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Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by Kha Khan, May 13, 2010.

  1. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    [IMG]
  2. RolandRB Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    This is the view I read that had been encoded into the American constitution. however, I do not have any docs to prove it if people ask. And I am comfortable with that. The beliefs can be crazy but so long as they don't do anything crazy, then that is OK. It may not be ideal in my mind because I think that crazy beliefs can lead to crazy actions if a religion is taken too seriously. So we are still on the subject of Xenophon, in case somebody else wants to give me another infraction.

    Senator Xenophon appears to be using the actions of Scientology to drive this thing forward. On the one hand this is fair enough. Where it goes wrong, in my opinion, is to push through a law on this basis. The reason I consider it to be wrong is that it is a law that potentially applies to other religions without addressing the actions of those other religions but only Scientology undermines the law that is trying to be introduced. Now this law looks like being passed I think that in order to help this law through then the actions of Scientology should be deemphised. In short, the inquiry into Scientology is best put on a back burner at this current time. And here is where Marty comes in. He is being condemned by all here without actually knowing what he has said to the politicians. He must have talked some powerful stuff because he got many people on his side. But without listening to his arguments, he is being universally condemned on this forum. To me, this is stupid and childish. I would prefer to hear this guy out before I make a decision and make a comment. It could be that he sees it the same way I do and wants the law to go through unsullied with anti-Scientology sentiment. The guy is able and persuasive and I respect him enough as an intellectual to want to hear his arguments. I don't think anyone here should condemn his actions if they don't know what his actions were all about.
  3. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Marty Rathbun isn't a politician. He knows nothing about australian politics and should STFU about things he has no clue about.
    He is in no position to give Senator Xenophon or anyone else any kind of political advice.

    It's not political suicide to piss on Scientology. As if anyone besides the handful of Scientologists in Australia would care that Senator Xenophon said that Scientology is not a religion. LOL
    It's only political suicide to piss on mainstream religions.
    Therefore it is better to keep the focus on Scientology.
  4. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    So I take it that means that nobody on WWP should talk about politics or talk to politicians?
  5. Random guy Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    But that is the beauty of it! If Xenphon manages to get the law through, a number of other small cultish groups will find out ther honeymoon is over. I think the reason a number of the politicians who opposed the initial inquiry now backed the proposal, is that the "Exclusive Bretheren" has been discussed in Australia since well before Chanology. Two flies in one swath and all that.

    In case you wonder, the Exclusive Bretheren practice disconnection too. I had a landlady once that was an X. It's about time they learn that being gods chosen people in their own mind is no excuse for fucking up people. Good law is good, Xenophon is doing this right.
  6. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    I'll go with Xenophon and the Ozfags, thanks. You can keep Mahty. Give him a nice stiff poke in the pooper for me.
  7. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Are you dumb by any chance? Those 'priceless art treasures' are a piece of their history as a religion, it's like taking everything you had as a child growing up and selling it all. Would you sell every part of your past until there is nothing left to remember it?
  8. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    r345709_1578005.jpg
  9. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    NICK IS SO HANDSOME.
    yay! Go nick!!
    • Like Like x 1
  10. auchraw Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    If you want to start another forum to protest against all religion as a fraud and a mind-fuck go ahead. I may agree with you but I won't join you. Got enough to do, and I enjoy watching my old church collapse for lack of interest. Not a thing I need to do to help it along.

    OTOH I am very considerably opposed to the freezone as just another manifestation of Hubbard's con. I don't distinguish between FZ Scientology and mainstream Scientology in terms of the harm they are capable of doing. Do Not Want.

    How do you work out when abuse is in proportion or out of proportion? Interesting point.
  11. Azazel Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Point out one instance that the Free Zone has harmed anyone, held them against their will, fair gamed anyone, or anything else along those lines?

    Some of the reasons why they are in the Free Zone is simply because of CoS doing those above things.

    Thank You

    :)
  12. Anonymous Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    ^Marty
  13. Azazel Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    To me Marty appears to be trying to make his own separate CoS / Cult following / Trying to take over CoS instead of truly being a Free Zoner. I don't think his actions are truly for the 'benefit' of anyone but Marty. It's akin to a child in a Tree House getting kicked out and him building his own Tree House to tempt those still in the old one to go to his instead. Another reason why I wouldn't consider him truly being a Free Zoner because he would do anything to achieve a goal at any expense, including the Free Zone.

    Of course these are all my opinions and thoughts. :)
  14. jensting Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    I think if we all sit around yelling at each other we will achieve so much more than if someone makes an FOIA request and gets the relevant government department to spill the beans.

    Carry on

    Best Regards

    Jens
  15. jensting Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    What law? All I've heard about is "legislation on the need for charities and religious organisations to meet a Public Benefit Test before receiving tax exempt status" (from press release quoted in http://forums.whyweprotest.net/318-...-says-yes-xenophon-inquiry-66534/#post1243681 ).

    I guess I haven't heard about the "ban scientology" law which you speak of, would you care to enlighten me?

    I agree that Senator Xenophon has talked about laws in France. I didn't think that France had a "ban scientology" law.

    And those are the only two choices? Either have a useless "ban scientology" law or have no inquiry at all?

    Best Regards

    Jens

    PS Yes, I agree that a "ban scientology" law would be useless.
  16. Lorelei Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    You probably wouldn't be surprised at the number of people who agree with much of that.

    I also see Marty as a victim, though his position of power apparently made him complicit in many of the worst abuses of the cult. That makes it harder to empathize, especially when he seems to pine for his glory days as one of the top dogs.
  17. grumpus Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    In order to practice Scientology you must embrace Suppressive Person Doctrine. You can't "audit" without it. 'Nuff said.
  18. chuckbeatty77 Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Mike Rinder was not a therapist.

    Marty was a late trained therapist, and did the therapy and supposedly fixed up messed up celebrities, like fixing up TC's "case" and so forth.

    Mike dearly supports Marty, they bond because they can cover each other's backs.

    Marty's taken on the practitioner role since leaving, patching people (ex members) up with Hubbard's therapy.

    Mike's an admin guy, admires and totally behind Marty.

    If you carefully read Marty's blog, which is tough, since it's so unreal for outsiders who aren't already into the brainwashing, you would see that Marty is sort of the top ego.

    That he at least allows some minor criticism of LRH, but then he gets cranky, and plays top dog, and shuts people out from his theme of "get DM", which like people posting on this thread really get it, it's more about Marty's and the core group of these independents' agreed upon agenda.

    I think you people who are NOT in any way associated with Scientology have the best insight into Marty's game.

    Marty doesn't realize just how bad Scientology's reputation is based solely on L. Ron Hubbard's ideas, and the public's rejection of Hubbard.

    Marty lived next to DM for over 20 years, he's got DM on his brain, and Marty's not up to seeing LRH in even as critical of a viewpoint as some of the earlier Sea Org vets like Ken Urquhart, who still is a pracitioner, but is a more realistic ex official Scientology practitioner compared to Marty.

    Mike isn't even a practitioner, and likely doesn't want to be a therapist practitioner.

    I hate the Scientology lingo, and think it best to use what the world understands of the practice.

    It's a therapy, and spiritual therapy, and science fiction spiritual therapy exorcism. Exorcism of the souls of long dead space aliens. And why it's mental, is because supposedly the craziness in the minds of all these dead souls that infest us, their mental garbage is what messes up human beings and makes he world so crazy.

    Any Scientologist, and Marty included, have to face laying out what Hubbard is saying in simple language, and facing the public reaction to what this Scientology therapy is all about.

    It's therapy for supposed soul improvement, and soul exorcism. Non peer reviewed, and if it were peer reviewed, it would never meet professional standards. How can you peer review space alien soul exorcism?

    It on its own, DM not even being in the picture at all, the subject, is going no where when it is impartially looked at.

    I was asked to read what you are posting, and you guys are posting some incredibly insightful observations.

    As a long term cult dupe, I've concluded that outside minds have the best understanding on the faults in the whole Scientology mess.

    The best us ex dupes can do is try to remember the grossest abuses and help get those abuses exposed as quickly as our cult brainwashed brains allow us.

    Chuck Beatty
  19. tikk Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Thanks for this post Chuck. It's been real interesting to watch Mike and Marty in this post-phase. I agree with the general assessment made by many others that Marty is positioning himself as DM's successor. Marty is attempting to walk a careful line where he criticizes DM while avoiding implicating the collective Church (as viewed by the IRS). But it's not easy to destroy the guy sitting on the throne while leaving the throne intact. And I believe Marty has the goods to obliterate both, but chooses not to. I'm not suggesting his beliefs aren't sincere. But it's frustrating because Marty was as well-positioned as anyone to undo the Church of Scientology.
  20. RightOn Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    a pleasure to hear from you Chuck.
    I hope your post encourages other ex's to speak up
  21. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    That's not the only careful line. If pushed to the brink, Davie would have to weigh the (huge) risks vs. benefits of Marty's permanent silence.

    Marty (as always) has to be very careful in what he trickles out. It doesn't do him any good to say where the bodies are buried if he helped bury them. I also assume that Davie also has enough goods on Marty to obliterate him as well. (Some of it self-incriminating, of course.) I can't see Miscavige quietly disappearing into the night without launching some of that.

    The lovely part is that there probably isn't a safe way for them to disengage from their Mutual Assured Destruction, short of one of them arranging to turn state's evidence or a "here's 80 million, go away" agreement.

    And while their doomsday clock gets closer to midnight, people and events that neither of them control continue to unfold.
  22. chuckbeatty77 Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    I noticed Marty has periodically stated some new layout of his plans will become public, so we'll see.

    I point blank on his blog challenged him stating Hubbard would NOT approve the whole splintering trend, since NOTHING in Hubbard's final years of private despatch traffic in the least approved of any splintering.

    I challenged him saying that LRH would NOT throw the Sea Org out.

    Marty bull headedly claims to be thinking as the supreme arbiter of LRH's viewpoint, and claims that LRH would ALSO just throw out the Sea Org management, and start something from scratch.

    THAT thread where Marty answers my blast at him, I claiming to speak for LRH administratively, and Marty countering claiming to speak for LRH, is important to understand.

    Marty thinks he speaks best for what LRH would do today.

    THIS IS THE CUTTING EDGE OF THE SCIENTOLOGY FUTURE.

    Who speaks for LRH today. Marty being so close to top power of official Scientology, I think he feels having been so close to top power, and viewing how people so appreciate his comments and history and so forth he's revealing, I think there's a group coalescing around a leader thing that goes on, and realize the people who were in Scientology already are all been/there--done/that on putting their faith in a leader---Hubbard.

    Independent NON Scientolgoy citizens NOT into a guru/cult leader, wouldn't ever go that direction, it's not in their nature.


    When any of us "expert" ex admin members try to speak for LRH, Marty will shoot us down, and if you read why he does this, it is due to Marty drawing on Hubbard's earlier writings, PRIOR to Hubbard's "natural" progression to put into Hubbard's administrative structures the hierarchical positions and policies to try to give Hubbard's whole setup direction and longevity.

    I could go on for pages, taking on in ultra devil advocate's role, and blast Marty to smithereens, using Hubbard's vast administrative writings.

    How to impact the movement, I'd gladly chat with anyone on this, live, on the phone.

    There is a completely UN appreciated sub niche intellectual battle, and unofficial "theology" (I include Hubbard's administrative orders/policies for running the movement as integral to the "theology" practice of the whole movement) battle going on, in the discussions, if you know the Hubbard policy, you would see the battle.

    Marty, I feel, will simply be overwhelmed by Hubbard's writings themselves.

    I believe the Hubbard cannon will be Marty's undoings, he cannot dodge what Hubbard wrote, which condemns Marty and any splinter movements against the mainline.

    Despite the last 3 decades of official movement NOT following Hubbard's administrative cannon policies, those policies ARE Scientology.

    Hubbard is Scientology.

    Whomever fights one against the other for domination in the movement leadership positions will still, and ALWAYS, have to answer to the "scriptures", the actual Hubbard writings.

    Which is another reason I try to work with scholars, since in the end of the day, the experts on Hubbard's policy scriptures will have the "upper hand" since Hubbard PUT the "upper hand" in the hands of whichever Scientology leader BEST executes Hubbard's policies to make the movement a success.

    Marty will lose to LRH. Even if he beats DM.

    If Marty longer range derails DM, he still is not likely to crack the books, and honestly become a top notch administrator.

    Remember he was NOT an administrator, he wasn't a Programs Chief, he wasn't a WDC Member, he didn't compile strategy for the movement's sectors. I could detail how he's really only an elite legal fixer and fire putter outer of "flaps".

    His personality, as seen on his site, also shows he isn't humble enough to even get what I am saying here.

    He will have to answer to the outside world's rejection of Hubbard.

    The only way he could do that is read a hell of a lot more.

    A LOT more.

    He should go right through the full list of the critical books, understand the valid complaints against Hubbard, and study scholarly books and papers about new religions, how they succeed.

    Scientology is not succeeding for real.

    Scientology has had the Achilles Heal of it's confidential "body thetans"/Xenu science fiction explanation for mankind's mental problems and world craziness, which Hubbard "discovered" and that discovery is now publicly known about. Hubbard would have had to deal with this leaking so widely into the public domain of the Scientology "body thetans"/xenu/exorcism of souls science fiction therapy.

    Scientology is a modern UFO cult variety.

    Marty should read a LOT more, is all I would advise him.

    I'd say intuitively, outsiders who are NOT Scientlogists don't have to read quite so much, since they aren't so brainwashed with the positives in Hubbard's writings, so outsiders see the glaring unusual strangenesses of Scientology that the members have been slowly lead to NOT see as unusual and obviously ludicrously illogical.

    Marty I think he just wants what's best for the group of faithful Scientology Hubbard practitioners who think the spiritual therapy is beneficial, they don't even just have this as an opinion, they are totally certain that the spiritual therapy is beneficial, and new religion scholars have to take these Scientology practitioners at face value and accept that these Scientology practitioners claims about receiving benefits from Scientology spiritual therapy.

    But I think a summarizing of the terminology, bringing Scientology BACK to what it is, despite Hubbard's massive redefinition of his methods, back to therapy, and NOT use "auditing", not use "technology".

    A few key words I believe throw off the outside world, into granting legitimacy to Hubbard's claims. His claims are false.

    Scientology IS therapy. Soul therapy. Soul exorcism therapy. Science fiction soul exorcism therapy.

    Marty I think is fumbling around, settled somewhat of just helping set up a new framework that lets maximum number of interested Scientologists to work together to do the spiritual therapy on each other, and I think he is NOT interested in taking back over the authoritarian setups of the Sea Org.

    I think Hubbard would NOT throw out the authoritarian options of the Sea Org.

    Marty I do believe, is planning to throw out the authoritarian options of the Sea Org, and do something that allows Scientologists do the spiritual therapy on each other, and NOT rip each other off, NOT get into the whole OSA game or ethics/justice/disconnection CRAP on each other.

    I'm pretty sure this is where Marty's headed.

    Chuck Beatty
    412-260-1170 Pittsburgh.
    I'll chat with anyone on the phone on weekends, and from 9pm to 10pm weekdays, east coast time.
  23. theLastAnon Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    It's always important to remember that Scientology itself includes the policy bulletins and admin orders as part of the "scriptures."

    And therein lies the heart of the problem when saying "I protest the behavior and abuses (or criminal acts) of the Church of Scientology, not what a Scientologist wants to believe."

    O rly? Cause a great deal of that behavior and those abuses and criminal acts are done by people doing what they believe their "scriptures" direct them to do in one policy letter or bulletin after another.

    Where is that line drawn? If I think HCO PL 23 DEC 1965 (Ethics, Suppressive Acts, Supression of Scientology and Scientologists, The Fair Game Law) is complete bullshit from a paranoid madman, am I a religious bigot out committing hate crimes? I'd like to believe that's not the case.

    It's clear that Marty is simply attempting to ignore that discussion and its implications altogether rather than address it because as Chuck noted, it's an argument that will inhibit his efforts whatever they may be. (recognizing this as my own opinion and speculation.)

    /derail
  24. chuckbeatty77 Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Agreed.

    Marty should just have privately offer his opinion to Senator Xenophon, whom I'm sure would have been happy to discuss what Marty wished to say.

    Internet blogging I think might be getting to his head. Being DM's right hand man so many years certainly got to his head.

    I think he should absolutely start reading, and really understand ALL of the valid objections to Scientology.
  25. pedrofcuk Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Amy Scobee's book, page 140, paragraph 3 reads...

    "It has since come to light that incriminating evidence against the church was destroyed prior to the case going to trial by former RTC staff member, Marty Rathbun, who spoke out on the matter to the St. Petersburg Times in June 2009."

    This is a criminal offence, pucker up Marty! Your cell awaits.
  26. Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    While I understand your point theLastAnon, for me that line is very easy to find. Belief does not equal action. I agree the 'scriptures' may require a particular action within the confines of the 'church', but none-the-less if the adherent never acted upon those beliefs then I have no argument with the believer. Though I reserve the right to the opinion that they may be crazy or delusional ;)

    It's only when the beliefs lead to illegal/abusive action that the line is crossed.

    I can believe all I want that the legal speed limits on the highways are too low, but it's only when I actually take the step to put that belief into action and drive above the speed limit that my behaviour becomes illegal.

    And so as to not continue derailing this thread...one comment about Marty and his blog: He needs to act the Big Man and specifically to appear as that to his flock. One way to get a comment into his blog is to suck it up and reinforce his delusion...it buys one some leeway in content imho.
  27. Random guy Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Anyone at the cults helm will have that problem now. The cat will not go back in the sack. No matter how reasonable or likeable, the leader will appear a madman or a conman, dependent on whether he want to play with open or hidden cards.

    While Anonymous now mostly play up the dangerous sides of the cult, the abuse, the bigotry, the hidden agendas, I think we should always keep a stack of LOL XENU-material at hand. Their own beliefs is the best inoculation we could ever wish for.
  28. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Not exactly hot news. Statute of Limitations.
    And by "technical crime" he mean a crime against the Holy Tech, not those silly wog laws.
  29. Kha Khan Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    The latest -- The Underground KSW Alliance:
  30. Random guy Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Would you be so kind as to translate, Kha Khan?
  31. chuckbeatty77 Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Also realize that a group that denounces psychiatry so heavily, they themselves they have a better answer to mankind's craziness, and their explanation is that our minds are getting leaked this craziness from the dead alien souls that infest our bodies and leak their craziness into our heads.

    So, again, the Scientology never to be accepted seriously mental health explanation for people's craziness is the dead alien souls who are crazy theory!

    The Scientology anti psychiatry stance and overkill denouncements against psychiatry makes ME think of L. Ron Hubbard's ideas of what makes mankind crazy.

    Dead alien souls who leak their mental garbage supposedly into our heads, is the Hubbard theory. "Body thetans" are the dead alien souls. Xenu is just the guy who murdered the alien humanoids causing this surplus of these dead alien souls that supposedly infest all human beings today.

    That Hubbard theory is not ever going to win worldwide support, and it is relevant to contrast with Scientology's efforts to win take over and replace the field of mental health, which is one of their goals.

    Chuck
  32. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Mahty needs some pretty graphics showing booming "Indie" orgs and skyrocketing "Indie" stats to go with all of his vague, "theta" pseudo-announcements. Then he should get a nice podium and a photo of LRH to hang on the wall behind him, off to one side, for everyone to "hip hip hooray" at on cue, like the trained seals they are.

    What a cheese.
  33. tikk Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    I agree that one concern of Marty is his own liability, but I think you overestimate the potential interest of law enforcement. I believe only dozens of literally dead bodies--not metaphorical ones--would trigger interest at this point. Likewise, the IRS is firmly in Scientology's corner and only a court is going to change that.

    Marty is far less concerned about mutually assured destruction because DM is the only player with marbles to lose, at the moment--DM has strong disincentives to attack Marty with respect to "Scientology crimes," which Marty doesn't fully share. As seems to be the case, Marty would like to tear down DM while keeping the institution intact, like a neutron bomb. Whether that's possible seems somewhat dubious because DM is the Church of Scientology; even imagining a successor scenario is difficult, but especially so if the successor were an outsider, like Marty is at present. If it is Marty's goal to take over the Church of Scientology, I think we'll see him take greater risks down the road when he realizes that attacking DM has no real affect other than to drum up bad PR and piss DM off.

    I agree with the general notion that Scientology is poisoned by Hubbard and that there exists a causal nexus of inevitability between Scientology beliefs and actions. But in the US at least, that argument can't be made--the courts and the law can only respond to actions, not beliefs. So while I acknowledge the validity of those criticisms, it's a fruitless avenue so far as ultimately undoing the CoS is concerned.
  34. mirror neuron Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Yes.
  35. RolandRB Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Are you quoting me with this "ban scientology" law? I don't see it in my posts. The law I am refering to is the one that might be passed that creates a public benefits test as to whether an organisation is granted tax exempt status or not. This is what we have in the UK already and with a mutual arrangement with South Australia to accept charitable status if granted in the other state then Australia should come up to the same standard as the UK. Once this is done then we can take it from there. We just need the law to be passed. COSRECI's moment will come.
  36. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Marty's insurance policy would be to have a large file of exactly where the bodies are buried and to let Davie know what will happen if he is found attached to a concrete block at the bottom of a swimming pool.

    Quite possibly law enforcement couldn't be bothered to look into it, but there's a chance that they might.
  37. chuckbeatty77 Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Hi tikk,

    Marty does NOT think the Sea Org admin structures are even what LRH would want to succeed.

    He bluntly stated on the blog in answer to my challenge to him, me saying LRH would absolutely NOT throw out the Sea Org, he responded in his opinion YES, LRH would start over from scratch.

    Marty is NOT wishing to go back and take over, he is NOT a management terminal.

    Like I recently said I think on this thread, he is an elite gofer and trouble shooter for DM and the church's highest level flaps for the last couple decades, and then in the early nineties, he "found religion" when he bargained with DM that the only way he'd come back after blowing, was getting the chance to do the tech (religion which is the spiritual therapy, the soul improvement and soul exorcism therapy, which is what the core of the "religious" practice of Scientology is).

    Marty is similar to another top player, Ken Urquhart. Ken used to be LRH's Personal Communicator.

    Like Marty, Ken was finally busted for disloyalty to LRH, Ken supposedly wouldn't sign a Sea Org contract and Ken supposedly did NOT want to follow LRH to La Qunita. He was considered disloyal, and busted and became a tech (he "found religion" and became a therapist in NOTs, OT 5, and then from that left the Sea Org, forget the details how he finally left, but it was after he "found religion" and finally ALSO, like Marty, in the tail end of a top top level "administrative" hot seat career, he shifted to the "tech" ("religion" of Scientology) finally.

    This is typical of long term "admin" top level people. Some always dreamed of just doing the religious practice, and that sets sort of a new goal in their lives.

    Marty is like Ken Urquhart, Ken has for the past 25 years been a practicing ex official Scientologist.

    If you study the actual details and history of the whole long exit patterns of the true true top hot seat position people, like Ken, and now Marty, Marty is more the leader type, since he was such a top player under DM for so many years, and he answered only to DM. Ken answered only to LRH, and at the end of his LRH Pers Comm career, is when the CMO became more powerful and began pushing their weight around, which was troublesome to the admin top notchers who worked directly to LRH and who answered to LRH.

    So Ken and Marty aren't idential, just sort of like a rhyming of history, like some famous person says about how history doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes.

    Marty's the top admin person, who in his busted period (after he blew, came back, in 1993, Marty, remember had the year off, and went into the religion of Scientology, the spiritual therapy, and you read his blog self history, and us who KNOW the gig, we know what the hell he "found", which is he finally, to his mind, found what Scientology was really all about.

    He is mentally against the admin hardball crap, and he's come through the initial stage of admitting guilt as sort of the elite "fixer" he called himself on the St. Pete Times interview.

    Marty was "fixer". He was NOT manager. He is NOT comparable in management skill to a dozen of the people post on his blog, namely those ex Int Base staffers who WERE actual "Programs Chiefs" "Evaluators" "Watchdog Committee Members" and "Exec Strata" executives.

    Marty doesn't have admin manager track. He had elite, rubbing elbows with the top tyrant, legal overseer, dirty tricks against enemies overseer, and for a few years IG Ethics and IG (Inspetor General) which is NOT management, it is again overseer.

    Now, all this said as background, Marty is NOT even on top of what LRH said to the management, so he does NOT even know what LRH said. He is NOT versed in LRH's management final solutions for running the movement.

    LIke I said in this thread, Marty had DM on Marty's brain.

    Marty does NOT have the LRH scriptures for the running of the movement on his brain.

    In my opinion, he is NOT even competent, until he does some study of what I've suggested scholars study, to see in full what it is that Hubbard wrote, for the movement managers, for how the movement managers should procede with running the movement.

    It's all way above people's tolerance levels, and thus it is probably a few years before papers and summaries of what LRH wrote he wanted the managers to do with the running of the movement.

    LRH did NOT, repeat NOT, state DM be the leader of running the movement.

    Again, getting this point across, when I retire, if the regular movement is still standing (like I predict it will be, despite ALL of the shit hitting the fan, and even if Marty, Mike Rinder, David Miscavige all end up in jail, and all likely, like you say will not), I predict unfortunately that the points I have been making, I will just have do the dull summary papers making my point.

    The admin structures and voluminous orders/policies from Hubbard on how Scientology was to proceed after his death, is still very much part of the Scientology "bible" even though David Miscavige has veered OFF of that portion of the Hubbard' "bible."

    Marty is clearly saying, on his blog, if you dig what he's saying, he's clearling saying that that whole section of Hubbard's policy direction is a bust, and it's been made so much of a mess by Miscavige, that the end scene today, which he is clamoring must be faced, he's racing ahead in his mind thinking the church is dead.

    But those of us who WERE steeped in the part of the Hubbard volumunious "bible" scriptures for the managing ideal scene for the movement, we who lived and died by being beaten over the head for following his management orders to the letter (until the last couple decades when DM started running roughshod all OVER the place in violation of those management policies, again DM doing this, is part of my criticism of Marty, he's NOT familiar with the management ideal scene of the movement, he was Mr. Fixer, having fun dealing dirty deeds on Scientology's enemies).

    I am just trying to bring Marty down to size.

    He is NOT what LRH wanted to run the movement.

    LRH wanted the group called International Management to run the movement, and International Management is Watchdog Committee (which is made up of top Commodore's Messengers and the rank and file Commodories Messengers are the execution arm of the Watchdog Commitee) and the other major part of International Management is the Exec Strata which was to be the "think tank" of the movement (as a sidenote, my greatest goal which I never achieved in the movement, was to become a part of the Exec Strata, since my forte is my expertise in the admin rules of the movement, its history, and I fully supported helping make the "think tank" members who were to be the brains for the whole wealth of the Hubbard administrative scriptures of the movement.

    SO, Marty, while he's capable, and likely might have made a good Watchdog Committee Member, and another whole dull historical important factor is the "pecking order" of people that Hubbard left in a trail behind himself.

    Understanding the lure of moving up that pecking order and being closer to Hubbard, is a seperate and important factor in this whole top echelon pecking order king of the mountain game, and also in the picking of who would go up to help LRH and be in that top trail of people just below him.

    Marty was in ASI, then moved, with DM, with Greg Wilhere, with others, over to RTC in the late 1980s.

    ASI was just one almost tippy top trail of the people who were lured up to be NEAREST Hubbard in his final years. The actual tippy top trail of people who were nearest Hubbard, of course were Pat and Annie Broeker. Then the Creston ranch staff. Then came ASI, and ASI in the 1980s is where DM moved up from CMO Int, DM's rise and then the formation of ASI, the ASI people starting in the early 80s, including Marty, were the top trail of people leading up and just below LRH. CMO Messengers at the Int Base received LRH's final despatch traffic. And ASI in LA received a shitload of LRH's traffic. DM was at ASI, but he was ALSO over all of the Int Base, then called Int/S, or something.

    Anyways, this is way too much info, I realize.

    I'll have to go research all this and make the full case for what I am arguing, when I retire, if it is relevant, and if the movement is still standing (which as you know, that's my prediciton, due to me being the complete nerd administrative dupe "expert" type on the movement's last couple of decades history, and I think I am the only damn person beating the drum for WHY I think this damn operation is going to go on, unfortunately, despite ALL people's best efforts to tank it).

    I believe in the end, even Marty, will be doing battle against Hubbard. Hubbard in the form of Hubbard's voluminous administrative writings which keep the Sea Org members noses to the grindstone sucking up and following autopilot style LRH's orders and policies on how to proceed, even though DM is cross ordering and making serious mistakes in executing, and even DM being the one man band at the top and kicking all his competitors OUT of the picture, I know that when DM is gone, the system will correct itself and the members will get back to following the admin scriptures/"bible" writings of Hubbard that tell them in nauseating detail what to do.

    Sorry to be so long winded, but my arguments should be laid out in a books, and if needed, in 8 years, when I finally retire, and I can write full time, and if the Scientology establishment is still standing, then I will expand on what I say here.

    Marty's NOT a manager, doesn't have management desires to run the movement, even though he could. But he's NOT EVEN aware enough of Hubbard's admin writings sufficiently to KNOW that LRH did NOT want a DM to be running the movement one man band style EITHER.

    Hubbard wanted International Management to be running the church hierarchies. And International Management is Watchdog Committee and the Executive Strata (think tank body).

    That Marty hasn't even stated this, is part of Marty's own "case", his having, in my opinion, too much DM on his brain, and not enough (I mean this only in the ultra devil's advocate meaning) LRH "bible" (the admin top echelon managing "bible" policies) on his mind. He's into thinking the DM role and a lot of other Scientologists who think that having a single leader IS the way LRH wanted it.

    The "gang of 5" who wrote the history of DM on Steve Hall's blog (scientology-cult blog), read that sometime. One of those 5 told me that DM created this Chairman of the Board power position. LRH did NOT create a person to be the sole top dog. The top dog role is DM's creation entirely.

    That is the fallacy, there should be no Chairman of the Board, per Hubbard. Marty should just state this himself, and for whatever the reason, my opinion is that Marty is insufficiently reflective and informed on LRH's administrative writings to KNOW what LRH wanted and that LRH did NOT want a one man band at the top, but Marty sort of skidded along as top elite fixer, like Marty says in the St. Pete times interviews. He was toplevel fixer man.

    There's the COmmanding Officer of CMO Int, who is also doing duty as the Watchdog Committee Chairman, and then there is the Executive Director International, who is the boss of the Exec Strata think tank. Those two groups are the "bosses" and the are supposed to "coordinate" the running of the whole movement.

    So in truth, that is what should have happened. NOT the David Miscavige/Joe Stalin trip that's been run on the members.

    I grant, even after all the above, and you know, we've talked many a time face to face, I don't think even the best of the movement is sane or rational, it is ALL spiced to the gills with Hubbard's irrationalities, so even if the more possible chaotic and possibly more benigh "coordinating committee" top managing of the movement, there of course would be the horrendous application of all of Hubbard's myriad sub echelon structures, which are streamlined currently to inflict the MOST abuse on the members.

    SO whether its a committee of these two top groups that WERE to run the movement, or it's the existing scene of tyrant sociopath David Miscavige, I also believe that Marty has some inkling that the whole management "bible" of Hubbard's should be quietly let fall apart.

    THAT I think is truly Marty's mindset. He's see how Miscavige does NOT work, but he also thinks that even in the best case scenario of the management bodies doing MORE like Hubbard wanted, that both choices, in his opinion, are NOT what LRH would do.

    He feels, probably wrongly, but as a freer thinking ex complete top player and observer of the real top level stuff of SCientology these last almost 30 years) he's concluded that were Hubbard here to see the current mess, Marty thinks that Hubbard would just let the whole structure mess fall apart, and he's headed for just a new looser setup, made up of the people who want Scientology spirtiual therapy (remember my argument that he "found religion" after his burnout blowout bust in the end of 1993, read his description of that part of his history), and Marty's a Scientology therapy man, and wants THAT to still happen.

    I have the dismal prediction that Hubbard's writings are the world's albatross. Those writings will lure people into retaining the mess, despite all of these past 3 years of NOT doing what Hubbard said to do per his admin scriptures.

    I think his writings will prevail upon those that are suckered into them. It is camel nose in the tent.

    I don't recommend burning Hubbard's writings, but exposing them in detail. That might be irrelevent one the Xenu/body thetans/body thetans clusters theory becomes household knowledge around the world, (my pet undercutting goal is making body thetans household understood in layman's terms so the spiritual theory of Scientology, so I'm a spread the Xenu and body thetans man myself).

    I plan to spend the rest of my life exposing the admin details, and particularly if I am correct, and 8 years from now, the movement has weathered ALL of these recent years hits at it. (In 8 years when I retire and can write full time, I'll write about the admin crap's influence on things, which I think in the end of the day, the Hubbard admin albatross writings are followers' biggest problem.)

    Marty's going to set up a glorified free zone operation to pull all the Scientologists who just want the spiritual tech and don't want all the BS they are getting from current Scientology.

    His operation would dry up, though, were official Scientology to lighten up significantly, which longer range is an inevitability.

    More Xenu and body thetans and body thetans clusters, and Xenu the alien humanoid murderer and bad person who caused the 4th dynamic engram, and the Wall of Fire 75 million years ago, and inplanted the billions of alien souls with the R6 implant of crazy ideas to the extreme, and all those alien souls infest us all unbenownst to us, and only Scientology's "upper levels" (OT 3, 4, 5 6 and 7) can we rid these "body thetans" (alien souls) from ourselves and thus relieve humankind of the "4th Dynamic Engram."

    Chuck
    412-260-1170
  38. tikk Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    I don't disagree with you Chuck, nor do I have the expertise to do so, with regard to your interpretation of Marty's posts, which will obviously set off different flags and alarms in you than me. But regardless of Marty's non-desire to become a "management teriminal," or that he views his career as having transcended the admin structure and hierarchy, the fact remains that the series of corporations that comprise the Church of Scientology--the institution--is (a) the only game in town; and (b) stocked full of members.

    Whoever controls the institution controls how Scientology is delivered and interpreted. What the institution has become and what it could become are two separate concepts. The power that goes along with running the institution is real--the riches amassed by the institution under DM are not DMs to keep if he was somehow dislodged from his position; they would effectively belong to a successor for the successor's tenure. These are alluring features which Marty's ego likely has no problem justifying could and should be his. I also believe Marty is capable of re-imagining the institution to comport with his preferences and vision. He doesn't have to run the institution like DM in order to run it--he could delegate Admin functions and become more of a "spiritual" figurehead.
  39. AnonLover Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    Thank you for these fabulous insights Chuck. NOT too much info, I feel like I've been schooled and I'm left wanting more.

    I tend to agree with you that the movement will still be around for some years to come albeit I suspect/hope it will be in a vastly damaged state from where it is right now.

    But your contributions after you retire could potentially be a deadly blow and I look forward to reading it someday. And here's hoping that the combined forces of Anon and Exes leaves the beast in such a decapitated state by that point in time, that you'll only need to leverage one blow to make a huge impact & can then enjoy the rest of your retirement knowing the albatross is bleeding out its dieing gasps.
  40. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: Marty's Role in Trying to Stop the Australian Inquiry.

    lrn2sklar?

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