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Re: List of fallacious statements...

Discussion in 'Think Tank' started by deadacc19225, Feb 22, 2008.

  1. deadacc19225 Member

    Re: List of fallacious statements...

    A friend and I were shooting the shit over beers the other night and came up with a few.../shrug

    Maybe we can call it...
    Scientology, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Logical Fallacy

    (Fallacies from http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)
    Fallacy 1. Ad Hominem[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "What are your crimes? Why are you doing this? Don't you have something better to do?" etc... [Love, Love, and what's better than love?]
    Fallacy 2.
    Ad Hominem Tu Quoque[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Anonymous used to bully people into silence online, but now they're telling US to shape up?" [Eh, takes one to know one?]
    Fallacy 3.
    Appeal to Authority[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Scientology says [words about X], therefore [X] is true." [Plato wanted women to wrestle naked in oil at public sporting events. For aesthetic purposes, of course.]
    "[Narconon/Criminon] reports major successes..." [And why would they lie?]
    "The IRS recognizes CofS as a religion, therefore it's a religion." [Nice of them to stand up to the Supreme Court for you guys...]
    Fallacy 4.
    Appeal to Belief[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Many scientologists say scientology works for them, hence scientology works." [Promiscuity works for me until a condom breaks. Hence...say, what are you doing tonight?]
    "Scientology means "the study of truth" in Latin. Why are you so opposed to that?" [Taliban. Next?] [Tom Socrates notes that this particular case (verbal definition overriding physical observations) is specifically known as the
    Etymological Fallacy[/url:1ukj7f4y].
    Fallacy 5.
    Appeal to Common Practice[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Many religions have goofy beliefs, hence Scientology's beliefs are OK." [So, if a religion declares open season on the unfaithful, that's cool too.]
    "Many religions collect donations, hence Scientology can do so." [Exorbitant cover upfront versus passing a plate after the sermon. Sure.]
    "The Amish practice 'Shunning' which is no different than Scientology's practice of 'Disconnection.'"And the People's Temple held a mass suicide...does that make it ok for Heaven's Gate members? -XenuChan
    Fallacy 6.
    Appeal to Consequences of a Belief[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Learning Scientology is the only way to understand scientology." [So, we have to jump off a building to know it's going to hurt in the end?]
    "The government entertaining complaints about the CofS just rolls out the red carpet to religious bigotry." [Cool! My religion requires that I steal everything I want to have, and it doesn't include a vow of poverty. I'm with you, comrade! Down with the private-property fascists!]
    Fallacy 7.
    Appeal to Emotion[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Nothing else can compare to the rush you get when you [pass a test/go clear]!" [Except maybe getting those Tier 5 arena boots you've been grinding for...]
    "I personally like scientology; it works for me, therefore it's ok." [I personally like anarchism. It works for me, therefore it's ok.]
    Fallacy 8.
    Appeal to Fear[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Live according to Scientological principles or be punished." [Or, leave scientology and...]
    "Stop criticizing Scientology, or you will be sued/harassed." [Stop enslaving children and beating up your church elders, or we're not going anywhere.]
    Fallacy 9.
    Appeal to Flattery[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Congratulations on reaching OT X! You are a wonderful person, truly a cut above! Now, you'd better get started on OT X+1..." [Good job getting level 70! Now, about that crappy blue armor you're wearing...]
    "Surely nobody [open minded/tolerant/respectful of free speech] could fall into this CofS-bashing frenzy..." [Really, they're the first ones in line...]
    Fallacy 10.
    Appeal to Novelty[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "'Tech' treats all human ills." [Yup, Hubbard cracked it in the 1950's. Except, of course, you need the Ultra VIII-Premium for today's problems.]
    [Inversely] "Psychiatry simply opposes "Tech" because it's the next big thing that could replace it." [That, and because it's bullshit.]
    "All new religions get criticized unfairly, regardless of their quality." [Some react better, of course.]
    Fallacy 11.
    Appeal to Pity[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "All small religions get unfair criticism, regardless of their quality." [Some really small ones hire huge law teams, deploy private investigators, and run bunches of subsidiary commercial organizations to keep their doors open, apparently.]
    Fallacy 12.
    Appeal to Popularity[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Scientology is accepted by the U.S. and [elsewhere] as a religion, therefore it's a religion." [Religious status != freedom to commit crime.]
    "Scientology works because [membership stats] show it's [growing/already large]." [If it's legitimate and growing, what imaginiable damage can increased attention do?]
    Fallacy 13.
    Appeal to Ridicule[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "You think Scientology is a cult? Bullshit." [You think there will be cake? Bullshit.]
    "Scientology protesters are [aliens/psychiatrists/Germans/queers/criminals] and are here to delude humanity." [You are [short/smelly/French/impotent/douchebags] and are here to provide me with lulz.
    Fallacy 14.
    Appeal to Spite[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Remember when Anonymous [was mean to someone]?" [We do not forget. Neither should you.]
    Fallacy 15.
    Appeal to Tradition[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Scientology has survived 50+ years of persecution on all fronts -- it must be valid." [Rome didn't fall in a day.]
    Fallacy 16.
    Bandwagon[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "[Foo] is 'out-tech.' We don't do that; no real scientologist would." [Funny, LRH didn't specifically tell you to use the Internet or tooth whitening strips, did he?]
    "[Celebrity] is a Scientologist...shouldn't you be?" [[Celebrity] has bulimia...shouldn't you?]
    Fallacy 17.
    Begging the question[/url:1ukj7f4y] (Circular reasoning)
    "[TRs/audits] work. If they don't work, it's because you're doing them wrong and need to try them again." [But what if they don't work?]
    "If you disagree with scientology dogma, you are [out ethics/wrong/uninformed] by the standards set forth in scientology dogma. Read more Hubbard." [ A) No, actually, I'm right. B) If I'm wrong, see A). ]
    Special case:
    No True Scotsman[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Of course the tech works! You're probably just doing it wrong." -Tom Socrates
    [deadacc says, "The No True Scotsman flaw applies alarmingly well on Hubbard Tech in general (I.E. Tech only works when used by members), given that members at the very start of the "bridge" are asked to run E-Meter tests on passers-by and on disaster victims who, presumably, are not Scientologists].
    Fallacy 18.
    Biased sample[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "[This comment is no longer available due to a copyright claim by the Church of Scientology International]" [What were we arguing about, again?]
    "Ex-scilons obviously have an axe to grind." [This is Scilon abuse of the fallacy. Retort: if current members aren't allowed to say anything substantive about the church, its structure, or its beliefs, who is the public supposed to believe?]
    "Narconon has an amazing [60-85%] success rate!" [Of the small fraction of those who actually finished their 12 weeks, and among the dozen Narconon bothered to contact four years later...]
    Fallacy 19.
    Burden of Proof[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "High OTs have special powers. Prove that they don't!" [Hey, look, it's Xenu! I know, you just looked to prove a point.]
    "[Tech/TRs/auditing] work when properly used. Can you show that they didn't help the [firefighters/criminals/narcotics users/mentally disabled]?" [Show that they worked, and include documentation that meets first-world academic standards.]
    "Don't call Scientology a cult. It's a religion." [And my name is Hulk Hogan. Not that I've given you a reason to believe it.]
    Fallacy 20.
    Circumstantial Ad Hominem[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "[Anonymous/critic] is really a [front group/advocate] for the [psychiatrists/aliens/Nazis/militant atheists] who are trying to take over the world." [If you are putting children into hard labor, threatening critics, and abusing your members, what does it matter if I'm a three-headed Klingon from Uranus?]
    "Germany hates CofS because it's run by [psychiatrists/Nazis/aliens]." [Hey, read the history; it's probably those Austrians you need to worry about.]
    Special case:
    Appeal to Motive[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "You're just trying to [suppress me/enturbulate/promote the psych conspiracy/diminish my freedom]. Why should I listen to you?" -Tom Socrates
    Fallacy 21.
    Composition[/url:1ukj7f4y](Fallacy of)
    "Anonymous is obviously just a bunch of [punks/hackers]. That's all they [the Chanologists] were to begin with." [Obviously, Scientology is a sci-fi expo. How many episodes of Star Trek were there, anyway?]
    "[Psychiatry/meds] didn't stop [an hero] from running amok and shooting a bunch of people. Therefore, [psychiatry/meds] are evil and should be eliminated." [All of Scientology's screw-ups, of course, are to be blamed on the auditor in charge of the case. DA: the average scilon is very likely to turn this around and try to use it to explain CoS's own failings [i.e. Lisa McPherson]. The response here might be Fallacy 19, burden of proof, or a general call for statistically significant evidence on people whose diagnosed severe psychological illnesses have been reversed by scientology, to be followed by Fallacy 18, or possibly by Fallacies 3 or 4.]
    Fallacy 22.
    Confusing Cause and Effect[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "The E-meter is never wrong. It sees all, knows all." -L. Ron Hubbard [Shop around; Ouija boards have the same power, cost less, and are more fun at parties.]
    "Successful people have joined Scientology. Wouldn't you like to be successful?" [Yup, where would Tom Cruise be without Scientology?]
    Fallacy 23.
    Division[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "The CofS's main goals are all about helping and enabling people; Scientology is good for humankind." [Jihad isn't one of Islam's five pillars, but it sure gets a lot of play, doesn't it?]
    "Scientology is here for you." [Said a mouthful, you did.]
    Fallacy 24.
    False Dilemma[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "You can't oppose Scientology. Either you support [freedom of speech/religious freedom/civil rights] and our right to be left alone, or you're a bigoted fascist." [Redundancy is, unfortunately, NOT a logical fallacy. Say, what if there was a peaceful way to remove corrupt upper elements from a fundamentally sound organization? You know, amendment, impeachment, referendum...].
    Fallacy 25.
    Gambler's Fallacy[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "[Anonymous/Chanology] is just a flash in the pan. After all, most internet groups come and go quickly." [That's what you said about a.r.s, right?]
    Fallacy 26.
    Genetic Fallacy[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Psychiatrists oppose CofS tech. However, Psychiatry has its roots in [Nazi Germany/aliens]." Or, "Don't be glib. You don't know the history of psychiatry. I do." [Scientology has its roots in the vision of a drunk racist. Don't be glib. You don't know the history of Scientology. I do.]
    "Anonymous members read 'Mein Kampf,' therefore the group is full of fascists." [Hey, wasn't reading "Dianetics" supposed to make me a Scientologist, too? I see what the game is.]
    Fallacy 27.
    Guilt by Association[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Anonymous contains nasty hackers. Ignore them." [Pot, meet a kitchenful of kettles.]
    Fallacy 28.
    Hasty Generalization[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "The current anti-Scientology movement is all cyber-terrorists. The DDoS attacks should have proven that. Send the watchdogs after them!" [So, you're saying Scientology should have been closed outright when a few members were found in possession of pilfered federal documents?]
    "You can't trust anything you read on the Internet. There's all sorts of things out there..." [So, when your copyright lawyers come knocking, all I have to do is upload the contents of my hard drive somewhere and it's all hearsay?]
    Fallacy 29.
    Ignoring a Common Cause[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Some governments don't like us. The protesters are on the door. It's a conspiracy!" [Or, how about this...maybe there's a REASON that both regime and grassroots folks are picking on Scientology specifically out of the herd of goofy religions out there?]
    Fallacy 30.
    Middle ground[/url:1ukj7f4y] (Fallacy of the)
    "You say we're wrong; we say we're right. Why can't we just agree to disagree and leave it at that?" [OK. I want all your money; you don't want me to have any of it. Let's split the difference so everyone can be happy, mmm-kay?]
    "Even granting all the wrongs, there are worse organizations than Scientology out there." [So, we'll let the drunk driver who ran over someone get off because there are, after all, mass murderers out there.]
    Fallacy 31.
    Misleading Vividness[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Scientology works; just look at Bob over there, healthy and prosperous!" [Scientology fails; just look at LRH, dead.]
    Fallacy 32.
    Personal Attack[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Tax-exempt status? I think a more important question is, what are your crimes? You bigot. You fascist! Stopped beating your wife yet? Still sleeping around? Why are you hiding behind that camera? Et cetera, et cetera..." [I care about you. Come back to the light.]
    "You'll never understand until you read [Dianetics/internal document] and go through auditing." [You'll never understand until you write a 20-page paper on the relevance of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to international NGOs.]
    "You get your info off the Internet? Anyone can put anything on the Internet, and if you're just quoting things off the Internet, I don't have to respond." [You quote {Hubbard/Scilon}? {He/they} can say anything, and if you're just quoting them, I don't have to respond.]
    Fallacy 33.
    Poisoning the Well[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Anonymous are [bigots/fascists/alien Nazi spies/hackers/liars/atheists], therefore nothing they say can be trusted." [Hubbard was a drunk and a racist, ergo there's nothing good in all of Scientology.]
    "[As a scientologist,] you know you're the ONLY one who can help..." [We're doomed.]
    Fallacy 34.
    Post Hoc[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "L. Ron Hubbard predicted that Scientology would be oppressed un many fronts. Well, here you all are, PROVING he was right!" [Next up, taking bets on whether bears shit in forests.]
    "I have been [healthy/happy/successful] since I reached OT [X], therefore Scientology works!" [I'm not bankrupt, therefore I had an excellent elementary education.]
    Fallacy 35.
    Questionable Cause[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Being in Scientology just gives you a certain something that's like, wow. What a rush! It's like you're in possession of infinite knowledge!" [LSD and steroids have been known to invite visions of grandeur, as well.]
    "Narconon works! The Purification Rundown gets all the toxic residue out and sets you free!" [Surely the anecdotal successes couldn't have had anything to do with forced cold-turkey cooldown or teaching denial/self-hypnosis techniques?]
    Fallacy 36.
    Red Herring[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "What Are Your Crimes?" [Crimes? Man, did you see that line call in the game last week? Man, now THAT was criminal.]
    "Elli Perkins? I knew her, she was a nice woman. Yup. Knew her kid too. Lemme tell you a story about Elli..." [Tell us a story about why she's dead, while you're at it.]
    Fallacy 37.
    Relativist Fallacy[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Am I brainwashed? I don't think so." [FLUNK! Eye movement. Start.]
    "You may think Scientology is out to bankrupt its members; I think that the auditing and course fees are a reasonable price to pay." [Maybe where you come from, slave labor is a fair trade for enlightenment if you're short on cash.]
    Fallacy 38.
    Slippery Slope[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "If the world doesn't come to rescue Scientology from the Nazi cyber-bigots, we're just begging for fascist rule." [So apparently well-functioning rule of law means letting organizations sue and badger their critics into oblivion.]
    "With scientology's track record, it is surely the solution to all Earth's ills." [I wonder what Hubbard had to say about the really thorny problems we're facing, such as managing the world's dwindling freshwater resources. Of course, given his answers for Africa and the Negro...]
    Fallacy 39.
    Special Pleading[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "We can't have anyone looking too closely at our documents, facilities, and records -- they contain privileged information about Scientology's internal belief structure. Every religion has secrets, right?" [Just how are Scientology's labor camps protected from all public scrutiny?]
    "Really, we prefer civil discourse and wish our opponents would come to the table and talk instead of protesting and trying to bring in the government." [So they can "confront" for three hours then follow the "smart ones" home?]
    Special Case:
    Double Standard[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "So what if Hubbard was out to make money. There's not harm in that." -Tom Socrates
    "Psychiatry is evil. It's all about money." -Tom Socrates
    Fallacy 40.
    Spotlight[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Scientology helped [the 9/11 firefighters/Katrina victims/the little kitties] when nobody else would." [So, what is Scientology doing in between all the big, sexy crises?]
    "You're just [punks/hackers/bullies]; the media says so!" [Most media write Scientology off as a stupid cult. But then, the media also says your food's likely to kill you.]
    Fallacy 41.
    Straw Man[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Protesting Scientology is fascism in action; you wouldn't want to live in a fascist dictatorship, would you?" [At least we wouldn't have to share it with crappy little litigious cults.]
    "Anonymous is evil; its conspiracy wants to eliminate every vestige of Scientology." [Actually, here's a secret: "Cheezburger" is code for "strike zone." Lolcats refer to marcab nuclear cryo-techs. They've placed subliminal messages deactivating thetan response into the captioned kitty images, which are circulating around the web AS WE SPEAK, bringing millions into the fold for electrochemical reconstitution.]
    Fallacy 42.
    Two Wrongs Make a Right[/url:1ukj7f4y]
    "Fair game is justified. We're fighting for the future here, and our opposition will stop at nothing to prevent us from succeeding." [Who ever threatened to stalk or dead agent a Scientologist? Oh wait, maybe if you think Miscavige ISN'T a ruthless toad, it makes more sense...]
    "Giving vitamin pills and isolation treatment to schizophrenics is better than what the pill-pushing psychiatrists would do to them." [Except, the psychiatric drugs sometimes work.]



    Edit: Linkification to definitions complete.
    Added the suggestedions, just for kicks.
  2. WMAnon Member

    Re: List of fallacious statements...

    <3 for the examples, but those of us not familiar with formal debate may want definitions, too.
  3. XenuChan Member

  4. Tom Socrates Member

  5. Re: List of fallacious statements...

    This...this is beautiful...

    :lrhcries:
  6. RandomTexfag Member

    Re: List of fallacious statements...

    Trolling 101

    We troll for truth.
  7. spiral Member

    Re: List of fallacious statements...

    this is really irritating me now. can someone please tell me what fallacy (or should that be fallacies) this guy's argument falls under? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM3f8huUQLw does it have a name? cos this sort of "oh you can't do anything about it so why bother/there's bigger fish" stuff pisses me off big time :twisted:
  8. Tom Socrates Member

    Re: List of fallacious statements...

    That would be a False Dilemma. Basically, what he's saying is you should either fry the biggest fish or do absolutely nothing.
  9. deadacc19225 Member

    Re: List of fallacious statements...

    Tom Socrates is absolutely right in calling this a false dilemma. I'd like to add that Doud2008 is throwing a big fat red herring at the discussion; he's bringing up an admittedly massive problem and saying that it should be humanity's only concern. He's basically saying this:

    Argument 1.
    A) Global economic inequality and inner-circle abuses in Scientology are both problems of oppression.
    B) Bigger problems always take priority over smaller problems.
    C) Global economic inequality is a larger problem than abuse in Scientology.
    D) Therefore, people should fight global economic inequality, not Scientology.
    • The primary failure of this argument is B. By this reasoning, anyone not working directly towards the goal of interplanetary colonization is wasting their time, since Earth is likely to eventually get smashed by a comet or fall into the sun. Mine's bigger than yours, sir! [/*:m:abwjxvrx]
    • Issues of expedience also come into play here. Scientology's abuses can be addressed here and now. Global economic inequality is a problem we're unlikely to see an answer to soon unless technology gives us a solution, just like freshwater management. In any case, ending Scientology's abusive behavior plays to the overall goal of global prosperity and would eventually have to be addressed in any comprehensive solution to inequity. [/*:m:abwjxvrx]

    He doesn't quite stop there.

    Argument 2. (These arguments run together a bit, but it doesn't matter in analysis)
    A) First world governmental forces have historically opposed evil organizations and doctrines.
    B) First world governmental forces have not changed human nature in so doing.
    C) Therefore, governmental efforts to fight evil organizations and doctrines are a futile waste of money.
    D) Therefore, Anonymous should not oppose Scientology.
    • B and C play Biased Sample. Two biggies Daud2008 leaves out: the first world deposed Hitler and ran the Soviet regime into the ground.[/*:m:abwjxvrx]
    • D is a pure non-sequitur. Anonymous isn't a state government, so comparisons to the actions of state governments are specious at best. Additionally, NGOs have accomplished a fair amount of good over the years.[/*:m:abwjxvrx]
    • Also on C, Anonymous isn't funded with tax revenues; more red herring.[/*:m:abwjxvrx]

    Argument 3.
    A) Human nature has not changed in 10,000 years.
    B) We shouldn't always act like we know what is right and wrong.
    C) Persecution, inequality, and violence are bad.
    D) [Stated before B)]We should become "less fundamentalist" and learn to live with each other.
    • All of this is more red herring. If Anonymous is not in the religious persecution or violence game, then this all amounts to a series of nice, but irrelevant, human rights platitudes. [/*:m:abwjxvrx]
    • Also, B and C contradict each other. If nobody can identify moral standards, what gives him the right to do so? [/*:m:abwjxvrx]

    The rest amounts to more unrelated suggestions, such as the development of cheaper renewable energy sources. Woo.

    This whole thing is also a special pleading (possibly brought on by ignorance of the Church's crimes). He states that oppression is bad and that we should learn to live together, yet he says that cleaning out a corrupted organization that's in the business of persecution, violence, and disconnection is a waste of time.

    For what it's worth, his position gets even nuttier in his fourth[/url:abwjxvrx] video. Enjoy hearing him suddenly claim that money is meaningless (after video three's four minute rant on global economic exploitation???), followed by what I THINK is a call for total demonetization (how this makes the poor any less poor is quite honestly beyond me), then saying scientologists can't have been defrauded, because money is worthless (obviously!).

    Lulzworthy, this train of thought is.
  10. Annie Omnes Member

    Re: List of fallacious statements...

    Seriouspost:

    I need to learn my fallacies! May I use your list of scieno examples on my flashcards?
  11. Tom Socrates Member

    Re: List of fallacious statements...

    Yyyes?

    I would encourage it, actually, but then, it's not my list....
  12. Anonymous22 Member

    Re: List of fallacious statements...

    I lol'd at the WoW references...
  13. deadacc19225 Member

    Re: List of fallacious statements...

    By all means, use anything to help yourself learn!

    However, as Tom said, "This isn't really my list." :oops:

    IMHO, you'd do well to include the general forms of the fallacies over at the Nizkor Project, the list I started from and linked to, for every card. So, for Appeal to Authority, you might do this:
    My list leans a bit to the "lulz" side; while I don't think you'd go terribly wrong looking up responses to scilon statements from here, it's also really important to understand what's going on "behind the scenes" and how to apply the logic directly to whatever is at hand.

    Best of luck in your studies!
  14. Anonawhat Member

  15. BugSauce Member

    Re: List of fallacious statements...

    I run into the 'false dilemma' fallacy mostly when talking to apathetic non-Scilons. I find this response generally gets them to stop and think, at least:

    Doctor, don't do that apendectomy, there's a patient over there with cancer!

    Ignoring solvable problems in favor of nebulous, vast, insoluble ones is a recipe for total inaction. It doesn't work when you're cleaning your room, and it doesn't work when you're changing the world. Find what you can do, and do it.

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