Discussion in 'Think Tank' started by Anonymous, May 6, 2013.
How to invigorate Men Against Rape groups?
It won't work unless the culture changes.
Think tank is a better place for this topic
One-on-one and group conversations have been the most powerful way I have seen to raise the awareness of men and bring them in as allies. Most men are well intentioned but do not know what to do, or perhaps are unaware of the scope of the problem faced by women.
A community listserv I am on recently had a discussion about rape culture and the relative safety of women vs men in our culture. It was started by a woman listing all of the steps she takes to keep herself safe when out in public. Many men were quite surprised to learn how bad it is and how much women do to stay safe. It started a great conversation which both men and women learned from.
The biggest challenge is avoiding the "blaming men" theme that tends to come up. A lot of men become hostile simply because they perceive that every time rape discussions happen they feel like they're being blamed. The right kind of dialogue avoids this, especially pointing out how "blaming the victim" type remarks are the biggest contributor to the problem. Point out how anything along the lines of "because of what she did, she got raped" basically translates to "Men have the natural state of rapist, so women have to be very careful to protect themselves and if they just didn't do stuff like that, they wouldn't get raped." Once you make that connection, it should become incredibly infuriating to every guy out there because I know that *MY* natural state is DEFINITELY not "rapist" and I'm not some hormone-crazed sex maniac who can't control myself.
On a side note, when Golda Meir was Prime Minister of Israel, there were a series of rapes that happened and she was asked to place a curfew into effect to help protect the women. Her response was: ""But it is the men who are attacking the women. If there is to be a curfew, let the men stay at home."
anonsoldier, thank you
Cross posted from General Discussion, but it's a video of a young woman, in response to the comments that Beyonce deserved to get slapped on the ass for what she was wearing, explaining how rape has nothing to do with what you're wearing. Please share.
Thank you, Anonsoldier. I will pass this along. What a brave young woman.
Men are 99.9% or more of the rapists in question, amirite?
Blaming the woman would make the "men" you describe feel better about themselves?
Pardon my choice of words, but fuck 'em.
Yeah, we should really safeguard "men's" feelings about this and speak to them gently.
In WHAT language does this translation occur?
My fellow men must be bloody daft, indeed. Not only this, but emotionally at the age-2 level, and way too insecure to even own a penis.
Dudeness, is your IQ in the double digits?
If any of this "infuriates" a man, he should get himself some qualified and professional anger management therapy.
You don't say what the outcome of that pronouncement by a Head of State was. Please indulge us.
Meir herself was under no threat of being raped, unless it was by her own husband (due to her security arrangements).
A Real Man
Neither men nor women are to blame for rape. RAPISTS are to blame for rape. If 99.9% of men were rapists, that'd be a different story. That's not the case.
Yes, you should take your target audience's feelings into account if you want to achieve something useful. I you want to stand on stage and scream at an audience of all men "RAPE IS BAD! Stop being rapists all you men!!" you're gonna achieve jack shit because the vast majority are going to think "Well I'm not a rapist, so I'm good to go" and tune out everything else you say. Maybe a select minority will go "yeah, rape is bad, I wonder what else I can do to fix the problem" but that's preaching to the choir so again you've achieved nothing.
She was asking for it, just look at her clothes=because of her clothes I couldn't not have sex with her=I had to have sex with her, even if she didn't want it, because of her clothes=I had to have sex with her, even if she didn't want it, and the only reason it happened was because of those clothes, I was just acting according to my default nature=my nature is to be a rapist.
If being told that your default state is that of a rapist doesn't make you mad, you probably need professional help or really ARE a rapist.
She was making a point in response to someone who said the women should be under curfew (blaming women), her response was to blame the men. She did not put out a curfew.
There, fixed that for ya.
The most important part of my response is telling you that yes, you need to take your target audience into consideration. We are trying to get people to change their behaviors and attitudes. You want to get people to stop blaming the victim, you need to point out every time they do that they're just saying men are rapists by default. Guess how quickly people will start to think about what they say. You want to get men to be cognizant of consent? You don't just stand there and scream at them and say its their fault and boo on men. That doesn't get shit done, people don't just grow up automatically aware of how this all works, it has to be taught and explained and since most of the time that doesn't happen growing up you have to get them to unlearn what they thought was right and understand how consent actually works so they understand that when they decide to "just go for it" and she says no but doesn't fight you, that is still wrong and it's rape.
But hey, you're just a "Real Man" who can't do anything but being a negative addition to the conversation and can't provide alternatives to anything I say other than to insult me. Go fuck off.
You missed anonsoldier's point entirely. We were talking about getting traction in "men vrs rape' and it is entirely appropriate to talk about what I/we should say and how. Explaining to men why slut-shaming is pro rape culture starts a behavior change, instead of talking about evil men, which men might take personally. Not what you want to do when persuading.
You are right in that we can't spend time worrying about "offending" men with a an anti rape message but painless persuasion works best.
Or something like that. Anyway, anonsoldier was making sense, I think you missed it.
spell check isn;t on btw.
The Goilda Meir quote flipped the whole 'women need to stay off the streets to be safe' argument in the western world.
I'm not sure if this is where I want to be. I love everyone of you you are my heroes my dreams and my angels sent from above. You answer my prayers. You have the courage to stand up where bo one has. You shed a light that everyone sees. The becon of hope for millions abused defiled and wronged. You create the safety and hope and you know not how important you are. In a society today you are the strength and comfort we so desperately seek. Youre efforts amaze me and instill my trust that there is more to love in life. Bless everyone one of you. May your efforts continue and hold fast. Thank you my heroes in masks. Your better than any super hero ever created. You fill my eyes with tears of joy my heart with love and my mind with peace. Please don't give up the fight. Whether man woman or child you're the light of blessing to make me feel whole again. I love you all.xoxo my heroes.
If you want to change the culture, then start with the prisons. It seems our penitentiary system is rape based, and not reform based. Apparently that's ok in our society. I think that a lot of men are against rape. I bring up prisons because men in prisons are raped. men can get raped. As anon soldier pointed out, we must avoid the blame game.Why not a new game, to replace the blame game, why not a vigilance game:
For example, if the parents of the stubenville fucktards had done their jobs as parents, and had supervised those parties(yes parental supervised parties are super lame, but fucking highschoolers do not deserve fun), then things might not have gotten so bad. I say might because we can do our best, but we can not 100% prevent tragedy. I do believe that at a supervised party, someone would have seen that the victim was passed out drunk(though i feel that she may have been rufied seeing as she was carried around like that) , and maybe called her parents, or sent her to the hospital.
this is vigilance, we need to understand that teenagers are not adults, that they are still developing, and that they still need supervision. I also have to pose a new question, was she the first victim of the football team? was she the only victim that night? the price of not having vigilance, is lifelong regret.
We will never give up. It's all about you. You are Why. Take care of yourself. <3
shit im keep fighting rape culture till the day i die
^^^ This is why
Please share this with everyone of you out there. I'm not sure if anyone has ever appreciated you efforts in all that you do. The case in Stubenville and Daisey ripped my heart out when I read about it in the news. These women will never be the same but luckily there are wonderful people like you who will challange the injustice that has prevailed them. Hopefully with your help they will have a piece of mind that someone somewhere out there cares and is willing to bring that injustice to lite. How these individuals get away and feel as though they did nothing wrong and live normal lives while someone suffers so deaply is incomprehensible at best. I know only too well the pain that these women feel. I was suprised that what I said earlier was seen and recognized. If I could have posted that for the entire world to see I would have. I as one person salute all your efforts and recognize you. I sleep better knowing that there are individuals like you that step forward and let the trash of society know that you will be brought to justice you will pay for your actions and you will not get away with it. You could be my neighbor my best friend my lover obrother I'd never know but just knowing your out there rectifying the wronged and fighting for awareness allows me personally to heal in a way that I haven't been able to in years. Its better than karma to those that hurt me and its better than wishing something evil on those that hurt others whatever the hurt is. If all society was more like you and not so corrupt life as we know it would be better.
I'm glad you are here.
I find it funny you guys think only women get raped. Men get raped to. Raising awareness of male rape victims could generate the traction that you need. It is easier to get people to support something that could potentially happen to them personally.
Absolutely true. Help make that happen. Male victims are less likely to come forward,. How can we make that change? Rape is not a male-female issue, it a crime of power and domination
Here are some links to some mail self help for mail survives.
A friend of mine was actually raped by a woman.
That phrase is enough to catch people off-guard. Usually, their reaction when he tells the story is "How!?". Other times, they just laugh at him, and say something off-color like "Well, did you like it?".
This particular friend was woken up in the middle of the night while staying in the spare bedroom at another friend's house. As you know, during the night men will periodically get an erection, as is natural for men. His friend's daughter had been spending a lot of time around him while he was over, making comments that had made him very uncomfortable, touching his arms and legs...etc. That night, she came into the spare bedroom, found him sleeping, with an erection, and took advantage of the situation.
Other than the obvious social problems that arise from having your friend's daughter waking you up by mounting your morning wood, he quickly found himself in legal trouble, as she was underage.
So...my friend spent a few years in jail because of this, and is on the sex offender's registry. He's practically phobic; won't even sleep at a house where an underage girl lives, afraid that the same scenario might play out twice.
But consider how difficult it would be to convince a jury in a proper trial that an underage girl snuck into your room and raped you in the middle of the night. They'll glare at you for even suggesting that this sort of thing could happen, and you'll likely receive a more severe punishment for it.
Rape is a complicated topic filled with social stigma.
Did you guys know that women can't be convicted of rape in the UK? Rape in the UK is only considered rape is unauthorized penetration of an orifice.
The laws states that : A person (A) commits an offense if—he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis, (C) A does not reasonably believe that B consents
See that “he” in there? That's the problem! There are to many double standers keeping men from talking about rape and how it affects them. Everyone is capable of rape. Male victims should be able to talk about it as a women dose. That is a human rights issue. Here is another thing to think about, can a lesbian rape another lesbian? Not under this law, so this doesn't just affect men ether.
Its been reported that more men than women are being raped in America. Most of them in the military and in prisons. Not a lot of people talk about this. Maybe society thinks people in prisons deserve it. Maybe society feels that male rape victims are week so they don’t like linking rape to the military. Society views need to change, Its still a human rights issue.
If you want men to take female rape victims seriously, Sociaty must first take male rape victims seriously. You need to provide a society a male victim can feel as important as a female victim. No matter who raped him
You're spot on with all the UK stuff. The law still doesn't fully cover all possibilities and needs to be expanded to include in the text the possibility that a woman can rape an individual. But considering that in 1978 a woman was sentenced to 12 months in prison for forcing a man to have sex with her, it's not impossible, especially considering the rules have been broadened several times since then.
That being said, what I quoted above basically says that men shouldn't have to address the issue that women get raped until society has addressed the issue that men get raped, and I think that's absolute balderdash. Considering the ratio of female victim rape (20% of the population) to male victim rape (5% of the population), I think we can go ahead and address female victim rape now while continuing to remember to remind society that men can be victims too. I don't mean to disenfranchise male victims, but when the other half has it 4 times as worse I think there is the clear problem. Making things better for women NOW will make things better for men, too.
I see your point,
But I really think that the way to get a men to focus on the cause is to take on the issue of male rape. Make men aware that rape is as much a thereat to them as it is to women. This is best way to get more men to care. This may not be a popular opinion, but it is the best way to get more men motivated..
That's fucked up in a number of ways.
For starters, it literally is not as much a threat to them as it is to women. It is in fact one fourth the threat to them as it is to women.
Second, men should be concerned with rape because it's wrong. If men are only concerned with rape because it may at some point affect them directly (not even indirectly, like a sister or friend who may be raped), that's incredibly selfish and horrible.
Finally, if it DOES need to be made personal, rape affects men even when they aren't the victim. Every time someone blames the victim, every time someone tries to make excuses for the rapist, the subtext is "all men are rapists" and "all men are incapable of controlling themselves". I don't know about you, but *I* am not a rapist. I don't enjoy being told that I am nothing more than a bunch of hormones. I do not like that women have to be afraid of me because society tells them that if they don't wear the right clothes, or say the wrong thing, or do any NUMBER of things wrong I am going to attack them. I think that should be enough motivation for a guy to get involved.
Ever dated a rape survivor? It's challenging in all kinds of ways. Even the resilient ones (male or female and I have dated both) have trust issues, especially around sex (DUH). But more than that, rape is WRONG. Why do people need to be engaged on the level of self-interest? I swear.
Thank you for your post. The excuses are the most infuriating to me, but it's all a big crock of steaming bullshit.
Why do men rape is the question we should be asking.
Rape is a crime of power, IDK if men have a need for power more that women do. I my experience PEOPLE want to be controlling
Rape should absolutely be of concern to everyone. Men are not immune.
Look, I really don't support rape in any way shape or form, but me thinks people are getting a tiny bit too emotional and are throwing the rational out the window when it comes to topics like this.
Like yourself the majority of decent folks don't support rape either.
The rape itself can be violent or non violent and in some cases over quite quickly.
Regardless of the duration, violence or any other factors it is a highly emotional issue.
Victims of rape can take years in some cases to recover. Fear, powerlessness and degradation are but some of the residue of rape.
I myself was a victim of rape, gang rape to be more accurate.
At the age of 24 I was living somewhere in Europe, and walking home one night from work I was hit on the head from behind and dragged into an estate car.
After several hours of violence and stuff I refuse to mention I was dumped in an alley and left for dead almost.
My attackers all 7 of them, laughed during the entire time, not a single one of them was man enough to call time on what was happening.
My hair was ripped out in large chunks, my left arm fractured in several places, thirty four cigarette burns from neck to knees, a dislocated eye socket, and serious head injuries to complete the list.
Plus the numerous bruises.
As an added bonus my internal injuries were so severe I cannot have children.
It's understandable to get emotional on this issue, but what remains is the fact that rape is , was and always will be used as a weapon to subdue and humiliate another human being.
I have no answers on how it can be stopped, there is no single answer.
A starting point would be education for both sexes , it can start in school and progress until the understanding of what rape is and the after effects too.
You are 100% correct, in a world where it seems impossible to turn this tide, education for both sexes is of paramount importance. How that is achieved is the question. I certainly believe that open passionate discussion, anywhere and everywhere it can be done, is a reasonable means of educating people.
Thank you for sharing your story, in doing so you show how resilient survivors can be.
Well said, and I am so sorry this happened to you. And very glad you're here. I think a lot of us are survivors. But not all.
And that gives me a lot of hope. I saw a lot of men at the rally for Daisy and that really made me hopeful.
I cannot agree more with your conclusions here. Thanks for fighting!
Thank you for taking the time to add your comments too.
We cannot let it define us, if we do it weakens us.
I stand by my thoughts on education on this subject, if it's started early enough there's hope.
It need not start as sex education, begin by teaching respect. If you learn to respect yourself , you will find yourself respecting others.
It's a simple enough lesson and can be understood by even the younger kids at school, but it must be ongoing and built on.
Small children understand fairness, and right and wrong. 96% of them, anyway. The other 4% are sociopathic but even they can be trained if you start young enough. A lot of it really is acculturation. I agree, training to treat others with respect as a human is important. They do this in kindergarten but it gets left by the wayside so many times.
I also think that the fact that this stuff can no longer be hidden is really powerful. Whenever the Steubenville or Maryville boys go to apply for a job, it will all easily be discovered with a quick google. Forever. That's probably a better deterrent than prison. Although it wouldn't help folks who got jumped, that is much less common than acquaintance rape. And we need to attack this on all fronts. Trying to find one true solution can slow down efforts to change things in present time.
Same soldier as the video above
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