Scientology Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Scientology Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Scientology Cult in Gross and Wilful Violation of Federal Judge's Order : Indybay

From the article:

Scientology Cult in Gross and Wilful Violation of Federal Judge's Order

by Dr. Lilly von Marcab
Friday Jul 11th, 2008 11:03 PM

The Scientology cult was ordered by US Federal judge Gerhardt Gesell in 1971 to place very explicit and detailed warning labels on each of their special gizmo "E-Meter" devices, as well as on all documents and publications in which the E-Meter is mentioned. The E-Meter is just a primitive lie-detector machine, but to Scientologists it is simply a fantastic apparatus. After a brief initial gesture of compliance, Scientology proceeded to disregard virtually every aspect of Judge Gesell's ruling.

...

Moar available at link above.


Comment: Congratulations due yet again to Dr. von Marcab! When the book is written, as hopefully some Anon will, surely you will feature strongly in our history as the Ministress of Truth and Counter-Propaganda!



If that weren't so 1984, I'd be shivering in sexual pleasure!

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: "Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Lilly. You are wonderful.

Edit: Actually, having now read the judge's opinion, it ends with these words:

In other words, what you have quoted is not the court order and therefore cannot itself be breached. Presumably, the court order reflected the wording of the opinion, but to make a case the order itself should be quoted.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Thanks!

But hmmmm... ransacking through Lexis-Nexis, I can't see that such a follow-up was ever published... Checking to the end of 1973, a couple of denied appeals re: importing e-meters; then a flurry of IRS lawsuits (also a Scilon sex offender); several cases in which Scientology precedent was cited...

Well, even so! :wink:

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

My 3 favourite posters...all in a row. I can't resist being #4......

Excellent work as always Ms Lily

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Flattery will get you everywhere.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

This... is the good shit.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Aww, "Thanks but I just work here! Too bad this shit don't pay!"

Anyway, if this is true then wtf happened? I've never seen an emeter. They do in fact have some sort of warning on the bottom (Yes/No)? The reality is nobody knows what's in that seekrit IRS agreement, and even if the IRS has no jurisdiction over the labeling judgment, if they were willing to to violate the constitution who says they didn't include capitulation clauses promising them more?

If there is nothing on record, then we need to begin pushing the question of "Where's the Sticker?"

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

First, the IRS has no jurisdiction to over-rule a court order.

Second, we've seen the IRS secret agreement. It ain't so sekrit any more.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

No, the sticker is supposed to be quite prominent and explicitly worded in some detail (i.e. not on the bottom, totally watered down). Second, they are not supposed to even use the e-meter except in a clearly religious context (i.e. not on naive rubes in the subway station). Third, they are not allowed to test for stress or any health condition. etc. etc. etc. They are ignoring nearly all of what the judge wanted them to do.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

OK, but we're moving out of the depth of my skill set. What's the next step to making this an issue for Co$? Do we write the FDA or the Justice Department Solicitor General or what? The FBI? Is the Judge still alive?

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Multiple and parallel approaches. The judge has already kicked his bucket; The idea now is to get the attention of either/both the FDA and Justice Department. This can be done at the same time as getting Big Media/60 minutes/Nightline involved. We all know by now how hard it is to get these people to pay attention and actually do something about the cult, but it seems to me that the violation in this case is pretty darn "cut and dry." I really think that if lots of people focused on this particular issue for a few weeks (out of the many worthwhile and pressing issues -- not to exclude these others, but just to emphasize this one a bit) we might be able to get an order that would stop all USA stress testing with immediate effect. Not that this ends the cult immediately, but it would be a nice "check," if not actually "check-mate." Though it could be that, too, if investigations go a little deeper...!

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

I just don't know how many people it'll take for us to get enough letters through to interest 60 Minutes. It's been six months and so far we're only slowly making strides; good ones, but I don't know if we have enough voice to get the FDA off its ass in the face of bullshit from the Cult. To you and me it is very cut and dried, but to a Co$ full-on court press with some money grubbing shyster lawyer mounting the "usual," you have to have a lot of momentum built up to get anyone to take notice. Don't know if we're there yet, guess we won't know til we try.

Remember that any real investigation of almost anything Co$ has said and done in the last 50 years will reveal skeletons of massive proportions, but also remember that apparently the giant hasn't woken up yet. Co$ will literally "DO ANYTHING" to avoid an in depth civil or criminal investigation at this point. There is too much information on the outside and with any luck lackeys like Tommy Davis will soon see how much their future lives depend on not being anywhere around David Miscavige and "first one out gets to write a best-seller."

Any investigation into Co$ almost anywhere will yield delicious caek. I just have yet to figure out which chink in the armor is going to attract enough attention from the government so that they send around the V&.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

The funny thing about armor is that when you beat on it long and hard enough, any little chink can become a gaping vulnerability. I think we already know Anon has the longevity and tenacity to do so; why not consider and pursue all options?

That said, some (like this one) will always stand out. The place to start is probably with an inquiry as to the final order, when it was issued and what it contains -- in actual print or photocopy if at all possible. With that in hand, almost any avenue is the right one. The Justice Department may be the best bet for getting ahold of it, followed by a flood of formal complains to the FDA citing the order. The FDA is perfectly capable of getting the JD further involved on their own, if it is even needed. (Depending on the nature of the final order, it may not be.)

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Followup, I just checked the FDA's website for any mention of all this. Included on the docket for Jan 3 2008 is this: 2006P-0390 Order the Church of Scientology to clearly disclose the potential health hazards inherent in the use of the E-meter and Scientology's practice of "auditing".

Looking further it is also on the docket for April 6, 2007.

Here is the traditional "I'm not a Scientologist, but..." comment issued on the docket item:
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/06p0390/06P-0390-EC19.htm

And if you look hard enough, they have a copy of the interview with William Goodrich. Just enter "e-meter" in the search field and scroll down.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

OK, so this shit is known and under discussion? For how long has it been so, and why the hell hasn't it become fines, penalties, ,and prison?

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

I have a copy of the original petition and the FDA response letter. (They archive everything...) You can get the PDF here:
http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubl...46241e&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf

The letter is dated March 16, 2007. Doing a little quick Googling on the petitioner reveals that Lerma knows something of this -- there is an online article prefixed with a comment from him:
An Opinion/Editorial - the Truth...within reason

The author is our petitioner... wonder if he's aware of and/or involved in Chanology yet.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

It's a bit separate issue, but potentially related. A guy called Jerry Staton filed a petition for this a couple of years ago, but his petition doesn't even mention Gesell or the Gesell ruling. It's about actual health hazards. Kind of a roundabout way to go. I could be wrong, but I think Staton's approach is the kind of thing that takes years and years to get a decision for...

Go to here: Search for Scientology, open PDF:
US FDA/CDRH: CDRH Petitions

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Staton's petition was based on the Wollersheim judgment - ie that Wollersheim's auditing was coercive. However, the court did not state that auditing was necessarily coercive, but that they found evidence of coercion in Larry's case. So, Staton's petition has no hope of success on that basis.

There is a second basis to his petition which I've not looked at.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

I really can't think of anything more annoying than clicking on an article expecting to read about some huge win against the scilons, only to find a tepid article detailing common knowledge for enturbulators and saying "They SHOULD get nailed for this!"

They SHOULD get nailed for a million things we've found, but they never DO. When we win, let us know. Otherwise, present info as info, not wins.

/grumpy

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Great article! the more this is pushed the better :smile: you're not allowed to just 'forget' court orders god damn it.

could you check post 99 here and see if they're still after help please?

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

I think our most effective means of curbing secular use of the "gadget" (Judge Gesell' term) in public places are raids. Big signs saying, "Stress testing is illegal" "CoS is violating the law"etc. Handouts informing potential victims, particularly of the contract requirement. We just add this tactic to what we are already doing, which in some places has already curtailed the fraudulent activity.

Effectively petitioning the FDA and the Justice Department will not only curb or eliminate secular use of the gadget, compliance will trigger massive enturbulation within the cult. Every label, every piece of literature, every contract must be revised. Again, this furnishes more ammo for our campaigns with the media and for our raids. It is not clear if there will ever be government action. Their foot-dragging inaction is also ammo for us. Perhaps public announcement of the issue in a speech at the Ovar 9000 Man March would be effective. This is not as hot an issue as the tax exemption. It is basically an administrtative issue. Everyone can get behind that, even, perhaps Congressmen. The churches, who are ambivalent actors in the exemption issue because of possible threat to their legimate privileges, can also get behind this issue.

I think the blogosphere is an effective front to raise awareness. Among lawyers this is at least a moderately interesting case of the legal system, administrative compliance, and first amendment issues. Someone like Eugene Volokh I think would blog about this. Bloggers keep pressure on issues in a way the old media can't. They network with other bloggers. They blogswarm and accomplish significant things like ousting Trent Lott from being Majority Leader in two weeks. Relationships with individual bloggers are more easy to achieve than with old media and the government.

The next fruitful means of dissemination is the alternative media. Tony Ortega is a great example. Many of the local free alt newspapers are owned by Village Voice Media. They are less bound by anonymous source requirements. They typically target young professionals and some do investigative reporting. The mainstream media are tougher to educate and establish relationships with. We are making progress with the Chicago Tribune currently writing on us. Sustained media attention not only raises the issue of compliance in a global way, it also gets people asking, "What are those people in that org down the street really up to?"

I would like to see us do some research. I would like to get affidavits from xscis stating that they didn't inform raw meat of the warnings, even in the watered down cult version, and did not obtain the requisite statement of understanding or contract. I would like us to collect and examine e-meter literature and gadget labels for compliance. I also find the history of the cult's compliance also interesting. At one time they used the strong label with notification of the Federal Court order of condemnation, which is perhaps what the cult submitted to the Court in 1971. It was only used briefly as far as my meager research shows, and was watered down by 1973, probably unilaterally. The most intriguing evidence is post by Free2Speak in 2004. He found the strong warning in a text pasted in a 1968 edition of History of Survival and then pasted over with a text dated 1973 with the weak warning.

tl;dr - I think this issue is worth pursuing on many fronts even with a low probability of government action. Awareness will be raised and lulz will be had.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Well, we shall persevere. I guess Jerry Staton's petition made it through, and is/was being heard. Two hundred petitions per year is far fewer than I would have expected. I think such a petition could be fairly brief. I suppose it would have to come from someone who is either already openly-named or has been name-fagged. I won't have time in the next couple of days, but maybe I'll try to write a draft, and put it up here for comments... Alternatively, someone who does have time could write a draft and put it here for comments. "Dear FDA, please enforce Judge Gesell's ruling. Look, these pictures of e-meters show no warnings," etc. etc. etc. It may be best not to overwhelm them with "cult cult cult cult." This may, however, be the place to briefly recapitulate the Scientology/FDA litigation of the 1960s, and to advance my thesis that "stress" = health condition and "test" = diagnosis. I'd be surprised if an "objective" official didn't feel that warranted a hearing... Jerry Staton got one...

1. Compliance with ruling
2. Diagnosis
Petitions
Making Your Voice Heard at FDA: How to Comment on Proposed Regulations and Submit Petitions


Another way to influence the way FDA does business is to petition the agency to issue, change or cancel a regulation, or to take other action. The agency receives about 200 petitions yearly.
Petitions require careful preparation by the submitter. FDA spends considerable time and staff resources processing petitions. Individuals sometimes submit petitions, but most come from regulated industry or consumer groups. For example, a drug company might request a change in labeling for one of its products; a food company might ask that its product be exempted from some provision of a regulation; or a consumer group might petition FDA to tighten regulation of a certain product.
Petitions submitted to FDA must contain:

• Action requested--What rule, order, or other administrative action does the petitioner want FDA to issue, amend or revoke?
• Statement of grounds--The factual and legal grounds for the petition, including all supporting material, as well as information known to the petitioner that may be unfavorable to the petitioner's position.
• Environmental impact--This information is generally required if the petition requests approval of food or color additives, drugs, biological products, animal drugs, or certain medical devices, or for a food to be categorized as GRAS (generally recognized as safe). Procedures for preparing environmental impact statements can be found in Title 21, Part 25 of the Code of Federal Regulations. If an environmental impact statement is not required, petitions should include a statement to that effect.
• The following official certification statement --"The undersigned certifies, that, to the best knowledge and belief of the undersigned, this petition includes all information and views on which the petition relies, and that it includes representative data and information known to the petition which are unfavorable to the petition."
• Identifying information-- The petition must be signed and include the petitioner's address and phone number.

In addition, some petitions may require information on:

• Economic impact--This information is required only if FDA requests it after review of the petition.

FDA currently does not accept e-mailed petitions. Petitions must be mailed or delivered to: Dockets Management Branch, Food and Drug Administration, Room 1061, 5630 Fishers Lane, Rockville, MD 20852.
Ultimately, FDA management decides whether to grant a petition. But first, agency staffers evaluate it, a process that may take several weeks to more than a year, depending on the issue's complexity. After FDA grants or denies the petition, the agency will notify the petitioner directly. If not satisfied, the petitioner can take the matter to court.
For more information on submitting petitions, and sample formats, consult Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Sections 10.30, 10.33, and 10.35.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Well /grumpy, when I see yer name on a string of web media articles, I'll announce it as a WIN as well. Any publicity for our side is a win, sorry you don't see it that way. Perhaps you should call your friend Rupert Murdoch and ask him to get off his ass and handle the situation eh?

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Y'all, there's no reason whatsoever to waste time with petitions IF...

We can get someone to initiate a class action lawsuit.

All we need is a very brave ex. They may not even have to pay their lawyer, as lawyers stand to make a lot of money off of these things (if I remember correctly). This would hit Scientology where it really hurts, and hit them HARD. They would have to pay lawyers to defend themselves, and good lawyers, assuming that the ex who was suing them could get someone high profile. It would get a ton of media attention, and I'm talking about the big hitters as opposed to alternative and indy press. And if the ex won, which I think they would, since Scientology so blatantly ignored the judge's order, they would probably be forced to pay out millions of dollars.

Money that would go to ex Scientologists everywhere.

And if the money was good enough, it might even encourage active Scientologists to try and collect, or to blow and then try to collect.

A class action lawsuit would be full of lulz and win. All we need to do is track down someone who is brave enough, and willing to devote the time.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

I'm starting to have fantasies about Dr. Lilly.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

hee hee, seems our beloved Dr. Lilly has hit a nerve with this. but oddly enough, the following scilon bawwwwling is only about the failwinds shoop!

Wax-Q's Stable Datum: The Sociopathic Intentions of "Anonymous"

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

If being a sociopath is wrong, I don't want to be right.

that Scilon blog has links to a lot of other Scilon sites that I had not seen before -- "Earth Organization" "Poets for Human Rights" etc.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Kendra Wiseman's mother runs Earth Organisation

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Yet more front organizations to add to The List. Did ya hear that $cientology, Anonymous and Enturbulation have lists too, only ours aren't of people so much as organizations. Following money of a herd of cats is a pointless and relatively meaningless exercise, but following that of $cientology and it's dummy corporations is like looking for the punchline for bad jokes.

"Citizens Commission for Human Rights" - don't you get the dark humor in that?

As I said, another win for Anonymous, because every time a new thread is born no matter what it's about, there's always a new $cientological Easter Egg out there waiting to be found, laugh about, feel outraged about, and then exercise our new hobby over.

We've learned, $cientologists are phenomenal at making up corporate names that sound like noble things, or cutting edge stuff, or both. We've also learned that you folks start up companies like mortgage "fixers" who exploit trends and cost people thousands for "assistance" with their mortgage company that never happens.

We know you folks have startup ideas and companies on the cutting edge of whatever is new and exploitable, and we're dig, dig, digging... or hadn't you noticed?

So what's the scoop on the new front groups? Are the Poets in charge of a contest that glorifies fearless leader like that science fiction new author competition? Why is it they tend to go after the creative people; are all creative folks that thick?

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Aww and I only have access to westlaw. I'm Jealous!

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

To bad the information about asbestos was not on that image. They Would not have bawwwled about it then.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

That blog post is so silly and "over-the-top." I think it might be fun to funnel thousands of people to it in an argumentum ad risum. Give it a lot of attention, but the opposite kind than the Scilons had intended. Maybe I'll make a Digg for it.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

This is a good one. The E-meter is not just used to sucker rubes at malls but in auditing sessions. Get it and you upset a lot of schemes. This should also tie in with practicing medicine without a licence, which has got them into trouble once or twice in France and perhaps elsewhere, though being above the law they just carry on.

Is it possible to give a brief summary of the judge's reasons and what should be in the warning?

Did everyone see the video which showed how the needle swings one way if you squeeze harder and back again if you relax just a tad? And for this Kato Ballo died.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Been following the thread for awhile, and want to offer questions/comments:

1. This is a US Federal Order. Most of the E-meters made in US, or elsewhere? Might get the FDA to check the source of manufacturing if in US (that SHOULD be where the stickers get put on). The local org might say "We got them that way, and not told about stickers." Same with the printing of the books.

2. If the E-meters are imported, then the customs people might be interested in the placement of stickers (things coming into the country must abide by existing rules, right?)

3. To the ROW (Rest Of World) Anons, get a copy of the court order and hit your local country's version of the FDA. The orgs in the other countries would not have to abide by US Federal Court rules (IMHO), but other countries might be interested in the US ruling.

Since we are in this for the lulz, perhaps someone could mock-up a game system: Make an attachment, and create the new "WiiMeter". Just as accurate. Be sure to put the full court-ordered sticker on it.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

That's Kaja Bordevich Ballo, and she was taking a written personality test, not auditing on an e-meter. But if the warning labels had been there on the meters, books and the stress test, to the effect that this FDA warning said, or even better the possible future labeling of "for entertainment purposes only", she might not have taken it so seriously. Of course this was France, so it's a different jurisdiction. Labels doesn't change the situation that the scilon who hooks her is trying as hard as possible to "find her ruin" and break her down, though.

You know what would be funny? Anonymous showing up with US Marshals to stick labels on all their books and emeters.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Yes, Auchraw, attached to the Indymedia article (looks like an image file , but it's not) is a PDF with the full text of the judge's ruling. The most relevant bits (for our immediate purpose) begin on page 7.

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Obi-wan, I like this idea re: Imports. I know that e-meters WERE in 1998 being assembled at Gold Base (pic is from Touretzky's page). A few months ago, however, a few of us here were looking at a ruling by the US Customs authorities. The Scilons were trying to avoid paying import duty tax on their e-meters, which were being shipped in from Taiwan ("We're a religion&quot. The person making the ruling (an administrative, not judicial decision, I believe) decided against the Scilons with rather sharp or at least annoyed language. She analyzed legal precedent very nicely, looking at religious imports like special incense and buddhist statues. I think she concluded that the e-meter was just a gadget. [STRIKE]I can't look for the document now, but perhaps 10 hours hence i'll try to find this again. [/STRIKE]

Ah! I found the thread! and now I must run along for the day.
http://forums.whyweprotest.net/7-general-discussion/e-meters-imported-taiwan-subject-tariff-13715/

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

STOP
WINNING
SO
HARD
AND SO OFTEN!!!!!!

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

hee hee!

hey, following this "importing" tangent a bit, would anyone care to "drop a dime" on the Scilons by telephoning the US Office of Immigration and Customs, Enforcement, Special Agent for Investigations? They prefer telephone calls. I am at work or I would do it.
http://www.ice.gov/about/investigations/contact.htm

Re: Lily von Marcab WINZ Again: Cult in Gross and Willful Violation of Federal Order

Anybody within the cult have any idea how much the E-meter costs the cult to make? Read through the posts, and didn't see a "initial cost".

We know how much the "ministers" pay for the meter (it's on the price list). It seems to me that they should be able to get it "at cost". Any markup would be considered a profit.

Customs asks the "value" of imported goods. If they sell it to their "ministers" for more than the stated value to given to customs, that may also cause a problem.

When a minister purchases an E-Meter, is it also a "donation"? How then, do they justify the "value" of the thing? Do people who buy the meter for "self-audit" become ministers? How else could they, under the law, have one?

BTW, are churches exempt from sales taxes? That's a STATE law, not the IRS. They may be exempt for the things the members buy, but the general public purchases may not be.

Do scientologists give out receipts for the books they "sell" at the tables? Even if it's a donation, should still get a receipt, right? And the receipt should state "donation" somewhere, too.