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Marty leaving Ingleside on the Bay (IOB) Texas

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by Anonymous, Nov 30, 2012.

  1. anonymous612 Member

    This is all well and good, but while you guys are debating semantics and abstract hypotheticals, try not to forget to actually protest, k?
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  2. Xenu Is Lord Member

    The Ballad of Brave Sir Marty

    Bravely bold Sir Marty rode forth from Casablanca.
    He was not afraid to die, O brave Sir Marty!
    He was not at all afraid to be killed in nasty ways,
    Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Marty!
    He was not in the least bit scared to be mashed into a pulp,
    Or to have his eyes gouged out, and his elbows broken;
    To have his kneecaps split, and his body burned away;
    And his limbs all hacked and mangled, brave Sir Marty!
    His head smashed in and his heart cut out
    And his liver removed and his bowels unplugged
    And his nostrils raped and his bottom burned off

    Then came the Squirrel Busters

    Brave Sir Marty ran away.
    Bravely ran away, away!
    When danger reared its ugly head,
    He bravely turned his tail and fled.
    Yes, brave Sir Marty turned about
    and gallantly he chickened out.
    Bravely taking to his feet
    He is packing it in and packing it up
    And sneaking away and buggering up
    And chickening out and pissing off home,
    Yes, bravely he is throwing in the sponge...
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  3. Anonymous Member

    Hey I thought this was the"Marty is leaving Ingleside on the bay" thread? Grebe,Ricky,Death,,,,,,,,,,get a thread!
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  4. grebe Member

    Ahem. The school libraries stuff is off topic. But that is not me.
  5. Anonymous Member

    O HAI OSA! Tommy's replacemnt?
  6. grebe Member

    I know, right?

    But I think Scientologists might actually believe that, cuz they don't understand that a lot of stuff they do is wrong. For example, what they did to AnonSparrow. I think a lot of them view that as fighting back against someone who was making problems for them. In their minds, legit.

    But Sparrow was just exercising his civil right to speak out against an organization he felt was behaving badly. If the Scientologists didn't agree with what he was saying, they might have had a debate with him. They might have written an article to rebut his criticisms. Stuff like that.

    Instead Kim Bellotti pretended she was afraid Sparrow wanted to rape her and got a restraining order. This was to stop Sparrow from protesting.

    You can't shut people up in a public place where they have a right to speak just because you don't like what they are saying. That is Fair Game and it is not okay.
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  7. Gottabrain Member

    I don't think you thought that through before you posted it, Yousee.

    When one leaves a church and states they are no longer a member, a church issue naming them some derogatory church label they made up is quite illegal, because the person is no longer a member and no longer subject to church policies or procedures. It then becomes slander or libel.

    And yes, I've tested this. I publicly disavowed myself from any membership with the Church of Scientology by legal letter and was not issued an SP Declare. Others before me did the same thing and were not declared SPs.

    Maybe you can use this, Grebe?
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  8. grebe Member

    Hey I think I just figured something out. I think this ex-Scientologist is telling the truth. But he thinks the mechanics of declaring someone "fair game" is the distinguishing feature. For a time in Scientology's history, there was something like a "fair game declare" on a person that was published within the organization. Then came bad PR and that practice stopped.

    But for us, it's the intent to silence someone saying critical things against Scientology that is the distinguishing feature. Really, who cares whether there is a piece of paper or not, or how many Scientologists are involved? The important thing is, you are afraid to speak when Scientology Fair Games you.

    Scientologists think the mechanics matter because they don't see the problem with silencing a source of entheta. For them that is the logical thing to do. For us, that is shooting the messenger --illogical and a rights violation.
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  9. grebe Member

    For my thought experiment, I need a Scientologist being fair gamed. Sounds like they left you alone which is the opposite.

    But yeah, people change religions all the time without religious groups getting butthurt about it. I never heard the phrase, "bitter apostate," until I started coming to this forum.
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  10. YouSeeNothing Member

    Saying "You are no longer a member of our community" is not slander or libel. If disconnection were illegal wouldn't all the former member's family and friends who are now shunning them be eligible for arrest? Our prisons would be full of Amish families. :)
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  11. YouSeeNothing Member

    This makes more sense. But again, I believe these groups have the right to exclude members. Death threats and threats were the crimes. Maybe if it was a case of discrimination then you might have something? Either way, I think I'm done here as this isn't the thread for it and I was under the impression that Grebe was doing something with this and it wasn't just a "thought experiment."
  12. grebe Member

    I was hoping to do more than just think, but I wasn't getting a lot of agreement. Most people are saying, "fuck Marty."

    Of course not. You have to do more than just leave to get declared an SP. And you don't have to get declared an SP to be regarded as an SP. Like, for example, people here.

    And even if you've been branded an SP, you aren't going to get singled out for Fair Game tactics unless you are worth the trouble.
  13. Anonymous Member

    I think if you leave and do not “attack” them the scilons do not declare you suppressice, but if you attack then they do. That’s what I understand.
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  14. Anonymous Member

    Funny how some people think that exercising one's freedom to protest is an "attack."
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  15. Anonymous Member

    Organized crime figures have left gone into witness protection for testifying and still to this day there are contracts out for their lives. They also came clean about their activities unlike Marty Rathbun & Mike Rinder.

    Marty Rathbun the Worldwide Enforcer for Scientology/Organized Crime Inc. is no different you cannot be a thug for most of your life and then say I quit while walking away scot free. By societies rules he is a bigger low life than any former organized crime figure as he has not even come clean on all the pain and suffering he dealt out.
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  16. Gottabrain Member

    ?? I didn't say that. I said an SP Declare. This is about Scientology, not the Amish. COS has never issued sweet litle notices that someone has left the community. Are you in the right forum?
  17. Gottabrain Member

    Well, no. Leaving staff without a fully signed off routing form and all sec checks completed is considered blowing and can (and does) get one declared an SP. If one states one has doubts as a staff member, one can get sent to the RPF if stats are coincidentally down. Then it can take years to get through the sec checks.

    True.
  18. grebe Member

    But most people who start Scientology eventually leave. It's my understanding they aren't regarded as SPs unless they ask for their money back, say mean things about Scientology in public, or otherwise inconvenience the organization --like walking off the job as a Scientology employee.
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  19. grebe Member

    Lots of people regard criticism as an attack --not a physical attack, but a threat to their reputation. But it's better to hear honest criticism than dishonest flattery. And it is possible to grow a thick enough skin so the entheta doesn't hurt too much.
  20. Anonymous Member

    You have a terrible problem with run-on sentences.
  21. Anonymous Member

    I wasn't paid to understand grammar neither was Marty Rathbun or Mike Rinder at least I understand my area.
  22. Anonymous Member

    *sprays couch*
  23. anonamus Member

    Didn't they at least complete the Student Hat brainwashing step course while on staff in Sea Org?
  24. Anonymous Member

    ^ Both of ya enjoy the couch or recliner
  25. Gottabrain Member

    Unfortunately, that's not an accurate perception. Grebe, I was the Dir I&R AOLA (Inspections & Reports - over the entire ethics department, both staff and public) and also spent over a year as the Director of Income for USGO. Do you mind if I correct you on this part?

    Those that have quietly and successfully left Scientology without issue or declare were public who simply changed address and stopped communicating altogether and never admitted to anyone they were ever in, never brought up the subject of Scientology or their history with it again. That was the majority. Because nobody could confirm why they left, where they went or anything else, there was nothing that could be said about them. Since they, in essence, "disappeared" on their own, it was not an out-PR situation. They forgot us, we forgot them.

    Some public communicated their disagreements, but to the correct terminals (ethics officer, Int Justice Chief, etc.) and nobody else. These were then Declared one or another form of "PTS Type A-J" if none of the handlings worked. http://www.xenu-directory.net/glossary/glossary_p.htm#PTS_Type_J They were given security checks, or ordered to more auditing, or a host of many things to handle them, including disconnection from those who might be critical of Scientology.

    The "think" in Scn is that anyone who wants to leave has something wrong with them. If Scn can't fix it, the tek says there's something wrong with them so we better label it and get an issue out and let everyone know before anyone else gets infected.

    The purpose of ethics is: To get rid of counter-intentionedness. After that's accomplished, it's to get rid of other-intentionedness. (from some policy, I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried but I swear it never leaves my brain. :eek: ) That is ALWAYS followed.

    Other-intentionedness would be like, wanting your kid to go to college, or even meditating or reading the Bible.

    Now staff, that's another kettle of fish. Staff aren't supposed to leave. EVER. They know too much. Before 1981, hardly any left without blowing or SP Declares - the freeloader debts and fair gaming was too much. Heaps of efforts are made to track down blown staff so they can be fixed/corrected/punished - and put through horrendous security checks about their crimes, made scared enough to never say a word and made to sign lots of documents and quickly pay their F/L debts so they can become active, dedicated public Scientologists. If that's accomplished, then everyone's happy. If not, well, there's always the RPF for the Sea Org and the other orgs and groups have their own methods that are often nearly as bad. Break the person, break the spirit, convince them they are wrong and evil and they will never be a risk, right?

    That's how it works. In short, anyone who disagrees once they are in is considered an asshole.

    Getting out is much, much harder these days. A public who even misses an event is noticed and a report goes in his file. Not paying money or signing over your kid to the SO gets you in trouble with Ethics. It's a coercive, manipulative, evil organisation.

    But they only fair game the big names that actually hurt their PR and tarnish their false shining image with the ugly truth. Like David Love, David Mayo, Paulette Cooper, Aaron Saxton, Emma, some of the Anons here and a long, long exhaustive list of others who dared to speak the truth and warn the public.

    ADDED: I got declared an SP once after spending 8 weeks getting through sec checks to take a Leave of Absence (holiday) to introduce my son to his grandparents - declared SP because the Commanding Officer refused to sign. She just didn't believe staff should ever have vacations. I left anyway, got Declared and had to jump a lot of hoops to get it lifted. I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG. SHE did.
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  26. Anonymous Member

    ^Not that you meant to but it's the same as a aka street-gang/Organized crime, once you are in if anybody knows about you then you are still a liability and may be treated as such welcome to my world. I'm perfectly okay with my past life it's just scientology conducts itself just like organized crime so why is it not called by that name?
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  27. Gottabrain Member

    ^^ Anon, I agree. The similarities in the treatment of Scns who leave with those who leave organized crime syndicates or gangs are striking.

    I knew an ex-gang member once, who told me all one night. He said if he hadn't been moving, he'd have to kill me for what he'd just said. That was the biggest confession I've ever heard, nothing like the propaganda Scn passes off on its ex-members as crimes. Of course, we never spoke or saw each other again after that.

    I'm glad he got it off his chest. He was a great guy with a terrible past that had to be put behind.

    It wasn't who he really was when he was in the gang, but what he was forced to be.

    I get you, Anon. Good on you for your strength and courage to walk away.
  28. YouSeeNothing Member

    I wasn't quoting you. Justice is blind, if declares were illegal, the Amish would be in trouble, was my point. :) My own mother was excommunicated from the church, would we be able to go after the Catholic church on that premise? Alas, I did say I was done with this thread, just wanted to clarify my post. You guys have fun with your thought exercises, I have to get back to getting that cult shit out of my public schools. I got rated "dumb" twice in this thread from Scientologists, I must be doing something right. Oh, and Gottabrain, I wouldn't push too hard making SP declares illegal, you might have to take some responsibility for what you were a part of.
  29. Anonymous Member

    I like knowing exactly where Marty is. He can't pull that "I live in a super secret invisible base" crap anymore.
  30. jensting Member

    But it is in whose interest that you conclude that those people are actually beside you in any way (other than posting here, which they're careful to do anonymously)?

    Best Regards
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  31. Anonymous Member

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  32. Anonymous Member

    Thread has gone all esmb.
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  33. grebe Member

    There's a place for, "Let's agree to disagree and go our separate ways." Scientology's policy of forced disconnection from declared SPs is more heavy handed than that, though.

    If you're a prominent Catholic, e.g., a teacher at a Catholic school, and you promote some idea that is not acceptable to the Church, such as abortion, you may be excommunicated. But the Church won't insist that your Catholic spouse divorce you, or that your kids no longer speak to you.

    A second point: We should keep distinct the issues of Fair Game, SP Declares, and Disconnection. There may be room to argue over Disconnection or SP Declares, but I don't think that same amount of room exists for Fair Game.
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  34. grebe Member

    Your details are useful. But I still want a tl;dr version. Let's see if this works:
    By adding "reject," I think I capture the people who start some courses but then request to be removed from the mailing lists. From what you wrote, I expect that those people would be considered SPs.

    The Scientologists seem to be experts at tracking down former members who have moved and left no forwarding address. You might need to get a new name and Social Security number these days to escape them without notice.

    But now I'm puzzled by this:
    Are you making a distinction between the people who are formally declared SPs on Goldenrod and those who are considered SPs without the declare? Because based on your most recent post, I think you must have been considered an SP when you left the organization.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the Goldenrod SP Declares are few and far between these days.
  35. Anonymous Member

    Of all the objectionable things Scientology does, Fair Game is the least defensible. The only defense they have at this point is, "We cancelled that policy years ago." However, their own behavior demonstrates that they still believe it is appropriate to try to silence people who voice criticism or opposition to their aims, typically by harming them or threatening to harm them.

    You know, we silence people on this forum. Sometimes it's only partial, like when we put their posts in the Dome or the Garbage Pile, or a user places someone on "ignore" so they don't have to listen, although others can still listen to the person. But sometimes a user account is banned or an IP is banned. These actions seem necessary to keep the forum from being overrun with spam and trolls.

    So I'm wondering what people think: As a general rule, when or how is it acceptable to silence certain people?
  36. Anonymous Member

    Yes, if your mother was excommunicated, y'all could still go to church, she just couldn't take communion and because of that she'd lose her eternity. And penance is a doddle. confession of sin? Hail Marys? Work in the soup kitchen? Sounds like a typical day, no RPF for her, just the gnawing fear that she won't go to heaven if she doesn't do the penance, because someone told her so.

    They won't pursue you, they just figure if you were raised Catholic, you'll probably be back.
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  37. Anonymous Member

    can we talk about the subject matter of the thread? Marty “blowing” Casablanca and hiding in the woods!
  38. Anonymous Member

    kk I will make it all anon again: fuck marty!
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  39. anonamus Member

    *) That is IMO the most retarded comparison I've witnessed for a long time!

    AFAIK, WWP doesn't "silence" anyone - not even OSA - for relevant postings.
    Dome/GP is still accessible to all, right? And the shit that ends up there deserves it 99.99% of the time IMO.
    (Perma) bannings I have seen has had it's good reasons, not just for run-of-the-mill trolling.
    There's lightyears of difference from the cult of scientology's way and reasoning for silencing ppl.

    **) And BTW, scientology's Fair Game practice is NOT defensible at all IMO.
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  40. Anonymous Member

    Yeah, cos getting permabanned off WWP means the person cannot post anywhere else anywhere on the internet ever again. Silenced is silenced.
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