Scientology: A to Xenu, book by Chris Shelton on Amazon

Discussion in 'Media' started by The Wrong Guy, Dec 25, 2015.

  1. Fair point, but not something that was the case in 1993 so not something that could have convinced the Feds to enter into such an arrangement.
  2. The Internet Member

    Farrakhan was making friends with Scientology and the Moonies way back, like maybe the late 1980s if memory serves. I could hunt up dox but it might take awhile because I looked into this a long time ago.

    Yeltsin, that was the era of the tax deal I think. Check out how far Scientology had infiltrated into Russian military, politics, and industry at that time:
    If the CIA were not communicating with Scientology during this era of Russian infiltration, then the CIA were not doing their job.
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  3. Why does every topic including Gerry Armstrong involve wall-o-text posts? Caroline, please understand that good debate and argumentation skills involve keeping it simple, even when there is a lot of historical primary evidence at hand. I really want to read all of this but it just looks exhausting.
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  4. The Internet Member

    Seems pretty clear to me because the Gerry Armstrong quote was short. In that quote Gerry was saying Scientology got a special deal with the IRS because Scientology was serving as an intelligence asset.

    Like I said before, seems a fair guess but not a fact.
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  5. Incredulicide Member

    Chris Shelton will be doing an AMA (Ask Me Anything) in /r/Scientology on Reddit next Monday, at 8 PM EST. Why not ask him then?
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  6. Sometimes, as in this thread, importing text or images seems more feasible than posting links, and is done to minimize red herrings and a host of other logical fallacies in discussions, debates and arguments. Once the evidence is agreed upon, authenticated, etc., there might be something to debate, discuss or argue about. And there might not be. Absent the relevant material, it is easy to get into misunderstandings. Some people of course employ red herrings and other logical fallacies to derail meaningful discussions.

    I have been trying to identify the relevant documents using links, but that wasn't good enough in every case. For example, it was necessary to post Gerry's email to Mr. Shelton, even though earlier in the thread, I had posted a link to the page on which Gerry's email was webbed.

    Btw, the SPs 'r' Us thread I posted earlier would probably have gone differently if the contributors had identified the exact claims, issues, etc. they were discussing. After some thought, I decided to post it here to give readers the opportunity to read Mr. Shelton's relevant language in context. I wouldn't know how to find or link to that FB discussion, which took place in June 2014.

    Scientology cases often fall into the "complex litigation" category, and this bears out in the Scientology v. Armstrong litigations and in the broader conflict. We can't help that the Scientologists put their devils in the details. Oversimplifying some of these issues often leads to misunderstandings and other problems for people who really do want to understand.

    I appreciate your interest and willingness to read the thread. If you would please identify the specific post(s) that were too "wall-o-texty," or not simple enough, I'll see if I can do better.

    In the meantime, Mr. Shelton's 345 wall-o-text pages beckons and begs for criticism ... ;-)
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  7. Thanks for the explanation, Caroline. I'm just extremely limited on time but get frustrated when I want to read a lengthy thread on this topic.
  8. The Internet Member

    For my part, I don't think you need to apologize for some of the tl;dr. There's a lot of emotion here due to history and stuff so communication on the Internet will be messy. Because humans.

    When I have gone through something life changing and filled with wtf, I find myself either silent or prone to everythingism. Everythingism is the belief that you need a fuck ton of context before you can make a point.

    If you find yourself thinking about the basis of language, human understanding, science, or the Big Bang, you might be suffering from everythingism. Give voice to such basic principles en route to your Major Point which is right up ahead fer sure, and suddenly you might find that you are the only person in the room.

    If we want dox for the claim that Scientology is serving as a US intelligence asset, we really do not need to know a whole bunch of stuff about Marty, the IRS deal, fair game, etc. Either dox are available or not.

    When there are no dox, people are entitled to their personal opinions. But when you become a public speaker with a book for sale, you have to be cautious about implying an opinion is a fact. Generally you need to err on the side of rejecting unsupported claims. Cuz if you do not then educated people will dismiss you as an Alex Jones moonbat.
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  9. Yes we should be guessing, because he was clear, and he did identify the content, with quotes, from the original FB post by Jane White.

  10. Ugh my brain hurts.

    If Gerry was misquoted, mis-translated or misunderstood, why doesn't he simply say so in either of his lengthy diatribes?

    If Gerry does in fact believe that the US govt is cooperating with Scientology to get "intelligence" on Scientologists (as is quoted on Gerry's own web site here: and was copied verbatim in Jane White's OP) then THAT is what Chris Shelton calls a "bizarre idea" and he is not alone in thinking so.

    Here's the quote again in case anyone still doesn't know what Chris Shelton is talking about.
  11. Thank you, ornery. Gerry asked Mr. Shelton about the post you highlighted, along with other posts Mr. Shelton had made in that thread. Mr. Shelton did not answer Gerry's questions, did not clarify, and stopped communicating. (Ref. )

    Jane White undoubtedly took her text from this page: This is an English translation of a Russian article concerning a talk Gerry gave in Moscow in 2011. The talk was in English and translated orally and consecutively into Russian, which the writer used for his article.

    Unfortunately, Jane White did not cite to the source, or provide a link. And no one asked her for it.

    Additionally, Jane White incorrectly copy/pastaed some image information along with the article text. I.e., this text: "Gerry Armstrong 2011-05-18-14" is an image title, not an attribution of article content. The copy/pasta error may have added to Mr. Shelton's conclusion, confusion, etc., but he could easily have cleared this up with a link, or if he had answered Gerry's e-mail questions about it.

    I searched Gerry's site further and located a translation and audio recording of Gerry's talk that day. :) From that page:

  12. The Internet Member

    That transcription of the talk Gerry gave makes it clear that Gerry is sharing his personal opinion when he says the US made Scientology its ally --i.e., he says, "I believe."
    The US has defended Scientology, fer sure, on the basis of everyone's right to religious freedom. I am not sure it is fair to say that the US has promoted Scientology.
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  13. When there are opinions, there is always room for different opinions.

    But when you mix in the sort of inflammatory language seen in the exchanges between Gerry and Chris - eg labelling one's opponent an enemy, or labelling another's views as "spewing" such-and-such, it shouldn't come as a surprise that communication breaks down.

    Good arguments don't require inflammatory language - quite the opposite, in truth.
  14. AnonLover Member

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  15. The Wrong Guy Member

    Everyone should read this. As examples, here are three of the questions, and his answers:

    What made you decide to finally leave? Was there a final straw?

    Realizing that my day-to-day life consisted of telling more lies than telling truth in order to convince people to be part of Scientology, come back to it or pay money into it.

    If I won the Powerball and decided to use all the money to try and bring down the church, what would be the best strategy in your opinion?

    Somehow get their US tax exemption revoked. That being done, somehow get the religious recognition they have obtained in the courts rescinded so they are considered a business enterprise rather than a religious movement. Scientology would be dust within less than a year if those two things happened.

    My friend is in Scientology. She's very against even reading anything that critiques the church, or puts it in a negative light. I worry for her and her toddler. What if anything would you suggest I can do other than link her evidence of its corruption?

    The most important thing for you to do is be a very good and loyal friend to her, be a safe place that she knows she can always go to for help or assistance. Never judge or be intolerant or tell her how screwed up Scientology is. Don't try to send her links telling her how bad it is or try to convince her that way. None of that is going to work.

    Educate yourself on destructive cults. Watch my interview with Rachel Bernstein. Listen to my most recent podcast with Joe Szimhart. Find out what these groups are all about by reading books by cult recovery experts who have actually done interventions and gotten people out. Then you'll have a very good idea of how to subtly and correctly talk to a Scientologist in such a way as to start undoing the mind control and undue influence they are experiencing.
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  16. anon8109 Member

    Of the 317 posts, only two of them sounded like they could come from OSA.

    One was praising scientology's narconon, the other was accusing Chris of being a critic just to make money.

    Surprisingly feeble. Had this reddit been posted just 5 years ago OSA would have been all over it with accusations of bigotry and "I am not a scientologist but..." remarks.

    Chris states a few times that he has not yet suffered much scientology "fair game". Given his extensive public speaking and his writing this is even more surprising. It sounds like he never even got a threatening letter from a cult lawyer trying to stop his book.

    Another sign that the cult continues to decline.
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  17. amaX Member

    So what if Chris Shelton believes Rinderburn 1's account of the IRS caving to the cult? A lot of people believe it. I don't. But I see no reason to attack anyone who believes that account especially someone like Chris who doesn't just blithely take everything the Rinderburns say as the gospel.

    I have met Chris Shelton in person. I picked him up from the airport when he came for the Flag Down conference. We had a brilliant conversation coming across the causeway from Tampa. He is one of the most introspective people I've ever met. He is truly where he says he is in his development as an ex-Scientologist. He can explain to you what he believes and what lead him to those beliefs. We did disagree on some things during our conversation, but I am also a person who will tell you why I think a certain way. Chris appreciated that. We agreed to disagree and both of us realize that time will tell which of us is right.

    I also appreciate that he doesn't sugar-coat his actions while he was in the cult. Many exes do that.

    I am not sure why Gerry Armstrong is so determined to undermine everything about Chris. Something about this doesn't feel right. I have always respected Gerry, but respect doesn't give someone carte blanche to do whatever they want with no repercussions.
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  18. konrad2 Member

    It's Colombia, a country in the upper North West of South America not Columbia the district where Washington, the capital of the US is situated. Otherwise your remark makes sense.
    Concerning 2. The US has been intentionally aiding the spread of Scientology. It is obvious that the US State Department has followed Scientology's wishes by a) Putting pressure on France and Germany because their anti-cult policies.
    b) Facilitating the obtention of visas for people entering the US for "religious" reasons e.g. Sea Org personnel.
  19. The Internet Member

    Thanks for straightening me out with Colombia. So embarrassing.

    Post WWII Christian missionaries had troubles within communist or Islamic states and would ask the US State Dept to advocate for them on the basis of freedom of religion. So Scientology did the same thing. I don't see this as "intentionally aiding the spread of Scientology," more as intentionally spreading the notion that governments should not dictate what people ought to worship.
  20. konrad2 Member

    I'm sorry for being pedantic on these things. The mistake on Colombia is easily understandable, it comes from the sources of the word: Cristoforo Colombo Italian name for Columbus and "Columbus" Latin version of the name adopted in Anglo-Saxon countries. There are a few places named Columbia after Columbus name, one is the District of Columbia (DC) and I think there is a major city down in North Carolina. By the way I think the French government took on Scientology because of the excessive prices and the pressure to extort money from people, not because of the beliefs. That is why the ECHR didn't challenge the French sentence for fraud which is now definitive. Thank you for your posts, I appreciate them.
  21. The Internet Member

    Don't be sorry. Conversation has slowed these days so we have time for style points.

    I remain indebted to JohnnyRUClear for fixing my versus-verses problem. Took a while to fix that one.
  22. anon8109 Member

    Chris @ 12:36

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  23. The Wrong Guy Member

  24. konrad2 Member

    I think OSA is understaffed with very few trained people and they cannot let anybody go out in the Internet and die from pneumonia because there was a reference to the wall of fire. Every time I would try to recruit someone to work for OSA or just give a hand it was hard, because my boss would filter the plausible helpers and there was often a requirement or a qualification they didn't meet. An Internet troll has to be a very well brainwashed troll or if you prefer a very well indoctrinated Scientologist, knowing PR references, intelligence references, being preferably already OT III, I've seen some comments on ESMB which came obviously from trolls, but I think there is so much going on and so many people making nasty comments or simply making fun of Scientology, L Ron and Captain Black Heart that It would be impossible to cope with this avalanche without an unprecedented expansion that does not exist. I met some very intelligent and very well educated people in OSA, I remember a French guy at Saint Hill who was brilliant. I've seen them do some remarkable feats specially diverting attention, getting people off track and even making them change their minds, but I haven't seen any of this at the Bunker, at Rinder's blog or Shelton's. with all the accessible info, all the books, and since Going Clear. they just cannot cope, there is not anything intelligent, witty, crafty, subtle or efficient going on. They put their heads into the sand, repeat Miscavige and Pow's words about expansion and hundreds of churches and it is just laughable.
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  25. konrad2 Member

    Shelton is great. He is doing such a good job. I like very much the way he answers the questions in his Q&A. It's always a pleasure to watch his videos.
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  26. Here in the US there are silly stunts still being done in spurts that do no real harm that nobody talks about because why give the cult something to claim points for? And why help bolster the fear factor they previously had to intimidate people with before they became the butt of every joke? Too many freshly out second or third generation former members read the nutty OG sites freaking out about fair game and they live in fear for awhile thinking some army of evil OSA OSA OSA bots will hunt them down and destroy their lives just for leaving the fold quietly. Even Chris got hit with the question "will OSA hunt me down" on his AMA from someone who spent a brief period in the SO.

    MR2 had said at one point that there was crazy stuff moonbat critics had claimed OSA did that never happened, but they counted it as a win anyway because it instilled feared and caused drama. This is why the lame, stupid stunts like silly phone calls to family members or knocks on the door by clueless PIs who don't even know they work for scientology isn't discussed openly. This nonsense is easily foiled and stopped. So no need to make a BFD about it online where scifags can twist it and get off on the fact they got to you.
  27. anon8109 Member

    The counter-argument is that by keeping it secret the victims are protecting the bully. Exposing the scientology corporation's "fair game" tactics allows victims to share information about how to circumvent the bullying, or at least what to expect. It also continues to expose the company's lie that it is a benevolent entity interested in only helping people.
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  28. Problem is, what occasionally happens is so lame and toothless it doesn't even live up the cult's definition of Fair Game. It barely rates as a stupid prank. No harm, no foul, no lulz.The C&D letters in the early days of Chanology showed more thought and resource investment. Meh, nothing to see here. Moving on. Seriously. It is that dumb.
  29. The Wrong Guy Member

    Scientology: A to Xenu - The Book Trailer You've Been Waiting For

    Uploaded by Chris Shelton on December 30, 2015

    My new book, Scientology: A to Xenu, has now been published. Here I lay out some of what's in it and why this is the must-have book for anyone who wants to know what Scientology is really all about.

    The Scientology Experience 2, Part 1: Getting Sucked In

    Uploaded by Chris Shelton on January 7, 2016

    In order to provide more points of view and experience on my channel, I'm interviewing people involved in Scientology and other destructive cults and getting their stories. This is Part 1 of Tim DeWall's story, a former Scientologist and staff member from Tampa's Church of Scientology.

    The Scientology Experience 2, Part 2: Joining Staff

    Uploaded by Chris Shelton on January 14, 2016

    This is Part 2 of Tim DeWall's story, a former Scientologist and staff member from Tampa's Church of Scientology.

    The Scientology Experience 2, Part 3: Staff Hell

    Uploaded by Chris Shelton on January 21, 2016

    This is Part 3 of Tim DeWall's story, a former Scientologist and staff member from Tampa's Church of Scientology.
  30. The Wrong Guy Member

    The Scientology Experience: Tim DeWall, Part 4

    Uploaded by Chris Shelton on January 28, 2016

    This is Part 4 of Tim DeWall's story, a former Scientologist and staff member from Tampa's Church of Scientology and in this episode we talk about his experiences after leaving staff and being a Scientology public in Clearwater.
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  31. The Wrong Guy Member

    The Scientology Experience: Tim DeWall, Part 5

    Uploaded by Chris Shelton on February 4, 2016

    This is Part 5 of Tim DeWall's story, a former Scientologist and staff member from Tampa's Church of Scientology. In this episode, his wife Sylvia joins us and we talk about how they got out of Scientology.
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  32. anon8109 Member

    High-Level Scientologist Tells All
    David Pakman Show

    Published on Feb 4, 2016
    --Chris Shelton, former high-level Scientologist, and author of the recent book Scientology: A to Xenu - An Insider's Guide to What Scientology is Really All About, joins David to discuss his time as a high level Scientologist, getting out of the Sea Org, and being labeled a "suppressive person"
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  33. The Wrong Guy Member

    Rachel Bernstein: How to Talk to Scientologists (Part 1)

    Uploaded by Chris Shelton on February 18, 2016

    How do you talk to a friend, family member or loved one when they have become part of a destructive cult like Scientology? What do you say? What do you not say? How do you get them to think critically about something that they have no desire or willingness to question?

    In this conversation with cult therapist Rachel Bernstein, we discuss these topics in detail and break down what works and what doesn't work. In Part 1, we cover the basics of what makes a destructive group and some basic do's and don'ts in broaching the subject in the first place.
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  34. The Wrong Guy Member

  35. anonysamvines Member

    Late to the party and unable to do the chop down and highlight relevant section of the sp cafe screenshot

    21st response
    Jane is talking about Ursula's account of US Embassy interfering with German efforts to stop Co$ in the 90's. This is separate to Gerry.

    Anyone have any info on that?
    Who is Ursula? Where I can find that account of what happened
  36. anon8109 Member

  37. AnonLover Member

  38. anonysamvines Member

  39. anonysamvines Member

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