Standardized testing and government controlled education

Discussion in 'Think Tank' started by Hugh Bris, Jun 8, 2015.

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  1. Hugh Bris Member

    Ever wonder why the UN allows it? Could it be a right?

    Your prejudices are showing, Random. Homeschooling is a perfectly legitimate way to educate people. I'd like to see you show your work in support of your statement.
  2. Random guy Member

    Sure, home-schooling is a perfectly legitimate way of educating people, it's just not a problem free one (what system isn't problem free though...).

    There are perfectly acceptable reasons to teach the kids yourself (school's way off, excessive bullying, oppressive state), but there's also a number of shitty reasons (not trusting secular teachers, school not teaching according to my invisible friends sacred texts, shool teaching parts of science i don't want my kid to know about). Seeing what Caleb Green wrote, there's no shortage of people home-schooling students for the latter reasons.

    There's a continuum of schooling systems ranging from public school systems via various special tutoring system schools and private schools to home-schooling. The madrassas that breed all kinds of religious extremists fit into this picture as well.
  3. Hugh Bris Member

    Do you think that gov schools are indoctrination free?
  4. Random guy Member

    No. Depending on the state, the indoctrination can be good or bad (or a mix).

    Basic state indoctrination over here cover such topics as an intro to democracy, history of the state, some basics of human rights and a bit of anti-racism and anti-misogyny.
  5. Schools indoctrinate, it's their mission. State schools at least give the basic knowledge you need to navigate the culture. Homeschooling is good if done well same as if it's done well in state schools. IMHO there should be competency tests annually. Maybe Karen would parse better. Cults abuse homeschooling but if they have the option to keep their kids from indoctrination/ including what passes for truth at the time there's no way around it.
    how to monitor child welfare outside of schools?
  6. Disambiguation Global Moderator

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  7. Random guy Member

    What would be interesting is seeing the percentage of parents who home-school because they do not want their children to be indoctrinated in the common norms of society. At least where I'm from, the majority of home-schooling parents do so because the public school isn't Christian enough or because they do not rust non-Muslims with their children.
  8. Hugh Bris Member

    Wow. Too much trust in people who do not care about you. Indoctrination is not a good thing, if the idea is to teach a person to think. In fact, they are polar opposites, using one precludes using the other.

    The FF in the US thought democracy was a bad thing. They created a republic, when they could have created most anything, they chose a Republic. They did not chose a democracy, having actually read history, and understanding what it leads to. We have, seemingly, forgotten that lesson.

    Why is Democracy taught now as a good thing, considering that we were not set up as one and the FF warned us against them?
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  9. Random guy Member

    Can we not do the "my founding fathers were better than your founding fathers"-thing and stick to the topic?

    It should be uncontroversial that home-schooling is often done for all the wrong reasons, and a system should be sought to allow for oversight and normal social control mechanisms to work in a home-school setting. Isolating children from the society is a recipe for abuse.
  10. Hugh Bris Member

    Your prejudices are showing, sir, as well as your desire for lack of diversity. Teaching everyone the same lies is not education, it is indoctrination.

    It should be obvious that government mandated schooling is done for all the wrong reasons, such as social control, and that it is a desire to control the citizens, not to educate them.

    I will repeat, Indoctrination precludes and supplants education, They are mutually exclusive.
  11. Random guy Member

    So, pointing out that insular groups with lack of social exchange with the rest of society is a breeding ground for abuse is is prejudice?

    Diversity has many roots, school isn't everything. You had classmates that turned out radically different from yourself, didn't you? The idea is not uniformity, it's having a bit of common ground, and in this case, allowing the normal social security system of friendship and gossip to act as a first line defence against abuse by adults.

    Gosh, yes! How dear the state mandate that all should be able to read read, write and do math and basic science?

    That's fairly obviously bollox. North Koran kinds can read and write. It's even possible to learn something from propaganda. Any education, no matter how "neutral" cannot help to convey some values of the educator. An either/or model is far to simplistic to be of much use.
  12. Alex Freedom Member

    I live in Virginia and in Virginia the state government controls all education by issuing standards of learning that all schools must follow
    Many states across the country also have similar problems
    Now I'm not sure how you guys want to handle this but this is the link to their website
    If you are in the area here is their address
    101 N 14th St, Richmond Virginia
    And their phone number (804) 225 2020

    Attached Files:

  13. DeathHamster Member

    And why do you say that standards are a bad thing?
  14. Alex Freedom Member

    The main reason I disagree with standardized testing is that students only learn the minimum that the government mandates.
    I also resent the way the tests affect teachers
  15. Hugh Bris Member

    I get the feeling you haven't actually spent a lot of time with home schooled kids. I have, Christian, and non Christian. (I am atheist).

    I don't know how many home schooled people you have known in your life, but the ones I have known have been fully capable of handling society in all its glory. They were more capable in school, and were better able to handle what society threw at them.
    It's interesting that you say that home schooled lack societal skills, but I've found it to be just the opposite. Kids that are public schooled lack the diversity that used to be normal. If all the people you deal with are peers and authority figures, you will have a slanted view of the world. Home schooled kids deal with peers, but they also deal with regular people who are neither peers nor authority figures, yet may be adults, or younger children. That gives them broader social skills..

    And when the 'common ground' is lies, as is the case in US schools? When you have One source, then he better damn well be perfect. But oops, that can't be, so better have competition, That works far better than the top down approach,

    In the US there was never any problem about the children learning. Literacy was near universal, as I understand it (excepting the Blacks of course.)

    The reason mandated schooling came into existence was as a way to control the population. Read horace Mann.
    This should be pretty obvious, if you've read the literature on the topic. It is based on Prussian methods that are not conducive to a free society.

    Indoctrination that is voluntary is OK with me. If you join the Marines, you will be indoctrinated into the values of the Marines. But involuntary indoctrination is brainwashing, nothing less. And since the school kids have no choice, then it is not freedom they are pushing, but conformity.

    I was lied to about history constantly. I figured out pretty early that Lincoln didn't free the slaves and that Columbus wasn't alone in thinking the world was round (he thought it to be much smaller around than his peers)

    So, why did my school lie to me about easily checked historical events? I'm thinking it's because they know that low information voters are far more easily led by the nose than people who have actually studied history.
  16. Alex Freedom Member

    Does Anonymous still do DDOS operations
  17. Hugh Bris Member

    Standards can be a good thing. I'm glad that a pound and a kilogram mean the same thing in North America that it means in Europe.

    But standards in education stifle innovation. They replace diversity and personal judgement of the teacher with a top down approach that substitutes the teacher's judgement for a bureaucrat 3000 miles away with no stake in the individual students, only in the aggregate numbers.

    That is a horrid disservice to the students, who are forced to take tests that are worthless to them, and a waste of their time. It gives them nothing and wastes a lot of time on worthless dot filling.

    But all students know what a #2 pencil is. So, I suppose there's that. We all have that in common.
  18. No.
  19. Alex Freedom Member

    That's what I believe and the fact that the entire school can suffer if all the students don't reach a certain passing percent.
    And teacher are treated very poorly by principles and superintendents
  20. Alex Freedom Member

    AWW they don't darn i wanted to be part of one hahaha
    It seamed like a rather effective tactic
  21. anon8109 Member

    I think standards in education are necessary as a form of quality assurance.

    Don't you want to know that the education you are receiving is at least as good as anywhere else in the country? Don't you want your teachers to be objectively evaluated based on how effective they are at teaching?

    Although standardization does come with its own set of problems, and I think Hugh Bris makes good points, the benefits outweigh the costs nonetheless. If there are problems with the tests or the teacher evaluations, then these can be improved.
  22. Alex Freedom Member

    Well yes you make a good point I guess we won't be seeing a anon message to the department of education hahahaha. Perhaps they should just work towords improvement.
  23. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    WWP does not DDOS.
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  24. Alex Freedom Member

    Hahaha ok cool I'm new to this but that's good to know
  25. Hugh Bris Member

    How do you measure if a child has learned to think for himself? Isn't that the true measure of an educational system?

    Education is not an assembly line process, and trying to make it so just hurts the kids, who might be figuring out that they are pawns in a game, not students in a school. The opt out movement against common core gives me hope people are seeing that testing is for the government and administrators, not the kids.

    A school's duty is not to fill a child's head with facts and figures, it is to give him the tools he needs (grammar, logic, rhetoric, math) that allow the child to figure it out on his own. Anything else is just a waste of the child's time. Indoctrinating him into the mores of society is not a school's duty. teaching him to think is.
  26. anon8109 Member

    I don't see how standardization is in conflict with teaching kids to think.

    I am guessing that what you are actually unhappy with is not standardization itself, but its current implementation. Maybe you think the curriculum needs adjusting, or the test format needs tweaking, or some other aspect of standardization can be improved upon.

    Standardization acts as a minimum level of quality control, like say USDA labels, or FDA approvals. Everyone needs to meet some basic requirements. This doesn't mean that schools and teachers must only do the minimum required.
  27. Hugh Bris Member

    Are you sure the standards will help? How will it be tested? Is there a trial program, or are we all in? Is there a way to see if they help, or is it just assumed they will, with no further testing (of the plan itself) needed? Can we opt out, or is this mandatory? Doesn't a mandatory participation in an experiment violate basic ethical rules of research?

    Do you think these new standards will produce literate students in the ghetto schools? Do you think that this is what those students need, new standards to meet?

    I could go on but you get the point.

    I've heard of plenty of children graduating public high school being functionally illiterate.

    But I have never heard of a student who went through any sort of private or home schooling and came out of the process illiterate. That may be confirmation bias, but I can't see making it through a few years of Catholic school not learning to read.

    That suggests its not testing but the institution itself that is the issue.
  28. anon8109 Member

    Those are important questions and I don't know the answers. Standardization is certainly no panacea, but I still think it better to have it than not to. Getting it right though certainly isn't easy and there will be mistakes made. Given time though, errors will be corrected and the system improved.
  29. Children can come out of Catholic Schools unable to read because their minds were broken by crazy nuns. People come out of charter schools with no better education than from public schools. The arguements about standardization failing in ghetto schools is spurious. All educational efforts break down in ghetto schools. That includes any schools in Louisiana.
  30. Hugh Bris Member

    If your last sentence were true don't you think we'd see the benefits by now? These problems have been going on all my life. This happens every few years, some 'crisis' that needs gov attention, some fix is offered, and five or ten years later there is much hand wringing about the same damn issue.

    All these standards are just ways to push the problem a few years down the path. Without strict accountability, which the government and unions won't allow, nothing substantive will change. It'll be rearranging the deck chairs...

    Given our current system, I think the basic starting point is to give each child his share of the education budget and let them (parents and students) decide how their child should be educated. That would start the competition to teach the kids well.
  31. I'd hazard to say that a school has a duty of Both giving a student the tools he needs to figure things out, AND filling the student's head with important facts and figures. And the learning of facts and figures wasn't a waste of my time in school, because I had some time left over after they taught me how to think.

    I like knowing the speed of light, the Pythagorean theorem, the Planck equation, classical mechanics, and atomic theory. I appreciate that my school took the time to teach me these concepts in addition to teaching me how to think. I would have no problem with requiring other students who come after to also demonstrate basic knowledge of these and other concepts. Establishing rigorous educational standards helps to ensure that our children have a fundamental understanding of the world around them, so that they can successfully compete with their peers from other countries who are just as capable of both learning how to think and learning facts and figures in their own schools with their own rigorous educational standards.

    Educational standards do not preclude schools from teaching their students how to think. You seem to think that it's one or the other. Schools can do both, and do both well.
  32. DeathHamster Member

    Are you fucking kidding me?
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  33. Idk if you've been living backwards-years, but the trends say the opposite.

    Percentage of high school graduates who completed selected mathematics and science courses in high school: 1990 and 2009
    Source -

    I know for a fact that over the decades, a growing percentage of high schools have offered calculus and other advanced mathematics courses. I knew many of my teachers from a generation or two before me went to schools that did NOT offer calculus. I'd offer this as more evidence that establishing ever-increasing educational standards will actually improve the quality of the education given and that of the final product - the graduate.
  34. Random guy Member

    Only 3, and they had problems integrating into society. There are obviously very capable parents that know how to school their children, but they tend to have full time jobs (because they actually have valuable skills) and send their children to a school. Those that tend to insist on home schooling in the larger cities (where I live) are usually people who so distrust the society they don't want their children subject to heathen influence (e.g. learning the local language, learning basic science and a touch of critical thinking).

    My main objection has nothing to do with this though. My point is that if you take the children out of school and keep them at home, any problem they have are less likely to be picked up by friends and teachers. Combine that with being indoctrinated into an extremely authoritative world-view, where the local holy-man (and it's always a man) has the last say, and you get a system where sexual abuse have very little restraints.

    My country is not better than any other with regards to paedophilia. Horrible and ugly cases pop up here occasionally, and very often it's the school or friends that make the initial discovery. Take the children out of those environments, and the chance sexual abuse is discovered is drastically lowered.

    That's exactly the problem over here, they don't get to deal with "normal people". The very reason many of them are home schooled is so that they won't be subject to normal influence. The end result is that they only have their own sect as an arena to find jobs and mates. It's basically the same mechanism insulation keeping people in scientology, even though they might want to leave.

    Indoctrination can be good and bad. Raising a child is actually a long haul of indoctrination, teaching them to chew with their mouth closed and don't fart at the table just because. Teaching that one group of people are sub-humans would be bad indoctrination, teaching that it's stupid to drink and drive is good indoctrination.

    The Marines (your example) are educating adults who presumably are old enough to evaluate what the're being taught. The sticky point is children. I think the best we can do is being open about what is indoctrination. That's the direction schools and state seems to take here. It's "here are the values we'd like you to have, because that will make society run smoother". It's a bit of secular humanism and democratic values, nothing very revolutionary.

    Funny, I was never were taught that in school. From what I can gather, the idea that people thought the world was flat during the Middle Ages actually comes from the 19th century US culture wars. The round Earth concept probably hail back to prehistory.
  35. I hate standardized testing it is destroying our schools systems and taking away student rights completely
  36. Hugh Bris Member

    Would I kid you?
  37. Alex Freedom Member

    I know i started this feed about education but I've come across some chilling videos about FEMA and their "internment camps" is it true what all these articles about Fema and their camps. There where also pictures about gas chambers ? and NSA watch lists? can anyone explain that?

    fema-camps-locations.jpg?w=627.jpg fema-camps-in-america.jpg l View attachment images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQt28lAhOIkSv7If-8PKaj7bnNRBbrtt View attachment
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  38. DeathHamster Member

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  39. Darth Alor Member

    i refuse to lurk moar, i will say this, school and places of learning are no longer geared towards further learning, but simplistic memorization. Being a HS student i know firsthand that school is merely a memory game, theres little to no freedom to really learn and understand it, we move from subject to subject hoping we get good test scores and that the kids just remember, thats how it works.
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