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Pensions in Detroit

Discussion in 'Projects' started by Anonymous, Jul 30, 2013.

  1. Anonymous Member

    Hello people of Anonymous.

    I urge you to help me take action in Detroit. Our governor will soon be attempting to take the pensions of the city workers here in Detroit. These people have worke long and hard to earn these pensions and they are about to be taken from the workers in order to ignore a main cause if debt for the city. As well, the governor's rich friends are going to make millions off the city's bankruptcy, with laws having to be challenged and an EMF whose own law firm is presiding over the bankruptcy hearing. Please, I implore any Anon member in Michigan and the Midwest to take action an insure this does not happen by demonstrating outside the capital building and in the streets of Detroit on August 14, 2013.
  2. Howard Hunt Member

    You reep what you sew. You kept on electing the uber left insted of the center minded. Look around every fail city has been uber left for a long time. Im left of center,but dam man balance is needed.
  3. Anonymous Member

    To the best of my recollection, the unions endorsed the crimminal kwame. just sayin.
  4. Howard Hunt Member

  5. Anonymous Member

  6. Anonymous Member

    • Like Like x 1
  7. Anonymous Member

    While there may be disagreement over what the causes where, does anyone here agree that this plan has to be stopped?
  8. Anonymous Member

    Let's also not forget that these pensions have already been decreased.
  9. Anonymous Member

    Well, those who helped to elect those officials (namely the unions) have a lot of work to do.

    NYPA.
  10. Anonymous Member

    Detroit: What 50 Years of Democratic Party Rule Looks Like
  11. Anonymous Member

    NYPA? So tell me then, what is a valid concern for you? What do you want to see Anonymous do next?
  12. Anonymous Member

    It seems to me that this discussion is solely for assessing blame, not actually doing anything about it.
  13. Howard Hunt Member

    What can be done? It seems to me the money just isn't there.
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Anonymous Member

    This is a failure of politics. Politics destroyed Detroit. It can only be fixed by not-politics. But the politicians won't allow a non-political (ie: market based) solution
    Checkmate

    As for the pensioners, get used to it, This is the coming to your city in the near future. Pretty much every local, state and national government is bankrupt. They have been writing checks (pensions) they can't cash, and they know it. That means we will be seeing this many times over the coming years.

    This is what happens when you live beyond your means. The law of gravity enforces itself immediately. The laws of economics take time to work themselves out, but they are just as inexorable as gravity. Living beyond your means, even for governments, means disaster. And since this is the fucking national government, its actions will drag us all down.
    /rant
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Anonymous Member

    Unless people try to stop them from not paying back the employees. The money wasn't there when they borrowed so heavily, either. Should we let this just happen and act powerless, or should we hold the city and the EFM responsible?
  16. Anonymous Member

    ...and then what?

    They don't have money. What do you want to have happen? Hold them accountable for things that may not necessarily be their fault? Drag them out onto the street and horsewhip them till everybody feels better? Force companies into going back somewhere they have every right to avoid and may not have the workforce with the skills to fill these jobs?

    The problem is that Detroit has been going downhill since all the Auto plants left. Why they did is purely academic and serves no purpose in solving the problems. When they left, most of the workforce there were Union and their Union was the catalyst for the mass exodus of the Auto Industry. Being the dumbfucks Unions are, they chose to not allow non-union jobs in and not reeducate their Union workers because Union Members, even with unemployment checks, still pay their Union Tithes blissfully unaware they are contributing to the problem. So the Unions had no desire to fuck with a good thing. However, their shortsightedness and downright arrogance caused a hemorrhage in economic stability. While Unions kept nonunion players out, the city had to pay pensions to everybody got them but didn't have the money coming in, no fucking thanks to the Unions.

    In the end: Detroit playing nice to corrupt Unions has made the chickens come home to roost. The Auto industry would have stayed put had Unions not get their dicks mangled up over bullshit reasons and been flexible a little. Detroit would have had a better economic picture had the Unions been more flexible and allow Nonunion jobs to enter and retrain it's members or at least let them branch off a little to other job opportunities. Instead though, these Unions were almost cult like.

    Now, that isn't to say Unions have a valid place. Gov and businesses are just as bad. However, in this case the Unions have a very important part playing in this complete clusterfuck.

    The only real solution is to get jobs and industry back into Detroit. However, that maybe an uphill battle as long as Unions there refuse to be flexible or consider other alternatives than Industrial industry.

    TL;DR: Detroit can fuck off and go die. Serves them right for being so shortsighted. NYPA.
    • Like Like x 2
  17. tinfoilhatter Member

    Where was the cities comptroller? YOU guys elected HIM to take care of the pensions, so where is he? Oh well, i sure hope your union saved some money from the dues to go towards emergencies like this, rather than waste it gambling on politicians.

    Its funny, people bad mouth anonymous, then when life opens up a pack of suppositories, they all come running here begging for help. Detroit has a blighted building problem, yet never once did they offer people the land if they chose to pay to tear down one of the buildings, hell, they didn't even mention a discount. People fled because of the high taxes, yet they have made no significant effort to lower taxes and give people and incentive to return.

    here are some dox
    http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/07/detroit-taxes-and-the-laffer-curve.html
    http://www.freep.com/article/201306...-taxes-Kevyn-Orr-emergency-manager-bankruptcy

    only after Orr took over did any talk about lowering taxes get taken seriously. Its way too late, but whatever.


    then there is this:
    Alabama offered tax incentives to companies that wanted to settle there. FUCKING ALABAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now they have 3 car companies building parts in that state, AND airbus is building a plant there. Don't spout off the union bullshit about Alabama not having skilled labor, that airbus plant is close to Naval air academy Pensacola, and 2 air force bases, so they will be getting skilled veterans when they get out, ome of these veterans would have been from detroit, and would have had the ugly choice of having to stay in, or go back to Detroit.Now they can get out and get a job with the skills they have in a state that has MORE benefits for them. Detroit is getting what it deserves. We need to let it collapse, they dug this grave for themselves, and we need to send the message to the rest of the shit holes out there that they have to act with some sort of responsibility.
    • Like Like x 3
  18. Howard Hunt Member

  19. Anonymous Member

    No, they blew it on hookers and blow.

    Now they are wondering why they don't have the money for either.

    It's about par for the course around here. Every month WWP gets wannabe Internet Tough Guys and "Halp me with my cause!". Every month they get an emotionless bitch slap and a kick in the ass out the door.

    [quote="tinfoilhatter, post: 2341326, member: 86822"Detroit has a blighted building problem, yet never once did they offer people the land if they chose to pay to tear down one of the buildings, hell, they didn't even mention a discount. People fled because of the high taxes, yet they have made no significant effort to lower taxes and give people and incentive to return.

    here are some dox
    http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/07/detroit-taxes-and-the-laffer-curve.html
    http://www.freep.com/article/201306...-taxes-Kevyn-Orr-emergency-manager-bankruptcy

    only after Orr took over did any talk about lowering taxes get taken seriously. Its way too late, but whatever.[/quote]

    They got the blighted buildings because nobody was spending money on upkeep. They weren't spending money on upkeep because there wasn't any businesses coming into those buildings. Businesses weren't coming in because of high taxes thanks to the Union's strong arm tactics. Unions used strong arm tactics to get even more money from the Auto Industry. The Auto Industry leaves because they get sick of it and people get laid off. People get laid off get full retard pissed and blight the buildings even more...

    Long story short: When you (Detroit) put all your eggs in one basket (Auto and Manufacturing) and have a Fox (Unions) guard them, then you lose the right to bitch about the obvious outcome.

    [quote="tinfoilhatter, post: 2341326, member: 86822"then there is this:
    Alabama offered tax incentives to companies that wanted to settle there. FUCKING ALABAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now they have 3 car companies building parts in that state, AND airbus is building a plant there. Don't spout off the union bullshit about Alabama not having skilled labor, that airbus plant is close to Naval air academy Pensacola, and 2 air force bases, so they will be getting skilled veterans when they get out, ome of these veterans would have been from detroit, and would have had the ugly choice of having to stay in, or go back to Detroit.Now they can get out and get a job with the skills they have in a state that has MORE benefits for them. Detroit is getting what it deserves. We need to let it collapse, they dug this grave for themselves, and we need to send the message to the rest of the shit holes out there that they have to act with some sort of responsibility.[/quote]

    People are slow learners. When Detroit goes under, all the "rest of the shit holes" will just start the blame game based on political affiliation and not really pay any sort of attention to the real causes.
    • Like Like x 1
  20. demarquis Member

    Detroit. While I dont share the ragehate, and I dont agree that the people living there deserve what is happening to them, the problem is that it's probably too late to ask anyone around here to do anything. Maybe five years ago it might have been useful to expose the corruption, but now that ship has sailed. The pensions will be protected to the extent that they can be, but the money just isnt there. Reductions are inevitable. The real underlying problem is the loss of the tax revenue base, people ran, and now they have a city built for a million and a half with 600k living there. Too much infrastructure with too few people paying for it. Who is to blame is no longer the issue. The city will eventually save itself. All they have to do is write up a long term financial plan that demonstrates they know how to cut costs and manage their money, and they can restore their credit rating, borrow the funds they need at a lower rate of interest than they are now paying, and slowly return to solvency. As for the Governor and his plan, I would have preferred that the Emergency Manager had been selected by the legislature and not the executive, but that's a nitpick. Fact is, the city has to undergo some pain in order to restore the confidence of the external investor class. Sucks, but short of a radical transformation of American capitalism, I dont see another path to follow.
  21. Anonymous Member

    30 years ago. Sad, but IMO- true. So much corruption.
  22. Anonymous Member

    But why did they run? People don't just take off for no reason. What started teh exodus?
  23. commisiar Member

    racism, and manufacturing problems and political corruption, although this was helped by the Unions that are helping wall street slime ball banksters... The unions were shills for the few banksters whose creditors wanted to enter Detroit and take any money for what they owe unless they got this vital protection. Of course a few other cities are bankrupt as well because of wall street, the Unions who had helped wallstreet wanted to undercut the bankruptcy ruling. the detroit public unions are a front, their greedy fraudulant suckers like Goldman Sachs the vampire squid of the world in my opinion. Rule of advice OP never deal with wall street banksters unless their truly being honest and good...
  24. demarquis Member

    Combination of racism, riots against said racism, and the Japanese causing the collapse of the auto industry. The "unions" reponsibility for all this is mixed- they were never responsible for the poor strategic decisions made by the exec's, or their corruption, on the other hand it's pretty clear that they share the blame for the financial situation their finances are in.
  25. Anonymous Member

    The Japanese had better cars from the 1970s on. They had cars that consumers wanted, while Detroit was building gas hogs that were poorly made.

    So, try again, Japanese cars were a better deal for consumers. That doesn't collapse the industry, that forces it to play catch up.
  26. demarquis Member

    Whatev. My point was that the residents of the city had nothing to do with those mistakes.
  27. Anonymous Member

  28. Anonymous Member

    Seems the people of Detroit had a lot to do with what happened there. They voted for the politicians who created the policies.

    Or are you saying that the people had no control over the politicians who created the policies that helped bankrupt the city?
  29. Anonymous Member

    The goverment should have raised taxes while they could, but the political climate of the USA does not allow for that option. Well, the auto industry left town anyways for cheap labour south of the border.
  30. Anonymous Member

    This isn't rocket science.

    1. auto industry left town to pursue cheaper labour elsewhere
    2. unemployed people left Detroit
    3. dwindling tax base means less income for the city
    4. bankrupt city
  31. Anonymous Member

    u fergots the ????
  32. demarquis Member

    "Or are you saying that the people had no control over the politicians who created the policies that helped bankrupt the city?"

    Between no control and complete control there is "we voted for them because we citizens had no idea ourselves what to do about the Japanese cars, and what do city officials have to do with that anyway?" Do you expect the Mayor and the City Council to start designing econo-cars?

    "The goverment should have raised taxes while they could, but the political climate of the USA does not allow for that option. Well, the auto industry left town anyways for cheap labour south of the border." To be fair, city taxes were extremely high. Your point about the outsourcing is pretty accurate, though.

    "1. auto industry left town to pursue cheaper labour elsewhere
    2. unemployed people left Detroit
    3. dwindling tax base means less income for the city
    4. bankrupt city"

    Pretty correct, except that it was the employed people who left- the unemployed had no where else to go.
  33. Anonymous Member

    So, what you are saying is the Detroit priced itself out of the market by trying to raise wages above market level, which caused the auto companies to move.
    That is what is called a self inflicted wound.

    No company is going to abandon their factories just for cheaper labor. There are far too many other factors involved for that to be the reason. So try again.
  34. Anonymous Member

    You could say Detroit priced itself out of the market, or the Unions.

    Why would auto companies move their factories? I think labour cost is the biggest reason and maybe corporate tax incentives. Just look where the auto factories relocated - follow the money.
  35. Anonymous Member

    IOW, the unions priced themselves out of the market. That is just greed, pure and simple.The unions wanted more than they deserved, and the companies said no.
    As for the tax incentives, you are saying that taxes matter. I agree. Higher taxes lead people to move away from those areas.

    The Japanese have been building better cars since the 1970s, and the unions were unable to keep up with the competition. That is on Detroit and the unions for falling to keep up with progress
  36. Anonymous Member

    Not directly. People don't uproot themselves and their families to pay less tax. People go where there are jobs, better lifestyle, less crime, etc. I'm saying the companies left because of better tax incentives, taking the jobs with them. Companies will move factories our outsource when it is better for their bottom line.

    The auto companies couldn't compete with foreign cars in the 70s' and 80s' so they had to cut costs, which led them to move.
  37. demarquis Member

    You cant price yourself below living wage in the area where you live. The reason that foreign workers can charge less for their labor is that they are willing to work for subsistence wages in poor conditions, in a place where the cost of living is below that in the US.
    • Like Like x 1
  38. Anonymous Member

    Like 1980s' Japan? Or present-day Mexico and Alabama?
  39. demarquis Member

    Not sure what your point is. Japanese cars are on average more expensive than American ones with the same features.

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