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Questions about Scientology?

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by Terril, Nov 21, 2010.

  1. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    I'm a supporter of "standard tech". I also think researching how to improve it
    is a good thing. Non of this really involves admin tech except where it involves
    PTS/SP tech which is both admin and tech.

    However, CO$ completely screws this area up and if you will " squirrels" it.

    Some years ago had a guy mail me, every now and again. His brother didn't
    like scientology, but they liked watching football on the telly at weekends
    and every time he did that he was made to retread a PTS course. Many similar
    stories around. The mandatory 6 months sec check for OT VII is completely
    squirrel nonsense just for income, and I have a very rare copy of the HCOB that
    indicates this which had 7 pages deleted from it.

    Much admin and ethics tech violates the creed and codes of a scientologist.
  2. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    Metapsychology and TIR are almost exactly the same as Scn and Dianetics.
    Metapsychology is basically a re writing of scn grades etc in simpler language.
    TIR from lectures I've attended is exactly the same as dianetics.

    Thus these methods are going into mainstream therapy. There is even a
    connection to the American Psychological Association.

    Not aware of any university teaching courses about scn.
  3. Scatman Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Good questions. I could respond to these but will defer to Terril in this thread.
  4. Scatman Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    I have read the Metapsychology curriculum and the TIR procedure and the most recent version of MP only compares to the scn grade 0 through grade 5a, but the processes have been reworded and new ones have been added. They do not have any "Clearing Course" or any "OT levels" regarding the former as irrelevant and the latter as a fraud. TIR in its most recent version is VERY different than dianetics. Perhaps you read a 1984 version.
    TIR and MP are mainstream psychotherapy, they are not going into. Your statement about the APA connection is nebulous. Exactly what do you mean?
  5. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    {chokes on Dorito}

    lolwut
  6. Scatman Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    No it is not and I think those who practice TIR would object to your stating that it "is basically Dianetics". I think you have been misinformed Terril.
  7. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    I've always majored on enjoying myself in a variety of ways. That would
    be the same. Its very likely I would have tried looking for some other way
    to knowledge and a spiritual path. I may not have found one I was interested
    in enough to pursue. I probably wouldn't be as happy tough or strong as I am.

    I'm a great proselytizer, had I found some path I liked I would have told
    everyone I could about it.

    My first course in scn was an FSM course even before TRs.
  8. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    No. However I got great results from OT 2 and 3 which I've done twice. Below something I posted on ESMB on the subject. I was also asked about this in my anon interview in San Francisco. In brief, ghosts demons, entities are one of the commonest beliefs in the world.


    From pab 12:-

    "The explosion is apparently a very definite basis in all engrams and,
    for our purposes here, can be considered to be basicbasic. And it could be remarked with this PAB that basicbasic for all cases has been discovered and is being delivered into your hands to be run,"

    "What exactly is the cycle of the explosion? One gets the preclear to
    get nothingness, then a growing expanse of whiteness, then turn the whiteness black, have the black dwindle and get nothingness again. You will readily see the similarity of this to Black and White Processing and, indeed this is the furthest extension of Black and White Processing but is many times more effective and usefull."

    "....It does not matter how poorly the preclear runs this. It does not matter if the nearest approach to whiteness is simply the idea that something might be white if he could see it"

    Note that there was a whole book dedicated to black and white processing, Scn 8-80

    PAB 12 recomends running explosions between each step of the Six Steps to Self-Auditing.

    Incident 1 :-

    "1 Patter: LOUD SNAP, WAVES OF LIGHT, HORSES DRAWING
    CHARIOT RIGHT TO LEFT, CHERUB COMES OUT,
    BLOWS HORN, COMES CLOSE, SHATTERING
    SERIES OF SNAPS, CHERUB FADES,
    RETREATS, BLACK MASS
    IS DUMPED ON THE THETAN."

    Note that this involves whiteness [ waves of light] and blackness
    [ black mass]. Sound effects are added which seems appropriate for an explosion.

    Also note that inc 2 involves lots of explosions. So if the theory of this PAB is correct entities, single unit beings, get run on explosions as much as needed.
    __________________
    Tech Outside the C of S, a personal view
  9. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    Both. In the early days most success stories I posted were taken from spontaneous posts
    on our FZ forums. Now that the FZ is much more established a lot are from the standard action
    action of asking for them at the end of an action or course. Also even in that situation people originate success stories without being asked. You can probably figure out which each is from
    the posts on ESMB.
  10. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    Always posted as TPark
  11. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?


    Reification
    In other words, it is the error of treating as a "real thing" something which is not a real thing, but merely an idea.

    Reification is a new term to me. Basically I was trying to explain my view of these
    concepts in simple language such that one didn't need a PTS/SP pack and scientology Technical dictionary [ I use Tech Dict.] to follow them, and a lot of ethics and admin tech. I was an
    E/O in fact.

    You have quoted some admin tech statements re PTSness. I consider that a real condition.
    Its often considered by FZ scientologists that the SP/PTS tech is flawed. One of course can't
    have such a view while a member or especially staff in CO$. In fact Hubbard wrote an HCOB
    " False PTSness." which talks about what one can look for if you find two many PTS people
    around, beyond his 20% approximation. In itself this is an admission of inexact tech in this
    area. The false PTS possibilities are, and I'm going into more scn language here:-

    Out ethics :- This in general caves one in and makes one less capable or willing to
    confront. One can make mistakes and get ill.

    Unhattedness:- Doing a job or post which you don't really know all you should about it.
    One them makes mistakes and thus the senior finding he has to do the job himself, a
    situation referenced in your quotes above. In other words PTS handling will do nothing,
    on the job training will.

    Ignorance of scientology basics for handling life:- Or one may wish to substitute other basics for handling life. Thus someone who has difficulty communicating will get into all sorts of trouble in life.

    Past bad auditing uncorrected:- Outlists for example, related to wrong indications.
    If your wife says you are a worthless idiot, one might spend much time mentally
    trying to figure out if this was so, and if so how, and maybe it wasn't so. This can
    be very depressing. Thus mistakes can be made, illness occur.

    The hard core def re PTSness says ALL illness and loss of case gain is PTSness. I
    don't hold to that, but consider it a good rule of thumb, and of course it includes these
    examples of false PTSness which all diminish ones quality of life.

    I simplified all this by describing it as in general being stressed out and effect, and
    that because of an individual.

    Re SP, its used mostly in a political sense. However there are the 12 points that indicate
    someone is SP. They are probably a good rough indication.

    The bottom line is that an SP dosn't make case gain in auditing. The only real test for the condition. it can be handled with power processes.

    Here is some very interesting analyses of scientology ideas including ethics tech.
    Written by Mr " Clearbird" class VIII.

    Holy Cows
  12. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    I took it from the Wiki on FMS, where it also states its a controversial idea
    within mainstream therapy.

    "Indoctrinated memories" differ yet again in that the sufferer has been subtly reduced to believe propaganda. Thought control experiments in the Soviet Union, North Korea and China proved how far false memory syndrome can be used in the control of combat troops, who may come under orders to violate the rules of war specified under the Geneva Convention. Persons who have been severely enough indoctrinated may never recover any moral perspective, resulting in reprobation and other serious disciplinary problems.[citation needed]

    The above fits the idea of scn " Implant".

    "severely enough indoctrinated" implies at least force in a non physical sense. As I said
    the RPF qualifies.

    I believe I did comment on "dub in".

    Might be some misunderstanding here between us.
  13. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    You'd need to give more evidence. The only direct info I have is a lecture given by Steve Bisby,
    [ one of the more important workers in this field] at an FZ conference I attended. Could have been a lecture about dianetics. He even quoted verbatim scn or DN axioms. He was a VERY well trained scientologist.

    Then this from Gerbode. It could be a description of dianetics.


    ------------------
    Tir in a Nutshell

    Developed by Frank A. Gerbode, M.D., of the Institute for Research in Metapsychology in Menlo Park, California, TIR is a regressive desensitization procedure for reducing or eliminating the negative residual impact of traumatic experience. As such it finds major application in cases of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). A one-on-one guided imagery process, TIR is also useful in remediation of specific unwanted stress responses, such as panic attacks, that occur without significant provocation. "Thematic TIR" traces such conditioned responses back through the history of their occurance in a client's life to the stressful incidents primarily responsible for their acquisition. The resolution of the primary incidents then reduces or eliminates the target stress response.

    As an intervention technique, TIR is both highly structured and client-centered. It is highly structured in that the therapist who is called a "facilitator" guides the client who is called a "viewer" repetitively through an imaginal replay of a specific trauma. It is client- - or, as Dr. Gerbode prefers, "person-" - centered, in that a TIR facilitator doesn't interpret or critique the viewer's experience or tell him how he should feel or what to think about it. A patient and systematic anamnesis, TIR unsuppresses the trauma being addressed to provide the viewer the opportunity to review and revise his perspective on it. TIR's uniqueness lies, in part, in the fact that a session continues until the viewer is completely relieved of whatever stress the target trauma originally provoked and any cognitive distortions (e.g., observations, decisions, conclusions) embedded within the incident have been restructured. (Gerbode, 1989)
  14. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    *Nothing*? Really? What if you had evidence that he lied about something?
  15. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    So you agree with the auditing of children then, but that's something I take issue with. You adults can choose to indulge in the craziness but subjecting children to it is nothing less than abuse.

    Tell me Terril, do these Freezone auditors have CRB checks before they're allowed unsupervised access to children? Just how do they handle the topic of sex and sexuality in these sessions? Do they realise they have a legal obligation to report underage sexual activity to the police?

    Say a child turns 12 and is allowed to go into the prenatal area. Is there going to be discussion about whether or not the mother had sex or masturbated during pregnancy?
  16. Scatman Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    You are the guy putting yourself up as an expert on scientology and all things similar but you have not even read MP materials. I have seen some of their recent copyrighted manuals, so I can state what I read. You heard a lecture by Steve Bisbey? You failed to mention when. BTW, He passed away several years ago. He may have been referring to scn data to make MP understandable to the crowd he was addressing. The books that I have seen do not contain any scientology.

    It could be a description of several methods of cognitive regression therapy.
    That summary describes a number of cognitive therapies.
    It seems to me that dianetics and scientology should get regulated just like other types of psychotherapy are and those practicioners should be licensed.
  17. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    On a personal level I'd prefer people use their actual anon Nicks. Like I don't
    know who I'm talking to most of the time.

    Objectively I see it as a good thing. I have to always be as totally honest as I can.

    I know LRH lied about some stuff.

    Marty asked me what my relationship to LRH was. I said I didn't have one,
    my relationship was to the tech.
  18. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    If 2 herps are squared over the square root of derp and then divided by zero- then what is the value of X?
  19. Scatman Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    However, the 12 points invented by Hubbard have no scientific basis whatsoever. Terril, can you name one person you have met who has those 12 characteristics most of the time who is "evil"? I never have and have never known a scientologist who has either.
    So, if a person does not "make case gain in auditing", that is, benefit from scientology auditing, that person, by definition, is a SP?
    What if that person benefits from doing yoga, or meditation, or psychotherapy? Is that person still, according to you, an SP?
    Is the SP label just a way to dehumanize someone who does not like scientology?
  20. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    I give you credit for allowing yourself that opinion. It takes integrity to think critically about one's own belief system.

    Anonymous posts can be disconcerting, but it's also a way to keep the focus on the issues rather than on personalities.
  21. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    I've not heard of any discussions in the FZ re auditing children.

    Dunno what a CRB check is.

    This is the only success story I can recall from a child.

    This abuse?


    ----------------
    TECH outside COS: Lemon poppyseed muffins!


    Success Story 12/28/09
    From a delightful 10 year old girl.
    Her dad brought her here from back east. She spent 3 days here.


    "I loved my auditing every second we had a session. I even loved the last 2 minutes of a session in a fiery sauna! :) I really liked it when my auditor made me lemon poppyseed muffins and let me audit her! I know the things I learned will help me later on in life. I will miss her and her muffins and lots more stuff. (P.S. The sauna will make you burn up 1 second after you step in! :))"

    Anita Warren
    Life Improvement Center
    Life Improvement Center of Deer Lake
  22. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    Terril,

    What do you think of the sort of "end phenomenon" (we'll say) of reaching a point in one's own journey where instead of deferring and duplicating a self-proclaimed "source" , you truly "locate" or find yourself and become your own master.

    Like this really great expression...

    "If you see the Buddah on the road, kill him."

    (metaphor.
    basically, don't make anybody else your god.)
  23. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    I'm curious. Do you know Les Warren? Do you know why he became a FreeZoner?
  24. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    I don't claim to be expert in TIR and MP. Know quite a few people who use this
    including " Standard Techies". One motivation is they can't be attacked by COS.

    Heard him approx 4-5 years ago.

    Frank Gerbode started this whole shebang. I quoted his reference to taking scn/dn
    materials seriously in his introduction to his first book.

    Have recently spoken to an old time scientologist who now does metapsychology.
    Will also use scn for selected people including an old friend of mine. He describes
    Mayo's input as genius.

    In the forward to his book Gerbode commented that many may take issue with
    his reference to scn/dn. Its hardly suprising that he dosn't dwell on this.

    Not good positioning in PR speak.
  25. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    I met one person who had all such indications and did me harm.

    I'll see if I can dig up her letters and written comm and scan them here.
  26. Scatman Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    So, in your whole career in scientology, you have met only ONE person who has exhibited a majority of the 12 SP characteristics most of the time.
    How many people have you known who DID NOT have a majority of those 12 characteristics most of the time who did you harm?
  27. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    Terril,

    Many have observed that a great deal of the "tech" LRH developed had its origins in the works of others. As far as psychology / philosophy goes, would it then not be a logical conclusion that one could study these areas and gain a workable education and understanding of psychology?
  28. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    My whole career in life. There was one other, Virginia McClaughrey who I only knew via the net.
    Mentioned her earlier.

    It seems I'm good at avoiding/ not getting involved with, such toxic personalities

    And I can willingly and freely come here and have great appreciation of anons.

    I always look for the best in others, and what one looks for one usually finds.
  29. Scatman Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    It's not clear to me where you mentioned her earlier.
    Did she have a majority of the 12 characteristics most of the time, or not?
  30. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    Anonymous here, thanks for your reply. I like this answer a lot, you don't meet many people who subscribe to dianetics that don't also worship hubbard and take everything he wrote or said as [BOOMINGVOICE]Absolute Truth[/BOOMINGVOICE].
    Well done.

    You have pointed to anecdotal evidence that auditing can have positive effects, and I'm willing to believe that it sometimes can for some people. The real question is can this be turned into a scientifically useful clinical tool? If you really wanted to study that question, you could get yourself educated in the brain sciences (psychology or psychiatry or neuroscience) and then conduct your own clinical trials subject to peer review. If there really is something that works, only peer reviewed clinical studies would be able to establish that to most people's satisfaction.

    If the clinical studies failed, showing that it either was harmful for a minority of people, or that it did not produce results beyond a placebo, would you then be able to admit you were wrong?
  31. 3rdMan Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    I extend my personal thanks to Terril for the Q&A, especially given that he had to go the distance to respond to so many posts.
  32. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    ^This
  33. Miranda Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    I agree with this suggestion. Such studies might clarify not only whether e-meters actually "work" but also the degree to which the intimacy of the exchange, the individual's emotional or financial investment in it, or the mere fact of it, could produce or enhance results in and of themselves.
  34. adhocrat Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    all these radicals calling for properly done clinical studies with math and everything.

    Null hypothesis: in and of itself scientology auditing does nothing

    alternate hypothesis: auditing works and it helps people.
  35. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    Decide for yourself. Here are some posts from her son from ESMB. I'm quite shamefully
    promoting myself by posting this stuff here. Anyway, Andy Warhol talks of 15 minutes of
    fame.

    Complete thread from ESMB here:-

    HELP - Ex Scientologist Message Board


    -----------------------
    Quote:Originally Posted by Terril park
    First point. The greatest overt there is, is to make someone guilty of an overt. Loosely as I recall from somewhere, and its true for me. You seem to have suffered this.

    Tom
    Well said. If you'll allow me, there is something I wasnt allowed to do for the last 16 years, and I'm going to do it now, NATTER!! Yay! It was more than just overts she made me guilty of.

    Every time I tried to bring up any of her abuses towards me or said she was wrong in any way (think of questioning her like questioning lrh), it was me bringing up motivators, it was service facs, it was evil intentions. "Do we need to have mike put you on the meter and pull your withholds?" Oh joy sexual guilt... Which looking back is hypocritical since mike got caught looking at porn lol... If I got angry that just proved it. If I called her names or got emotional or irrational myself, further proof. I'm nasty evil and selfish and basically my very presence is a taint upon the universe and I need to just get out of her space. She'd kick me out at a young age in total disgust. Like I was some evil being inhabiting her sons body. I began to hate her.

    /end rant
    Ok sorry! Enough of that, whew!

    -----------------------
    Quote:Re Alan Walters she made serious allegations about him on ACT re
    sexual abuse. Alan was a much loved poster here until his recent passing.
    Met him 2 years ago. I challenged her for the data, and she said her
    informants wished to remain anon. Got her to make a piss poor apology to Alan publically.

    What?? You say my mom made a poor apology? NO!! It can't be!! LOL. Yeah. My mom has NEVER ONCE IN HER ENTIRE life, and I say that very literally, made a legitimate apology for anything real. She is incapable of it. To be honest I think she would have a psychotic episode if she tried it.

    That thing you wrote was hilarious too btw


    -----------------------
    So I had a nice chat with Terril Park from these forums this morning on the phone. I have to say for an "evil marcabian agent" he was a very nice fellow with a very laid back, pleasant manner and I found talking to him very enjoyable. He instantly put me more at ease.

    There was one thing he said in particular which I am still thinking about so I thought I would share it here because maybe it will have some value for others on this forum. He was talking about his earlier post where he said "The greatest overt there is, is to make someone guilty of an overt." He said that happened to him once, my thinking is a bit fuzzy but I think he said it happened to him while in the SO (he can correct that if its wrong) and it really threw him even though he considers himself a strong person. He also granted that it happened to him only once but it happened to me many many times.

    I felt a strong sense of validation for my own struggles when he said this, because I know it has been incredibly hard for me and I really got the sense he understands. Sometimes I wish inside that I could just break down and cry my eyes out and scream and wail and SHOW people just how I feel, but I can't. I haven't been able to show my emotions freely since I was a young boy. I don't want to compare my experience to anyone else's but a lot of the reason I never told anyone about this stuff is if I would ever try I got the feeling people just would not understand, they can't see it so is it really there? I didn't even understand it well enough myself to explain it. Worse than that sometimes I got the feeling people thought I was being weak, or lazy, or complaining. Obviously Scientology reinforces this line of thinking so I didn't need other peoples help with this, in fact if I ever felt that from other people I would completely withdraw. On top of all this, I'm 6'0", athletic, attractive, I seem normal and to have a lot going for me, so just faking it and hiding my feelings all the time seemed a lot easier than confronting them. People don't want to hear someone like me complain, they wouldn't understand. All I wanted was to be liked and loved and to put all this behind me and I definitely didn't want to be viewed as weak and lazy so I hid all this for so long but that made me completely unable to get close to anyone, and there on the phone I felt like Terril really understood me better than anyone ever has. So thank you Terril.

    I recently stopped posting because it seemed like interest in this thread died down and I sort of felt like maybe I was just whining and no one really wanted to hear all this. Other people have been through worse and nobody really wants to hear me moan and groan and complain and those sorts of thoughts were going through my head. Well I realize now that it's ok to ask for help, it's ok to talk and talk about what happened because I never really have and I need to get it out FOR ME. If other people gain some insight or it helps others then that's just gravy. It doesn't mean I'm weak if I need to get this out, it doesn't mean I'm complaining, it doesn't mean I'm negative. I'm sure some other people do want to hear about it. Even if they don't, it's therapeutic for me to talk about it and let it out. So from now on, I'm going to keep talking about stuff in this thread as time permits.

    I think the next thing I will talk about is my experiences after I left the church. I will save the worst stuff for last.
  36. Terril Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    Was Jung who first used a meter, and also first used a prepared list to
    use with it.
  37. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    Terril,

    I don't quite understand the context of the quotes you shared above here,
    - but it seems like it may not be appropriate to share other really private stuff about other people, like even if they are including it in some sort of "testimonial" for your stellar auditing skills.

    odd.
  38. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    Jung did not use a meter.
  39. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    now i'm turned off.
    shame.

    terril, please go back if you would and see if you might share your thoughts in response to some pretty interesting questions that various anons asked of you.

    thanks.
  40. Anonymous Member

    Re: Questions about Scientology?

    A new discovery relevant to this thread:

    Method to erase traumatic memories may be on the horizon

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