demonstrates that the single most effective way to prevent the transmission of influenza is vaccination. In the same vein, the Department requires all licensed state hospitals to provide the influenza vaccine to their employees at no cost and to report their compliance.

    [Footnote: The Court is aware that [the Massachusetts regulation] provides that a hospital “shall not require an employee to receive an influenza vaccine … if: (a) the vaccine is medically contraindicated, which means that administration of influenza vaccine to that individual would likely be detrimental to the individual’s health; (b) vaccination is against the individual’s religious beliefs; or (c) the individual declines the vaccine.” Robinson does not assert a claim based on [the regulation] and the regulation does not affect the Court’s analysis of the Hospital’s Title VII liability. As discussed above, Title VII protects an employee from religious discrimination but permits an employer’s policy if the employer offers a reasonable accommodation or demonstrates that such accommodation would create an undue hardship.]

    Here, in light of the state’s requirements and the Hospital’s understanding of the medical consensus on influenza vaccination, the Hospital decided to achieve the safest possible environment for its patients. With the exception of those with medical issues, the Hospital sought as close to total compliance as possible by requiring all persons who work in or access patient-care areas to be vaccinated. Robinson worked in a patient-care area. She worked closely with patients, regularly sitting near or touching them as she worked on their admission to the Hospital.

    Had the Hospital permitted her to forgo the vaccine but keep her patient-care job, the Hospital could have put the health of vulnerable patients at risk. To allow Robinson to avoid relatively more vulnerable patients and not others would have been unworkable as well. It would have forced the Hospital to arrange its work flow around uncertain factors. On this record, accommodating Robinson’s desire to be vaccine-free in her role would have been an undue hardship because it would have imposed more than a de minimis cost.

    Seems quite right to me. One can argue for or against the Title VII religious accommodation requirement, but that requirement deliberately aims to require only low-cost accommodations (viewing “cost” broadly, to include health dangers as well as financial costs), and courts have generally read it that way. That has been true for Christian religious accommodation claims; it’s likewise true for traditionalist Muslim claims as well as for Nation of Islam claims such as this one.

    UPDATE: I’m afraid I erred in the original version of the story, where I called Robinson a nurse; she worked in the emergency room processing incoming patients, and had to be in close proximity to them (for instance, to put identification bracelets on them), but she wasn’t a nurse. Very sorry for the error; it turns out not to affect the legal analysis, but it was sloppy on my part — my apologies, and thanks to reader mattbc for the correction.

    * * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *

    Eugene Volokh teaches free speech law, religious freedom law, church-state relations law, a First Amendment Amicus Brief Clinic, and tort law, at UCLA School of Law, where he has also often taught copyright law, criminal law, and a seminar on firearms regulation policy.
  18. The Internet Member

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  19. White Tara Global Moderator

    Suddenly things seem to make a whole lot more sense Mr DeNiro. :rolleyes:
  20. The Internet Member

    The Travoltas helped to found Andrew Wakefield's program for autistic children in Austin TX called, "Thoughtful House." So the DeNiros and the Travoltas probably spent some time talking about their shared love for Mr. Wakefield when they vacationed on James "not a Scientologist" Packer's yacht.
  21. DeathHamster Member

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  22. Measles, Back In The Days Before The Marketing Of The Vaccine

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  23. The Internet Member

    Ahem.
  24. Every reply you post confirms that you are a SHILL a paid moron who vomits propaganda. Either that or you are really dumb. Nobody believes ur crap.
    People are waking up to the truth about the gov and corp lies, you shills can't stop it. Get a real job.
    whyurdumb
    This message by whyurdumb has been hidden due to negative ratings. (Show message)
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  25. White Tara Global Moderator

  26. The Internet Member

    BigPharma won't be able to sell measles or polio vaccines if those two diseases are eradicated, which we could do in a short period of time if vaccine rates world wide were high enough.

    Clearly you are helping BigPharma to sell many more vaccines for years to come when you discourage people from getting vaccinated. So I wonder what the drug companies are paying you to spam vaccine fears on Internet forums.
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  27. uranidiott
    This message by uranidiott has been hidden due to negative ratings. (Show message)
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  28. Did the truth hurt ur feelings? aww
  29. White Tara Global Moderator

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

    You and people like you expose innocent unvaccinated newborns, and others with compromised immune systems, by undermining herd immunity.
    I would ask you to read that link and inform yourself, but I'm guessing you are fixed in your very marginal viewpoint, and are so terrified of being wrong that you will never hear a word said contrary to your unsubstantiated views on vaccines.

    Challenge:
    Substantiate or STFU.
    Quality information from scientific resources, not histrionic whining and antivaxxer propaganda.

    lets see what actual evidence you can produce?
  30. White Tara Global Moderator

    oh damn your post got downvoted before I got a chance to post mine, lemme just see if I can quote it back into existence.
  31. White Tara Global Moderator

  32. Disambiguation Global Moderator

  33. The Internet Member

    Seems that 1998 was not the first time Wakefield promoted an MMR scare. He tried to say the MMR causes Chron's disease 5 years earlier, in 1993. But that scare did not catch on. I wonder if the same attorney who paid him hundreds of thousands of pounds for the 1998 scare also helped him out with the 1993 scare.

    wakefield timeline.jpg
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  34. White Tara Global Moderator

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  35. anon8109 Member

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  36. ArnieLerma Member

  37. ArnieLerma Member

    Lenin said "The best way to control the opposition is to become it"

    If I were running a global fraud, I would WELCOME scientologists to oppose me. The fact of being opposed by $cientology discredits by mere association those who actually know something of value and have been moved to become activists, those who are not hypnotized zombies for "Ron". This is one METHOD used for Truth Control, however, it requires that one not stop thinking after the association with scientology (or other emotional charged wording) is invoked such as 'holocaust denier') is mentioned..
    .
    When thinking stops the door to your subconscious is left unguarded. as was intended by the master manipulators managing our perceptions of reality.

    Arnie Lerma.

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