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Question about Narconon franchise

Discussion in 'Narconon' started by mama2mudbugs, Aug 1, 2012.

  1. mama2mudbugs Member

    Hi everyone!

    I am sure everyone here knows ABLE owns the Narconon franchise. Also ABLE is legally a separate corporation from the COS. However ABLE was included in the 1993 closing agreement with the IRS.

    Can this proven physical link be used in court to bring COS as a co defendant? Would this be enough evidence to show the courts that COS owns Narconon?

    We all know its the same program but Narconon separates by saying "Works of LRH" and not the religion of Scientology.
    Can prosecutors use the closing agreement in 1993 to show otherwise?

    Every case I have looked up, Narconon has settled out of court for undisclosed amounts. Granted I have only been looking into the cases for a few days. I can't find any cases where the 1993 agreement has been used to directly link COS to Narconon but I could be missing it?
  2. BigBeard Member

    You need to research the Wolersheim case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Wollersheim

    The wiki article is the short form. Cof$ settled when they did because Larry's lawyers convinced the court the Cof$ was playing corporate shell games, and in fact everything was controlled by DM through the Sea Org. Even though they admitted on the record to 'Fair Game', they didn't want the corporate sham part of a citable court record, so they settled to keep it from happening.

    There's also lots of info showing the true structure of the Cof$ out there. Somewhere in the WWP archives there are a couple of threads going into minute detail you might find useful.

    BigBeard
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  3. mama2mudbugs Member

    Thanks Bigbeard! I will look into that right away! I am not a dummy, just a noob trying to take a crash course on the legal end of things. i am a quick learner.

    I don't think I was clear enough in what I was looking into. I am not interested in the Civil lawsuits. Those are great but not as big of a win as a criminal case with the State or the Feds.

    Would that be enough evidence to link COS to Norconon in a criminal trial where settling out of court for cash isn't an option? Could the DA list COS as a co- defendant?

    Sadly Narconon is small potatoes when looking at the whole picture. I am sure all of us would love to see DM having to take the stand and give testimony why he is such an SOB.
    • Like Like x 2
  4. BigBeard Member

    I suspect it would take a DA's office with a lot of $$, time, and the will to make the case to make the connection in a criminal case. If a DA's office did take it on, they might have more luck breaking loose the complete 1993 Closing Agreement than anyone has so far. That would pretty much cinch the connection.

    Although everyone pretty much agrees what was leaked is accurate, the problem with what's been released of the Closing Agreement to date is the IRS hasn't validated it. So it's pretty much legally not much use except for enlightening the uninformed about the Cof$ front groups.

    BigBeard
  5. mama2mudbugs Member

    I just finished reading on this case. i wanted to thank you for recommending it. What an amazing person. I don't think I know anyone that strong to be able to go through what he did for 20 years. Truly shows the human spirit can do mighty things to change the world :D

    My hope is the state or Feds open a case against Narconon due to the negligent deaths of so many patients. That would be a criminal case rather then civil if they can get the evidence to take it to court. I am sure the vast majority of the evidence (one way or another guilt or not guilt) is not being made public. It would so great if they could open that 1993 IRS closed agreement to prove COS is ultimately responsible with their dangerous methods.

    It might be really tough to prove the program itself caused the deaths.
  6. eddieVroom Member

    When you go in for a Purification Rundown, is it ever done in a Narconon facility? I'm thinking "dual use" might be a playable angle.
  7. mama2mudbugs Member

    It is really confusing but honestly extremely fascinating. Its hard to believe the lengths people go to. Narconon claims to use the teachings of LRH and are not Scientology. COS owns the rights to the books Narconon buys. COS claims its a religious ceremony and protected as such. Narconon claims its a medical program for drug rehab.

    I could be wrong but I think the easiest explanation here would be if you went to a mainstream rehab and they had the Christian Bible in your room. You read the passage on "eye for an eye" and decided to get revenge for someone who had hurt you in the past. You can point to the passage as your defense but you can't sue the pope.

    ETA: The rights are owned by the RTC and not the COS itself. This just makes it even more confusing.
  8. adhocrat Member

    If you realize that's their intent, it becomes clear.
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  9. DeathHamster Member

    It was The Court Case That Would Not Die.
  10. mama2mudbugs Member

    ACCKK would that make me a WWP-OT? :p
    • Like Like x 1
  11. adhocrat Member

    Don't get ahead of yourself, grasshopper. You're just a clear, which puts you in the danger zone. (Cue Kenny Loggins music) You need to immediately get on the OT path. First you have to pass the sec checks to qualify for OT.
    'Have you ever thought Hubbard was crazy?'

    Good, you now qualify for WWP OT levels. Now, let's go see the reg...we offer teh lulz, for a small contribution.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. mama2mudbugs Member

    AS long as I don't have to pay $2750!!!
    OMG I was looking into Margery Wakefield's lawsuit and naturally came across her book, "Testimony". It was ok reading but not what I would call "couldn't put it down" reading. However 1 small part in the book will NOT leave my memory. In her OT-1 course she had to go to the mall and find a person. That was the only requirement. As she said, "This cost me $2750".

    I understand brainwashing and how they suck in their victims but that hit home for me more then anything else. Its always those strange things we remember. There are certain primal urges women have and being at the mall with $2750 and using that to find a person?! That is some serious brainwashing. I am not trying to be funny even though my husband laughed at me when I showed him. Seriously, most women live to shop. Even if its just window shopping.
    That is tight control the COS had on even just a small aspect of someone's life. As I said, not the worst I have read but certainly that 1 thing that keeps sticking out in my mind.
  13. Anonymous Member

    You might consider doing all of your background work and building your files etc. Then wait & bide your time until the economy gets better no government state or federal can afford it right now. When you have all your ducks in a row, the economy picks up, gov hires back all the laid off employees, then start to try to get someone's attention.
  14. likey Member

    well in the u.k narconon brought in an Emetre to audit staff and volunteers who were not scientologists and if you refused your to go on it your life would of been made very difficult indeed .
  15. likey Member

    so to say that narconon has no links with scientology is absolute rubbish
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. mama2mudbugs Member

    I think you missed my point. Legally Narconon is not linked to COS in paperwork. There is not enough evidence that can prove it in court. If you had Doxx, photos or video of these forced audits then there would be some very important people who have tried for years to prove the link with physical evidence who would love you for all time. :D

    Rumor and/or hearsay can't be used in court. I am by no means saying your wrong or lying so please don't think that. Its not what is true or un true but what can be proven in court.

    Narconon stands by the practice of "LRH"'s works. That would mean they follow the books on drug addiction. I haven't read the books yet but I do intend to in the near future. That is where one of their many loop holes are. We are not COS though we teach the writings of LRH. See the problem?
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  17. BigBeard Member

    I believe David Love has provided documentation to various Canadian government agencies that pretty clearly establish the link between Cofr$ and $cientology. Investigations/Litigation pending at this time.

    I believe one of the $cientology magazines, International $cientology News, from 2004 even has a pretty color picture and article laying out the connections between the borgs and front groups.

    One location in the forums for the picture is: https://whyweprotest.net/community/...-sexual-harassment.56381/page-21#post-1168953

    It's scattered around in other places also.

    BigBeard
    • Like Like x 2
  18. DeathHamster Member

    Narconon International HQ in LA is staffed by Sea Org, just across the street from Author Services Inc and Davey's secret LA residence.
    http://goo.gl/maps/VgCx8
  19. Anonymous Member

    Right, and since there is no group which can legally use the trademarked symbols "LRH", nor "L. Ron Hubbard", other than those duly licensed or otherwise given explicit written, documented permission by Religious Technology Center, the holders of all Scientology-related trademarks and service marks, thus it follows that

    Narconon = Scientology = RTC = David Miscavige
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  20. Tourniquet Member

    Didn't mean post 19 to be Anonymous :)
  21. fishypants Moderator

    How about in the Miscavige end-of-year Scientology presentations?

    Also I'm pretty certain there's a section labelled Narconon in the plans (architects' drawings) for the Super Power Building.
  22. Anonymous Member

    2004 IAS event - Narconon gets several mentions as an essential function of Scientology's mission to clear the planet. Listen specifically from 04:20:

    • Winner Winner x 3
  23. DeathHamster Member

    • Like Like x 1
  24. fishypants Moderator

  25. BigBeard Member

    A link to the graphic is in post #17 above.

    BigBeard
  26. anon walker Moderator

    I don't know. Giving someone with compromised liver function toxic doses of vitamins...there's a direct correlation there. Look, if I had a drug rehab that administered arsenic, I could claim a 100% success rate, but the treatment is fatal, so it would probably be blamed for all the deaths I had to cover up in the back 40 at 2:00 am with a shovel.

    A breakdown of the NN treatment clearly shows health-threatening elements. Depending on the death, I think in some circumstances blame could be directly placed on NN's head.
  27. eddieVroom Member

    Yup. And I've seen plenty of pics of Org Charts showing Narconon as part of Scientology.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  28. SOJOA Member

    I think the best that could happen is the courts could determine and state that the "Works of LRH" are toxic and unacceptable forms of treatment. If that were to be stated then a movement on CoS legally would be much easier to tackle.
  29. mama2mudbugs Member

    How can they do this without infringing on freedom of religion? I know COS only uses religion to get around laws and taxes but USA declared them a religion.
  30. BigBeard Member

    No, the IRS declared them a 501(c)3 charitable organization, $cientology says that means the IRS decided they are a "bona fide religion", which is not the same thing.

    BigBeard
    • Agree Agree x 4
  31. mama2mudbugs Member

    I understand what your saying but the US has recognized them as a religion. The State Dept has gone as far as to condemn other countries for not doing the same in the name of religious freedom. The State Dept. report in 2005 declared that Scientology was a registered religion by State Commission on Religious Affairs.

    It is one of the things I have been reading a lot about. Even though I 100% believe Scientology is a dangerous cult and should lose their status as a non profit agency I also am a strong defender of religious freedom and the laws that protect those religions. It has been one of the hardest things for me honestly. Where does the line get drawn? People have the right to believe what they want. i am not big on the thought of Governments telling me what I can and can't believe. At the same time the activities of the COS are so slimy they should not have been declared a religion with the commission on religious affairs in the first place.
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  32. In a lot of countries, religions do not get automatic tax exemption. They have to pass a public benefit test first, which Scientology will naturally fail. A similar rule in the US would solve your dilemma I believe.
  33. mama2mudbugs Member

    Yes, they should have their tax exemption yanked away and the paperwork used as TP in the bathroom. However people have the right to believe what they want. Religious freedom is extremely important. Why? The Alternative is scarier.

    In our school system they have taken Christmas out of the public schools. They have "winter holiday". I assume this is fair. Now I am reading that even though Santa Clause can't be talked about, Scientology can come in and speak to my children about drug addiction? I DON'T THINK SO! Signed, mad mama :mad:
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  34. anon walker Moderator

    One thing, Narconon is being sold as a SECULAR program to a non-Scientology customer base. Whatever they do in the orgs as religious, they are free to poison themselves as part of their practice.

    They are NOT free to sell this crap secularly, then hide behind a religious based defense when it goes sideways.
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  35. Anonymous Member

    When Scientologists relapse, they are referred only to Narconon, no other institution will do.
  36. mama2mudbugs Member

    Yup. Totally agree. Narconon is a business catering to the needs of the community. They should at the very least be required to disclose to the public their religious affiliation as well as the dangers the medical community (AMA in the States) has stated.

    You can't stop people from believing what they want. You can however protect unknowing victims who get reeled in and do not have a clue.
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  37. What?? This can't be... ,as a Nordic pagan I am enraged. My beloved halfGod Odin has come down and thrown presents down chimneys, like way, way before this Jesus dude came along. Somehow that idiot catches on, and they decided to replace my DemiGod with some random guy from Turkey. Saint Nicolas, they named him. A fucking disgrace, I tell you. He looks like an idiot in his bishop atire. And THEN Coca Cola comes along and gives him this silly Santa Clause name with the silly suit and the fucking reindeer. A real, real fucking disgrace, I tell you. And now, now, you are telling me even that isn't allowed anymore? What the fuck. The sheer fucking depths this world has sunken to......unbelievable....
  38. mama2mudbugs Member

    It would seem some people are seriously offended about an old fat man giving presents out but yes in many schools systems (including ours) they have taken Christmas, Christmas trees, Santa and all of it out. The younger kids make snowflakes for "winter holiday" even though it doesn't snow where we live :rolleyes:

    This is to protect students who do not follow the Christian religion. It makes them uncomfortable having that stuff shoved at them. As i said, fair enough. But Narconon is using the same laws that wiped out Christmas in the school systems to get into the schools and talk to those same students. That is royally screwed up.
  39. SOJOA Member

    I hear you but whether its blackmail or whatever, the fact is in the court of law, whether its a church or not, does not mean they CANT condemn the teaching or works of LRH. If they claim and deem it to be so, then we can move further. Also, having stated, maybe, that it is not an approved practical medical treatment, then the church can and will be looked at differently for using the tech.

    Once the tech is found or deemed to be not an applicable, acceptable, registered or FDA approved use for any sort of treatment, then it doesnt matter what the State Dept says or does. The courts will uphold its statements and that will override any issues that may have issues with the church teachings.

    Plus, the US does not want to be seen as harbouring a cult. We have dealt over the years with several and the US with its ego doesnt want to be seen as the last bastion for cults.

    First we get the jobs, then we get the khakis, then we get the girls.
  40. mama2mudbugs Member

    There have been many cases of religious practices going before the courts. The LDS church sued so many times it is often joked that they wrote the book on Religious freedom. One case that is similar with the LRH teachings drug addicts to get clean would be Peyote. It was outlawed for many years however with the newer religious freedom acts that protect Native American religion it is now legal to use in religious ceremonies. Peyote can be a dangerous drug used in the wrong way, the same as niacin. This was the courts ruling on peyote:

    So if Narconon is NOT part of COS like they prefer to scream and whine about, this does not effect them. They can't use dangerous treatments on the general population. However, the COS is legally protected and everyone of their members can overdose on vitamins and be within their legal right to do so.

    That is why linking Narconon is important. COS can't use religious freedom acts in order to protect its drug rehabs and then turn around and claim that Narconon is not affiliated with any religion.

    As to the US not wanting to harbor a cult. This is completely not true. The Govt. has classified it a religion as is seen in the Dept of religious affairs. Officially our Govt. does not see them as a cult.

    It could be they have friends in high places but between the 1993 IRS agreement and the 2005 State Dept. act it will be pretty close to impossible for our Govt. to close down the COS. We can prosecute each illegal act a member is involved in but not the entire church. Narconon is WAY different. Its a company.
    I am not sure if the religious freedom act that made peyote legal would apply to Narconon but my guess is no but it would apply to COS.
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