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OWS and why I disagree.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Pencils, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. Anonymous Member

    oh yeah, of course - don't worry, I didn't misunderstand.

    My thought was that those countries which still have child labour are also those countries with an adhocrat-friendly lack of a welfare state, and that these facts are related.
  2. adhocrat Member

    If things had been different...yet it was at this very time that things were different, literally for the first time in 5000 years of history.
    Look at any graph showing longevity or wealth and be astounded at how, at about 1800 the lines start this amazing climb. That represents the greatest increase in human capital in all time. More people being born, living longer and living better.
    Hans Rosling http://www.gapminder.org/
    look at the infant mortality chart. Run it through time and see around 1880 as Pasteur's germ theory became known. IMR dropped like a stone.
    So we can see what happens when something changes dramatically.
    Ever ask what happened circa 1800 that made that change possible?
    Providing work for people willing to work is not wrong. Treating them as less than is. They were giving work, very dangerous work, but what is missing is that those children would have been doing equally dangerous work in places where people wouldn't see them except family. Since no one knew anything other than grinding poverty, any change from that (subsistence farming is a season to season crap shoot) is an improvement. The way you can tell what is important to a person is by what he did. If he took a job working a threading machine then consider how much worse his second best option must have been.

    And, as you pointed out, children were looked at differently then, more like Hubbard thought of kids than how you and I think of them.

    Government solutions are always violent.
    How is this any different than all of history, only now, there was a chance to change your status from peon or peasant to businessman or tradesmen.

    A lot of what you are objecting to is either reality (you have to work to eat) or government (drag you off to jail, or gaol)
    Nothing we can do about our body's need for food and if the family is living a subsistence level then every little bit helps.

    And as for debtor prison, well that's government solutions for you.
  3. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    Two things made this change:

    1) Technology advances required more people working.
    2) Medical advances made people live longer.

    Still, there is a lot that is different between then and now too. We abolished child labor. We established worker safety laws because it became apparent that healthy workers = more money in the long run. We established that slave labor is a detriment on human rights...

    ...of course it didn't happen all at once. It took many years and in some aspect still exist in certain parts of the world.

    There is a big difference between "providing work" and "forced labor". What was going on back then, people had two choices: Work or starve. If they had a fuckton of kids (because contraceptives and abortion didn't exactly exist back then) then that was a financial drain that could only be remedied by having the kids work. Otherwise they would have to ditch their kids at an orphanage which also had the same issue: Work or Starve.

    As for what their options are: If the poor guy didn't have land (and that would probably be a good bet they didn't) they can't farm. So that option is out. If the only thing they can physically or mentally do is X, then there isn't a Y choice.

    Yeah. Monarchy Governments are bad that way.

    Because now you are no longer bound by family name. Back then: Family name had more weight than it does now. So, for somebody who was born in a well to do family, they had no concerns because they had some kind of inheritance or some kind of sway so that they could also be better off. A poor family was disadvantaged from the get go. Basically: Born Poor, Die Poor.

    While an argument can be said it still happens now, it is not of the same level. A poor person can get aid from local, state, and federal governments to help go to college. Even universities can help a poor person via scholarships. The US even has ways to help the poor, granted whether that is good or not or effective is up for debate.

    However, back then and in those areas: There was no help. At all.

    Not sure what gaol is.

    There is no doubt that you have to work to eat. However: Having to have your significant other plus kids work for whatever low amount of money the bosses decide is a shitty way to do it.
  4. Anonymous Member

    Am I the only one who can't wait to hear adhocrat's theory?
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. adhocrat Member

    British spelling of jail.

    No one wants that. That should be obvious.
    Again, the children would have been doing backbreaking labor NO MATTER WHERE THEY WERE. The fact they did it in the same building made it that much easier to identify and empathize with.

    The Industrial revolution with those shitty jobs that look like slavery from 150 years later but to them looked like heaven sent opportunity. It was exactly those jobs that was something that had never happened in the history of the world.

    Literally. This was the first time in 100,000 years that we had a middle class. That meant the end of the serf/caste system, where people were bound to the land.
    Did this produce wrenching change?
    Hell, yeah.
    Did it produce a better standard of living?
    Hell yes.

    It is precisely because we invested in machinery that our standard of living went up.

    No one wants a society in which 6 year olds HAVE to work to eat.
    I want a Jetson's world, where the man of the house spends two hours pushing a button, talking about how hard he works and his family spends their day doing what pleases them.

    What's also pretty funny is, if you go to the main site for the Austrian style capitalists, you will find that they give away most of their books, videos and podcasts. You can get hard copies for a few bucks, but much of the content is free.

    How's that for a dog eat dog capitalist in action?


  6. Anonymous Member

    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Fucking totalitarianism-fetishising morons.
  8. How does someget to be as fuckign stupid as you folks are without forgetting how to breathe first?
    • Dumb Dumb x 1
  9. I don't know, because I'm not living proof that one can function without a brain like the Cato Institute people whose cocks you suck.
  10. anonymous612 Member

    Honey, can you learn how to proofread before you start bitching about stupidity?
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1

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