Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws Okay, so I was thinking about this last night. I felt that, while complying to the anti-mask laws of North Carolina is what we have been doing and will continue to do (in regards to the NCanons) is all peaches, what if there was a way to legally get around it. So I started looking for alternative methods written into the law. Eek. That's pretty solidly written. I mean, they don't allow any loopholes like safety issues or privacy rights. I was going to give up hope, but an idea struck me. Usually, this ends with me tied to a bed, but this time, I didn't get raped. City Ordinances (from my basic knowledge of Government) can supersede certain state laws, correct? For example, the speed limit. States can set the max at 55 for an area, and the local government can set their max of 45. The Local law has precedence here. The key of this is not that one law is more important than the other, rather that one law can introduce a difference without completely negating the other. To continue on my previous example, if the State Law is set at 55, the local government cannot pass a law that would set the speed at 75, because that would negate the State law's boundaries. So, in theory, one could preposition the Local City Council (or whichever local government for said area passes laws) to look into adding a city ordinance or city permit that would allow masks in a different way. For example, North Carolina has it set that you cannot wear the mask and appear on any public property or use the mask to conceal your identity. A work around to this would be to create an addendum that would state something (in more legalese terms) that a mask would be applicable if a perceived threat or risk to the person would prevent the message from being distributed otherwise. There are instances where it has been noted in the past that Anonymity is a right to the person if they are the dissenting to the majority. McIntyre V. Ohio Elections Commission tl;dr backstory - Margaret McIntyre gave out leaflets opposing a School Board Tax that were unsigned (anonymously created, in short). The commission felt this violated laws and fined her $100. She took it to the Ohio Supreme Court, on the grounds that the leaflets did not misrepresent, mislead, or lie to the community. The OSC, however, ruled against her, with a cheap response of (in more words) that the fliers needed to be signed so that, if fraud or lies were spread, they'd have a source, and that the creator should be able to sign it without the statement losing validity. The dissent, however, was what I found most interesting. Justice Wright (inb4 Phoenix Wright) wrote; An interesting point given by the link of this article was how Anonymity has had a major role in this country (USA) in the past, referencing the Federalist Papers. Source for the previous Wall of Text; McIntyre V. OEC Another source I had found was Talley V. California On the face, Talley V. California is eerily similar to the previous information, except it actually was reversed as should be. tl;dr version- Talley printed out Handbills anonymously. Talley was convicted of breaking an ordinance and fined $10. The case was taken to the U.S. Supreme Court in which it was overturned, citing that Source: Talley V. California So, while it seems that I'm providing examples of flyering and handbills, these are both protected means under the 14th Amendment . Okay, sorry for such a long and (probably) unreadable wall o' text, but my point/question is this; Would a properly worded request to the City Council/Local Government, citing sources such as these, have any affect on an anti-mask law? The laws (at least in NC) were written in 1953 to prevent the Klan from using their masks to intimidate, and now, ironically, they're being used to help another Cult intimidate. The Gboro Police Department cites that the laws are now used as "anti-robbery legislation", but in that same vein of thought, doesn't that mean they are assuming any masked person is a criminal? If any legalfags/writerfags would like to pitch in some help, it'd be much appreciated. Any comments/thoughts/suggestions would also be great. We aren't banking on this to work, but it's better than just going with the flow and ignoring it. Every newfag that has come to our site, the first thing they say is something like "Wait, we can't wear a mask?" or something similar. I'd like to at least attempt a try to fix this. Thanks guise.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws County / city ordinances can be more restrictive than state law -- but they don't supersede it. If the state law says no masks, a lower authority like a city or county can't negate that.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws "Gee, I want to rob this liquor store, but it's against the law to wear a mask! Guess I'm outta luck." Kind of very retarded, isn't it? ^ That said, you may be on to something, Anon. I like the way you think.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws No, and if they were, I can't protest with them. Megan's Law and whatnot.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws I worded the beginning terribly. I am not actually looking for the supersede, but an addendum to the current law. Or a city ordinance that would allow masked protesting as a feature of safety, with a possible Permit. I know the city allows masks on holidays relating to the event, i.e. we can wear our masks for Halloween and we can wear the masks for the 5th of November, from what I've been told/understood.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws Even if you do get an addendum on the local level all the scilons would have to do is call in the County sheriff or the state police. They trump the local police.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws exactly fer instance a locality cannot say "sometimes masks" but they can say "also no hats"
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws You really need to challenge the state law -- rather than try to do anything at the municipal level. For an example of how bad trying to work around a higher authority works out, take a look at San Francisco's medical cannabis dispensaries. The city of SF has OK'd them and they operate without fear of the local PD giving them any grief, but the DEA swoops in every few months and nails one or two of them.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws While that may be true, we would then, in theory, have permission from the local government to do so. At that point, the most the state could do is take this into consideration and tell us to take of the masks. (Example, we have some things we're allowed to do that the law is iffy or unclear on. Gboro told us we can do some things, but that since the law is unclear, to keep a printout copy so if we were to get in trouble over this, we'd have proof that, as far as we understood, what we were doing was not illegal). And if this were to happen, we're back where we started at, maskless protests. This thread is, as stated, talking about a possible avenue to get around the law. The only way I could see feasible, other than harpooning state legislature, was seeing about City Ordinances.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws Did some say peaches? OMG here I come When we went to protest cchr in ATL we contacted the city and not the county for that one. We still did not wear masks (state law), but we did get some other info we needed. So yes sometimes other things apply due to location changes. My opinion: don't write go visit in person for a face to face. You need to show the city official in person you are not the reason that law was made. You are a nonviolent protester who is only trying to protect themselves not intimidate the general public. Bring materiel to leave with them. Use language the common person will understand. For example most people will not understand fair game, but they will understand harassment. If they still say no you at the very least have educated a city official about the cult that's in their backyard. If you get permission to wear masks be sure to get it in writing and carry it on you at all times. Make sure every protester caries a copy of the paperwork. You can write the ACLU, but as most bitter ATLers can tell you they don't care about small cases only big ones. Could we have worn masks in ATL is something I'll never know cause idiots/plants (I lean towards plants) grabbed the lead here and cause a lot of damage. When we ran 100-200 at a protest we were ripe for infiltration.So few really new who was who and what was what. Since you are starting out small you will be able to control that better. tl;dr go for a sit down
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws Thanks, that's actually very helpful. I guess I'll schedule an appointment with the City Council (perhaps just one member, or the mayor, so I don't have to do a public meeting) and see how that goes. It'd be nice if I could do it over the phone as well though, since it's over a hundred miles to get there. I'll work on something though. I appreciate all the responses in the topic though, guys. Even the criticism has been helpful.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws Also, P1 found an odd law on the books that said you can wear masks here if the property is private and you have written permission of the property owner. However, this did little to help us out. Any chance you have the same law and it would be useful to you?
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws I found the same law, and it is as unhelpful as possible. That would restrict us to protesting on someone's lawn, and that wouldn't help, as we'd have to be near the Org to do so, and once we step onto the public area, we'd have to mask off. We're in the middle of a city, no private lots nearby that we could use. I was running into some instances of the law having exemptions, but I can't find them again. My problem is this. If it is truly an original Klan law, then it allows the Klan to form up in their own property and it defeats the purpose. The other problem being, if it is an anti-robbery law, it assumes everyone wearing a mask to be a criminal and kinda goes against the whole "Innocent until proven guilty" thing. The best angle I can think to come up with is that the law actually, while intending to protect citizens from harm, opens up that avenue by disallowing masks. Greensboro also has no set protest laws. They're one of the few cities in NC that don't. When trying to get approval to protest, they made me fill out a form for a parade, assuming that's what we were doing. I don't see why they can't do the same type of permit, but to allow masked protest, and make one person (the signer) responsible for it.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws hmmm.... We wore masks in the Dragoncon Parade, but could not carry protest signs. Something got the whole con an exception to the masklaw. ( that was for the city of atl and we protest someplace else) Actually it being a con people are masked and walking around parts of ATL that whole weekend. You might pm Raven about the Dragoncon thing since she talked to the parade coordinator to get us in. Raven may know more.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws I will do that later tonight, when I get off of work. One thing I did find was Virginia's mask law. They have the same thing as ours, but with three exceptions. One being the age and the third being the need for a mask for health reasons. The second was important. (ii) engaged in professions, trades, employment or other activities and wearing protective masks which are deemed necessary for the physical safety of the wearer or other persons That would be a nice rewrite to the law.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws I take it the ban of disguising "devices" would also include makeup/facepaint and/or padding in the mouth (to change shape of the face)? How does this clash with religious beliefs/rights? If it's part of your religion, can you be covered up?
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws Hey, here's an odd idea: you're not allowed to conceal your identity, right? So would you be allowed to wear a paper facemask that has printed on it a photo of your face as, say, a five year old? It's still you...
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws Interesting point and I should have clarified. From my information from the Gboro police department, obvious religious exemptions (Veils for Muslimic women) exist, although not on the books. And face paint is fine in small doses. No cop (supposedly) will arrest you for wearing facepaint as long as it doesn't cover up a part of your face. And the problem with that, the "part" isn't defined and I'd worry Scilons would call the cops and say "Oh, too much facepaint! I'm a giant faggot!" Makeup falls in the category of facepaint. What I've been told, wear a hat and large sunglasses. The problem is, that covers a small portion of who you are. A fake mustache and beard can be used too, but in combination with the hat and sunglasses, I'd be interested to see how a Scilon interprets that (too much masking, I'd assume).
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws NOT A LEGAL EXPERT....but from what I understand... 1st, and not to nitpick, but as far as I know ALL speed limits are set by the states, not towns or counties...at least thats how it is in my state. I mention this because there are certain things that cities have NO control over, so you may hit THAT dead end. But you're correct about overlapping jurisdictions in certain circumstances, one example being "dry" towns that choose not to allow liquor or porn even though the state does. It would definitely be an avenue to explore, in fact I'm sure your city hall or city council reps could answer that question for you the best, because those types of things tend to vary by state and they'll know exactly the conditions for their city. MY WAY to get around it is to resort to face painting. I would first recommend theDead Presidents 'ghost face' paint since it was designed to eliminate discernible differences in face traits. BUT they may not like that if it appears to obscure your identity too much...so... SURELY there's no way for them to mess with you for having a stereotypical clown face and nose, right? What if you're juggling (learn)? Point being that there has to be a way to disguise your face with paint/make-up that they can't hold against you, because there has to be a point at which they draw a line for what is acceptable. They wouldn't enforce that law on a girl wearing WAY too much make-up, so there has to be that "acceptable" line.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws If its cold noone can say shit about scarves. And I don't think a cop can make you take off sunglasses just because they're big, so get some BIG ones! Anyone ever tried hillbilly teeth?? HAHA. Also, long wigs could help some, with the glasses and maybe a turtleneck. I bet if you walked into nice attorneys' offices in your area and asked for one minute pro-bono to help you maintain your right to protest anonymously that SOME attorney would give you the minute of his day. Just have the law ready and ideas you have to get around it and see what they think would fly. Defense attorneys especially tend to have a feel for the temperments of the local police regarding certain issues. Couldn't hurt. P.S. - That's a BULLSHIT law, I don't think that would ever fly in my state. Keep it up, you'll find the loophole.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws ACTUALLYif you paid any attention you would realize there were several private properties right across from the org, we could be like OHAI, CAN WE HAS YOUR YARD NAO???
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws Sorry to triple post, just had some more thoughts... WORD. Remember, you're the innocent good guy, not the Co$! I'm not sure about that one, because that's what jurisdiction is all about. Think the trailer crime crime scene on Super Troopers for an idea of that. As long as there is a city law (or addendum to one) to be enforced on city property, its the city cops' call to make. But the city may be fine with the sheriff taking over, or may not be there to reign in their jurisdiction powers, which means you could still be screwed. I've always understood jurisdiction as something to not be played with, so definitely err on the side of caution. I would think that if the city made the addendum and the other authorities were notified that they'd respect the city's wishes. Again, just my take, no guarantees here, definitely try to consult a pro (Attorney, City Councilman, etc.) Haha, AWESOME. I'd love to see that protest.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws I'm pretty sure that would go over nicely. Hey guys, uh, you know your neighbors? Well, they're a dangerous cult. We can has permission to stand in your yard and implicate you in our doings, thus opening you to a more accessible version of Fair Game?
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws There's a similar exempt to that here. It applies to protective facegear like welding masks, that's all.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws I know its a long ways off, but we asked about masks for a Halloween protest and we were told no. The laws here took that into account. I'll relook over my dcon notes and send you what I have, but its not much
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws What about pollution masks?? Maybe with a docs note for allergies? Haha, if you could pull that off just start the "NC Allergic People Against the Cult" club!
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws Pwnon, I still say you fags' best bet is still growing EFG goatees. =D
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws I actually specifically asked about that. It isn't allowed. The bottom line is those laws are old and waiting to be challenged. Not dropping any info here about it, but it won't be long before they are. The Klan is dead and it's time for NC to stop being so protective.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws AHHHHHHHHH.....gotcha.... I was wondering why such an obviously oppressive law was in place, but I guess there was a need for it once. Makes sense. Yeah, something tells me that if a guy walks down the street in an NC city with a klan hood on these days he has bigger worries than the police...
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws I didn't mention it was originally a Klan law? I thought I did....my bad. The stance now is that its a "anti-robbery law", but it was created in the 1950's. Most of the southern states have the same law, and it's been cited as to curb the Klan. I just think it's time for a little change in some things. Umbrella law is umbrella.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws You did. Doesn't it snow in NC sometimes? Is that law supposed to say that you couldn't go out in public with a ski mask covering your face on a cold day? What about muslims. There are some sects of muslims that require the woman to entirely cover her face (looking thru a thin cottony gauze), and others where maybe just the eyes are visible. Are these woman prohibited from their normal attire by this law? And why would allowing masks on Halloween be "allowed", other than they would be "looking the other way" because of traditions? State law WILL trump local city ordinances, as would Federal law trump state law. (Example, a documentary I watched recently on Calif allowing medicinal marijuana dispensaries, but the Feds kept busting the businesses.) What about painting a V-mask on the faces of each of the protestors?
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws To clear up any more questions on what is or isn't allowed. Again, the exact law in regards to the facial coverings/mask. As you can see, there are no loopholes. No exemptions. To show an example of one with exemptions: Same Law, West Virginia Style West Virginia has some provisions and exemptions added into theirs. It doesn't technically enforce what we're doing, nor does it help us, but it shows that other states have mask laws that have the ability to have some flexibility. Ours does not. In fact, neither of these laws have the provisions for wearing a typical Veil, so they're both not really open to religions freedom, if it were to be enforced fully. I just think that, with how things are currently, and with the WALLS OF TEXT proof you can make about Scientology's Fair Game, it's more dangerous to deny the right to mask than it is to allow it. If a properly worded and nicely done letter were harpooned to, say, State Legislatures or State House and Congress Representatives, we could perhaps have the law looked in to and set forth a precedent for all other states in the surrounding area to have their mask laws looked into or updated. Anyone willing to work with us on some kind of project like this? You can anonymously send this stuff in, right?
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws Oh, and SC also has the same exact laws as NC on this issue, as do plenty of other states. CND: State Codes Related To Wearing Masks
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws No, you did, that's my bad. Twas a long post, missed that part at the bottom.
Re: Possible Avenue For Anti-Mask Laws No, meaning I read that whole long-ass, awkwardly formatted, overly written post and SOMEHOW missed the ONE tiny sentence towards the end... ...you know...the one that comes after you said, "Okay, sorry for such a long and (probably) unreadable wall o' text..."? Long post is loooonnnnngg.... ;P
