Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by DeathHamster, May 15, 2011.
we already shot holes in this. do better.
Which is relevant how?
No, but nice try and I understand your confusion. There are services provided for which I gladly pay, my doctor, my mechanic, my plummer, my ISP are all in that category. That is commerce. We pay for goods and services. They have a price tag. So does your church, therefore it is more commerce then church. Seriously, if your church really wanted to clear the planet and honestly thought that it was doing the greater good for the planet, wouldn't it want everyone to have it and be willing to do it for free simply because it is the right thing to do? If it must charge for the service, it is not a church, it is a business.
Hindu, Buddists, Christians, Muslims, really any religion that you can think of will gladly tell you what they are about and freely offer their help to reach whatever spiritual goal they have not for a price,but because they believe that it is the right thing to do.
Honest help of this nature is given freely with no strings attached, from the heart. You never hear Scientologists talking about the heart.
The truth shall set you free. And it is free.
I like you.
You are a breath of fresh air.
Please continue posting.
So the ex memeber of the church of Scientology list doesn't make sense to you?
But something as confusing as Dianetics does? (and it is obvious you are no where near OTIII, because if that makes sense to you, then you may want to ask youself why a simple documented list does not)
So you are saying that 1,456 names on that list with their documented stories and court documents (which you can check yourself) makes no sense to you? Keep in mind, that there are thousands more who left, (especially in the 1980's when Misvaige took over) but have not come forward and spoke out publically due to fear of fair game tactics and or family disconnection of family members still inside.
You also say that if the people on the list had problems, that Scientology has written policies to more or less address the problems they were having? Like family disconnection or disconnection in general? What would be LRH's policy for that?
"To fail or refuse to disconnect from a suppressive person not only denies the PTS case gain, it is also supportive of the suppressive — in itself a Suppressive act. And it must be so labelled."
- L. Ron Hubbard in "HCOB 10 Sept 83 “PTS-ness and Disconnection”
Oh! I see, so Hubbard taught that it is much better to disconnect from a suppressive person, like for instance your mother (if she was labled a suppressive) because you (the PTS) will be denied case gain and to not diconnect is in itself a suppresive act?
Wow ok, I guess if you are not going to have case gain, shit, you better stop talkling to your family. It's so worth it to disconnect from someone who gave birth to you and raised you and to break their heart rather than lose case gain. Ethical?
and just for shits and giggles....
here is a quote from the Declaration of Human Rights: (yeah I know just wog law)
"No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.» — Article 12 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
And oh yes, your reference of David Miscavige being at the top of the food chain? lol!
Is it because he is to tiny and easy to swallow? lol I kid...
Seriously, to bring up Marty and Mike to try to sway away from the original question?
I have no idea why two grown men would allow a tiny tryrant to hit and abuse them, (or any church member for that matter) but there are too many people besides those two who also witnessed Miscavige abusing people. EDITED: I think that mental diress, sleep deprivation, fear of the oustide world, fear of being put on the RPF, and the threat of losing their eternity had a big play in it. Yah think?
Whether it be physcial or mental abuse, too many people have witnessed the rage of Miscavige. There are plenty of documented stories to back these claims up. You just have to first read the data, review the data, and then accept it. After all, you read review and accept everything that Hubbard wrote. Even though there is NO actual documented data to back up the majority of what he wrote, especially about body thetans, clears, MEST and OT's.
You are currently paying to go up the bridge. A "bridge" which only existed in Hubbard's mind. There is not scientific or any other data to back up that the bridge exists.
Ask yourself why you accept the undocumented data of Scientology doctrine and not the documented data that is out there for you to see for yourself.
Why does nobody in the seaorg defend themselves against Miscavige?
and more thing ScnTO....
keep in mind that many people on the ex COS member list, are independent scientologists still using the tech. Publics that are now free of COS regging and the financial drain and ex staff and ex Sea orgers who are free from the suppression of David Miscavige.
You too can become an independent scientologist and not support the abuse of staff and Sea Orgers by David Miscavige and stop supporting his rich lifestyle with your "donations".
Although I don't think the Independent movement is a way to free yourself of the mind hold that the tech can have on someone, people are free to believe in what they want. But at least these independents are not supporting the COS of the abuses doled out by the COS any more.
It is ok to believe in what you want, but when it is attatched to an abusive organization, that is guilty of many crimes and abuses, it's time to step away.
-- Bruce Hines, ex-Sea Org http://coanon.org/press/?p=23 (there's more at the link)
This thread is the x-men danger room
-John Peeler, ex-Sea Org http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28150&p=333653&hilit=gold base#p333653 ("Twin A" = Maureen Bolstad, btw)
^^^ Many stories just like these on the ex COS member list
alls you have to do is read them.
or you can hear people's stories of abuse
this is just a few, there are more
Do any of these documented videos from actual ex COS members that were taped at a conference make sense to you?
The conference took place at the Center for Inquiry's Steve Allen Theater in Hollywood, California.
And by the way, this is WHY I FIGHT!
Empirical evidence is such a wonderful thing. ScnTO, watch. For the sake of your own well-being, watch. It's okay. The videos will not hurt you. They can only help you. After all, that's why we're here. Not to openly mock you (okay, well, maybe some Anons might be) but to help you truly understand. We want to unplug you from the machine and open your eyes to the world around you.
Dare to challenge. There's nothing wrong with it. Dare to ask questions and engage in meaningful dialogue that does not consist entirely of copypasta and Star Trek quotes. It's okay to have doubts about Scientology- and you will, no question. You will have your doubts. And your doubts are valid.
Go ahead. Open your eyes and ears. See for yourself. And when the time comes that you've had enough of the lies, the deceit and the con and you finally decide to walk out of the org for the last time and turn your back on this criminal organization, Anonymous will be there with a hug, a handshake and a nice piece of delicious caek for you. You see, we're not as bad as your handlers make us out to be. Scientology only cares about your money. Anonymous cares about everything else.
With most groups that don't use Totalitarian Enslavement, when you want out, you can just walk out the door.
Here's the thing, ScnTo. I don't care about debating whether Scientology is a religion or not. I don't care about whether you believe in past lives, or how you think the brain works. I care about the abuses perpetrated by the organization of the Church of Scientology, that every current CoS member seems to have no problem turning a blind eye to. Please refer to the links from RightOn's list and then keep looking. (If you're even a Scientologist. You might be just a run-of-the-mill non-Sci troll, but whatevs.)
I'm loath to post in this thread anymore at all (although I can't seem to stop reading it--still working on that), because it appears fairly fruitless at this point and is now distracting from potentially productive threads. Which might just be your whole point, if you follow in the tradition of the Sci trolls of the olden days.
But just in case:
Whether this thread was meant as a distraction or not....(to not work on other threads)
I have no problem with multi tasking! lol!
and when or if I grow tired of this thread or not, and if I was to vanish tomorrow....
The Ex COS member list will be forever on the internet for all to see and there are plenty of people to take my place.
Why? Wanna fair-game him/her?
So you admit that "donations" to scientology are NOT donations. VWD, mate.
What's a fair-gamed person look like? It sounds as if you know.
Looks like we have found you. No illegal methods were needed... so, go fuck yourself.
You mocked it all up.
Now, you are Clear.
if this is true....
then here is some dox:
Al Buttnor, spokesman of the church in Canada, says that it is not unaccustomed that new members of a religion as the Scientology leave it for, as explains it the professor of university Methodist Leonie Kliver " to transform small anomaly into monstrous errors. They transform their personal disappointment into malicious treason. "
10/27/94 AL BUTTNOR OFC PUBL AFFAIR
SPONSORS FOR TOTAL FREEDOM- Awarded to those who donate $5,000.00 US
Allan Anthony Buttnor
Al Buttnor Writes My Husband
From: yduzitmatter <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Al Buttnor write's my husband !
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 22:49:25 -0500
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF TORONTO
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS
Pastor William Palmer
Dear Pastor Palmer:
I am very sorry to have to write to you. It is a very difficult matter to broach because perhaps you are not even aware of the situation.
I am sorry to tell you that your wife has become involved in a hate campaign against our religion in Toronto both by her regualr postings to the internet on a newsgroup and by her recent participation in pickets at our Church. We are not sure why she is doing this.
We have discussed this matter with several of our Lutheran Friends and they suggested that we wrtie to you in an effort to open a door communication and hopefully reconciliation. It was even suggested to us that a mediator from COnrad Grebel COllege may be of benefit to resolve the situation if necessary and we agree that this may be helpful.
COmmunication can resolve all things. I hope this is a matter we will be able to discuss.
Please feel free to write me at your earliest convenience.
Yours Sincerely, Rev[sic]. Al Buttnor
20 November, 2001
Mr. Al Buttnor
696 Yonge Street,
M4Y 2A7 Dear Mr. Buttnor:
I am in receipt of your letter dated November 14th,2001.
I am aware of my wife's activities in regard to Scientology both on the internet and her participation in peaceful pickets of the Toronto Org.
I do not believe that we have anything to discuss in this regard either personally or with a mediator. I will be sending a copy of your letter and my reply to my Bishop's Office. Please do not contact me again as there is nothing for us to discuss.
Rev. William Palmer
there is more:
Edmonton Journal Article re: Al Buttnor, Aug 10, 1995
A bit of background information is needed before you read this article. This story involves the investigation that took place after the arrest of Al Buttnor in Edmonton in 1991....
Wasn't that nice of me?
so which is it?
Allan Anthony Buttnor
all of the above?
Question... gee ScnTO, why do Scientologists change their names so often?
I know Sea Orgers from other countries do this to stay under the radar once their visa is up.
There are so many people in COS who change their names or use variations why ScnTO?
Especially the women who change their married name more often than they rotate their tires.
So, what was with the biology lesson earlier ITT?
Buttnor (ScnTO) asked if meat thinks. He received his answer (tho not from me).
Brain, brain, what is "brain"?!
why would AL Buttnor write:
"I am sorry to tell you that your wife has become involved in a hate campaign against our religion in Toronto both by her regualr postings to the internet on a newsgroup and by her recent participation in pickets at our Church. We are not sure why she is doing this.
We have discussed this matter with several of our Lutheran Friends and they suggested that we wrtie to you in an effort to open a door communication and hopefully reconciliation"
what was this all about? hmmm?
Why would Al Buttnor be of such concern about was was written by someone on the internet or if they attennded a picket? Interesting!
And to write this person's husband? What kind of reconciliation did Al Buttnor have in mind? Hoping to silence the person sepaking out? Squashing one's freedom of speech? And "Discussed this matter with SEVERAL of our Lutheran Friends"
hmmmm contacting people when you have no right or business to and contacting and discussing this person' actions with other people?
WOW Sounds an awful lot like fair game to me. This letter was dated 2001
Hey ScnTO, I thought you said fair game was cancelled long ago??
But yet there you are writing a letter to soemone's husband. ANd talking to others to try to descredit them.
I can't believe how depressing it is to wake up and find that there are ten pages of this drivel that I haven't seen yet and have to face the excruciating dilemma: Do I have enough will power to walk away from the train wreck or will I succumb to mind numbing temptation....
I'm a train wreck whore.
Please, please let there be lots of pictures of contortionists and rainbows and food so it goes by quickly.
Spookiest Story December 23, 1999, Enzo Di Matteo, NOW Magazine
Scientology goes visiting July 22, 1999, Enzo Di Matteo, NOW Magazine
It's mostly articles about brains. I wouldn't bother with it if I were you.
Too late, but I skimmed the brains info and the last couple of pages had some worthwhile stuff.
Shit, I'll be able to write my master's thesis after reading all that... lol
wow again, more accounts of fair game even though you said Hubbard cancelled that policy?
Those two stroies sated 1999, sounds like fair game to me Mr. Buttnor?
so, not cancelled then huh?
BWA HA HA!!!!
I forget, was Buttnor's son shot in a drug deal gone wrong, or was it an OD?
Time for Killah Kitteh
For ScnTO (Buttnor)
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