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"Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

Discussion in 'Media' started by tamphex, May 22, 2008.

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  1. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    AAAARRRRRGGGGG!

    I just can't read another Akbar post. I'm skipping pages of this, KNOWING only one or two people here are addressing the OTHER HALF of obvious.

    THINK ABOUT THIS

    Basic Logic:

    They aren't allowed to talk to us unsupervised
    They did, after their babysitter left
    Why?

    (a) they planned on handling us (completely unorthodox from standard tactics, does not explain guy leaving nor timing of confront)
    (b) they are doing this without permission

    Consider (b)
    They are doing this without permission. What gives?

    1. If they are really Sea Org, they have been doing research outside what they are usually allowed to, possibly due to huge blows in OSA numbers. They are being exposed to information they ordinarily would not, and may actually see the huge holes (lies) in their cult's PR against Anonymous

    2. They have doubts and WANT to review ALL data, as per common sense AND Hubbard tech (which they are usually restrained from using due to psycho/social brainwashing)

    3. They don't see the risk that they will be in deep sheeeeit for being out-ethics, or don't care any more because something serious dissent is smoldering in the SO, command lines disrupted by blows and all.

    What will come of it?

    TRAP = brownie points for namefagging a couple people or allowing us to make fools of ourselves

    CURIOSITY = they will have more data to consider, and therefore INCREASE THEIR FREE WILL TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES.

    Who cares? So we get a few SO to blow, right?

    WRONG.

    They have no authority to make policy decisions ... or do they? What if a whole part of the SO attempts a coup, in an effort to tame the evil beast currently nose-ringed by Miscavige?

    And if we don't go, we prove once again we are unable to confront instead of hide behind masks, at least in the eyes of those who could be salvaged.

    CONCLUSION

    Go in with the expectation it COULD be a trap and stay safe, but play it as if it is a BEST-CASE scenario (above) to not loose potential opportunity. Then even if it IS a trap, we will have our best, honest face forward, instead of being eager to gang-bang them with arguments and facts to where we are just ranting like in so many nearly-incoherent videos I've seen.
  2. tamphex Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I can't sleep. Not until I at least reach a decision on this at least. Yknow what, fuck em. The very approach they took today to start a conversation with me was shitty at best.

    Shit. They FAIRGAMED us today, for all intended purposes. They're not going to take a professional and well planned meeting seriously. And no doubt it would be up to myself & others to do the legwork to make it happen, and for what? For them to turn my well intended words into some sort of disgusting spin in order to slander me and everything I've worked for these last four months on Enturb.

    That's not worth risking. This community isn't worth risking, and it would be totally selfish and foolish for me to think otherwise. The meeting will not take place.

    OSA: We've met now, we've spoken in person. If you have any sense left you should realize that I'm no stranger to your tactics and as you found out, I can hold my own in a comm cycle. We didn't have any MUs so I'll assume we won't have any when I say this;

    Nice try. I didn't appreciate my posters being removed by the way, that was very rude. Do you think because you disagree with my belief in the corruption and seediness happening in The Scientology Organization it gives you the goddamn right to do that? If so, then it's is YOURSELVES that are out ethics. Do you see me walking into the Dianetics Centre in Castlereagh St and tearing down your Dianetics Posters?! No, because I believe in doing things the right way. Unlike yourselves which you proved today with your behavior. Oh and Tojo, you're a coward. You had the best chance ever to talk to me one and one but you decided to take the non confront avenue instead. For shame. I'll see you June 14th. I'll be the guy chanting the loudest.

    (Leaving the thread open until tomorrow then will shut it before it gets too xbox )
  3. Borealis Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Is it too tinfoil hat to think 'potential hostage situation'? Or are they not quite that desperate or stupid yet?

    I agree with all those who are saying 'don't go into the org'. Neutral ground with an independent witness. Don't acknowledge anything that will let them say you are one of Anonymous' leaders, because I think that may be one of their goals, to get people to at least seem to be saying they are a leader. Record everything. Go in with a prepared list of what is required to get the protests to stop (this should be something agreed upon and standardized beforehand in case others meetings take place). Tell them that the list is not negotiable.

    Thoughts on the list:

    DM to hand himself into police and confess to his crimes.
    RPF to be disbanded and current prisoners to be released.
    Revocation of tax exempt status.
    All people being held against their will (who are not in RPF) to be released.
    An end to the disconnection policy.
    Compensation paid to all victims of fair game, and the practice of fair game to cease (and not just in name only).

    Edit: ah you've decided against it, posted while I was typing. It's probably for the best.
  4. Fear Not Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Also there are no TERMS, just concerns.
    Just try to tell me your terms in order for me to change my life and see how far you get.
    But if you put forth some concerns ‘for the record’ on paper and they do the same and then each side takes their allotted time to address those concerns, we each will have something to think about.
  5. anon9000+ Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    YOU ARE A WINRAR.

    Good for you.

    In retrospect i agree it would have been a bad idea.
  6. AnonOutreach Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Does it occur to anyone that CoS *offer* is flawed?

    We aren't playing Mr. Amnesty-peacemaker-to-the-world here.

    We aren't here to "negotiate terms of surrender"--that's the government's job after criminal charges are laid.

    If they want dialog--all they have to do is open up a website, send us the addy and open the discussion. There would be all the discussion they could handle.

    Our job is to point out their human rights abuses. THEIR JOB IS TO FIX IT.

    We've said that all along. And CoS *knows* it.

    I've seen these situations dozens of times with activists. It ends up with the movement getting screwed by someone who is trying to be kind who thinks they can "negotiate" a settlement when there's no settlement to be had. The talk is pretty and the action dies.

    Tamphex, the real question you have to ask yourself is what is going to happen to YOU if you go in there, CoS uses you to screw Anonymous publicly and Anons say you did NOT follow the hivemind which said, "bad idea is bad idea".

    It doesn't matter if CoS says, "Oh we offered to negotiate and they said NO" So what?

    There's nothing to negotiate. We don't have any legal leverage to force them to comply with the law. We're using public pressure to get the government to force their legal compliance.

    Dealing with their "offer" is simple.

    Tamphex:

    Tell them that the information about anonymous' demands is all over the web so stop playing innocent and stupid and stop trying to make YOU responsible for THEIR responses to it.

    Because that, my friend, is *exactly* what they are trying to do.
  7. anonymoose Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    :flop:

    *great big sigh of relief*

    :flowers: to you for not being taken in by them.
  8. CantPickaName Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Awesome and Bitchin
  9. Spathi Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Bravo.
  10. admiral_caek Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    NOOOO

    You are falling for one of Hubbard's "handling" techniques. This sea org guy isn't using any sort of special authority or diplomatic forethought. I'll try to find the precise cult policy letter describing this exact situation, but here's the summary:

    "If someone is producing bad media, offer them a meeting at the org. At that meeting, threaten them with heavy-handed litigation and say that you will file a lawsuit unless they sign a statement admitting to it and agree to never slander [the cult] again."


    PLEASE!
    DO NOT FALL FOR THIS



    We all know that these are not rational people. They are not interested in changing. Meetings need to be between sear org and Government Investigators (prior to the cult's criminal prosecution of course).
  11. Shellback Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    QUOTE=tamphex;281875]
    Nice try. I didn't appreciate my posters being removed by the way, that was very rude. Do you think because you disagree with my belief in the corruption and seediness happening in The Scientology Organization it gives you the goddamn right to do that? If so, then it's is YOURSELVES that are out ethics. Do you see me walking into the Dianetics Centre in Castlereagh St and tearing down your Dianetics Posters?! No, because I believe in doing things the right way. Unlike yourselves which you proved today with your behavior. Oh and Tojo, you're a coward. You had the best chance ever to talk to me one and one but you decided to take the non confront avenue instead. For shame. I'll see you June 14th. I'll be the guy chanting the loudest.

    (Leaving the thread open until tomorrow then will shut it before it gets too xbox )[/QUOTE]

    Ah! Fair enough.

    They are gaming the Anons just like they game everything. The first rule of diplomacy is courtesy and if they fail at that stage, they cannot but fail at the rest.
  12. AnonOutreach Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I am breathing a HUGE sigh of relief here Tamphex. Thank you for standing strong on this. If they had a clap on the back icon I'd put 3 here.:flowers::flowers::flowers:

    This was a no-win for you and you came through it. yay!
  13. infinitysnake Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I think really unless DM himself were turn up, it would prove a fruitless endeavor. These guys would be meeting with people who a) have no authority to make any changes, and b) almost certainly have a secret agenda, which could be "See, we tried to reason with them," but could also be "they tried to bomb the building!!" I would stay far, far away.
  14. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Addendum:
    How to know if it is a trap

    1. If OSA is there, it's a trap.
    2. If GSA is there, it's almost assuredly a trap.
    3. If they wear Roman clerical collars, it's DEFINITELY a trap.
    4. If the press is there, it's a trap ... BUT a potentially huge foot-bullet

    5. If they meet with you on neutral ground where all can feel comfortable, that's not an effective handling environment, so probably not a trap
    6. If they aren't recording you, they are probably really serious about hearing what you have to say
    7. If a handler shows up and they have the balls to refuse to be handled and be a free being, either it's a show because they read this thread, or epic win ensues, for them personally as human beings and for great justice for all.

    Remember, these people are the elite marines of their 'faith', the (uninformed and abused) hive workers giving their very lives toward a better world. It doesn't matter if they think they are the only ones really working toward such things or have the "inside" truth about humanity and salvation because no one else has the 'tech', whatever!

    Show them some respect instead of confrontation or ridicule, or don't waste time doing this. Even if it's a trap and you do this right, they can ignore your message that day, but never erase it from the back of their minds.
  15. Fear Not Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Okay, perhaps another time there will be a good public debate with Scientology.
  16. Hypatea Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    don't do it tamphex, it's a trap. of course you're going to do whatever you want, but keep in mind that they have been investigating you (according to your post they know all about you) and this has to be seen in a hostile light. Talk? Talk is always good. Invite them to debate you in the media, even live. If you go into their lair, your words will be recombulated such that they will present proof to the authorities that you threatened to skin them alive and eat their children. please do not let them trick you. this is a trap.
  17. CantPickaName Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    The only people i want to see across a table from DM is the FBI
  18. AnonLover Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    good - you've now come back up into present time :wink:

    now go get some sleep, then reconsider the tactic of just blowing the whole thing off cuz your frustrated you got gamed.

    they handed you a silver platter of footbullets - fking use it!!! yes, they will never agree to a neutral fair discussion so here's your perfect opportunity to exploit that to our advantage, get proof they refuse to negotiate, and take it to the media :fuckyou:

    that will be the last time they try and trick another anon who might not be as savvy as you into a bogus 'sitdown'
  19. CantPickaName Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org



    whats the point? Either they lie or are in the dark
  20. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    This would be too foreign to their thinking.

    Their social structure is authoritarian to the core. Democratic dialog between groups of people directly without tight comm control would be like living underwater blindfolded for them.

    Their offer of a few "representatives" from both sides makes makes just as much sense as a covert fact-finding mission as it does a trap.
  21. anonspitfire Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    it seemed to me like an informal kind of talk... but i wouldnt trust them...
  22. AnonPort Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    FUCK NO IT IS NOT TOO TINFOIL HAT!!
    I always err on the side of paranoia in cases like this. I would not put it base a large Org to try and round up known Anon's under the guise of "talking". If they send there members to RPF just for questioning the Tek or questioning why they are doing all this? Lord knows what they might MIGHT do to an Anon member.

    note: notice Scientology I did NOT state in any way that you WOULD do anything harmful I simply state you MIGHT or I would not put it past some of your more zealot members to TRY.

    note2: Scientology you are humans like the rest of us not super humans not gods. And as such you are prone to emotions like anger and revenge despite what your TEK says.

    note3: I have not question in my mind Scientology that most of you are out to help and do good, and that you honestly do believe what your auditors and handlers and leaders tell you about Anonymous. And that you are just "protecting" yourself and your church. We are doing the same, we are protecting ourselves, our families, friends, AND YOU we fight for everyone. We fight for the truth to be out in the open for all to see. Believe what you wish, but do you think you need to PAY for that truth?

    note4: The claims that Co$ make about what you can do at the higher levels are similar to the claims many faiths make. But unlike Scientology most faiths make it clear you need to find enlightenment, inner peace, ect ect. And that this state can only be found on your own. No one can make it happen for you. No one can UNLOCK it for you. It is a journey that one can walk with many but in the end YOU... YOU find your own way to that peace and enlightenment. You should not have to PAY for it!
  23. Fear Not Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Thampex, your heart was certainly in the right place.
    You will live to fight another day.
  24. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org



    So don't have Tamphex go. BUT GO DAMNIT!

    Did you ever uncover a trap by NOT setting it off? Just let it go off with your eyes open - if it's even a trap - and then you will have more intel at the least than before.

    And not a failed opportunity. You people are generalizing ALL Scilons as unbending robots. How many more Tory Magoos are out there? remember, these people have underlying personalities that are their own, and it was their openmindedness (if not born into it) that got them IN the cult ... it's just buried and needs to be reawakened. You SAW people having doubts and being surprised at how much we know, just as much as those who plug their ears and go "LALALA!"

    And they did NOT fair game anybody by taking photos and ripping down posters. Paulette Cooper was fair-gamed. Shawn Londsdale was fair-gamed. And people make a huge deal about getting a namefagging lawyer's letter sent to their mommies! Yeah, a few Anons got a taste of it, but not the recommended serving size by any stretch.

    Look, if the other guy was their babysitter, and it's their ORDERS to take down posters and photo you guys, and yet they make an offer to talk ... okay, you don't want to do it. Fine.

    AT LEAST make it clear WHY you don't want to meet with them, and offer to meet online on IRC or something if they are serious. They WONT threaten you there because WE own the Internets, right? And if they do, even in person, it would be on YouTube in minutes, and they know that.

    So Tamphex, get some sleep and rethink this. If you don't go, maybe that would be better (based on the above concerns), but I recommend SOMEONE going, even with Old Guard and Ex-Org especially if possible, and setting ground rules and location, with safety measures taken accordingly.
  25. Fear Not Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Yep, and people get to see how they lie and are in the dark.
    And ya stick it up on you tube.
    How do you think people have been able to see that they lie?
  26. CantPickaName Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Yes...I knew that, sorry....its a combo of being upset at these scilons and still on 1st cuppa coffee
  27. admiral_caek Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    YES

    thank xenu! [i was seriously going into panic mode. it's not possible to express how strongly i feel against any type of sit-down discussion with cult admin. there is nothing to gain and everything to lose.]


    remember guys: don't give them "leaders".
  28. anonymoose Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    It doesn't matter who goes. Once you're in that meeting you're "representing" Anon, and one told is all of us told.

    The traps have been uncovered before- we know about fairgame, we know about their litigiousness, we pretty much know everything.
  29. gregg Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Tamphex:
    I have one request, and its a selfish one. Could you ask them why I am being harassed by lawyers and in the court system for legal peaceful protests?
  30. felinonymous Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Fine- then STILL get in touch with Dawn of Glosslip and talk about this shit. I guarantee this isn't over until you publicly state that it is over. State your reasons for not playing the game. You aren't talking to Enturb here- you are talking to the people who will wonder why you weren't willing to come to the table.

    They will use this. Be smart. Use it too. To the advantage of Anonymous.
  31. elwood Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I second all this. One of the downsides of this is that CoS is desperate to identify someone - anyone as a leader of Anonymous. You must make it clear (repeatedly) that you are not a leader of anything and they asked to talk to you, not the other way around. You don't have the authority to negotiate anything and don't represent Anonymous - just yourself. THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. You do not want to get tagged as a leader of Anonymous.

    Again:

    1. Public venue. DO NOT GO INTO THE ORG!!
    2. Impartial observers (preferably Press).
    3. Video the whole thing.

    If the Sea Ogres won't agree to all three points above - DON'T DO IT!
  32. Whanonstler Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    tamphex wins! Flawless Victoly!

    So glad you told them to stuff it. Bastards.
  33. xenubarb Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Not to bust yer bubble or anything, but this is a common tactic. Many OG have had the same offer, "let's get together over coffee/lunch/whatever and discuss our differences."

    This is as meaningless as anything else they do. They're hoping to get you to divulge information which can be used later to harm you. Here's what I tell them:

    "I'm sorry, but there is no point in discussing our differences with you. You do not have the authority to initiate change, so there's little point in wasting time discussing anything. You don't speak for DM, and I don't speak for the critics, so it would be an exercise in futility from my point of view. Here, have a flier. Bye!"
  34. admiral_caek Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    No.

    No.

    No.

    No.


    There is nothing to gain. Once upon a time the cult sat down and talked to the United States IRS. Remember how that went? They are following the tech as they always have!

    If the cult wants to know our grievances, they can fucking read one of the posters they tore down.
  35. elwood Member

  36. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    What makes you think the particular people involved even know about your situation?

    Why does everyone ASSume these particulat SO members are representing the "church" itself instead of a group of them who might actually be thinking for themselves? Aren't most of them in the dark about MOST things, and maybe they need to hear your story more than you need to ask about it?

    Is our prejudice against them so great that we will miss the final blow, never being able to see if and when the fifth column arises????????

    ?
  37. Ten Tigers Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    So... When is this meeting supposed to take place?
  38. misskittie Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Sure i've just read a message from Tamphex which says it ain't happenin' shitheads (I paraphrase slightly!)
  39. deepthot42 Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I would just ask them this hypothetical question:

    "If there was something wrong happening within the SO, not covered in the tech, would you feel comfortable enough to speak up about it? To try to change it?"

    That's why Anonymous is here.

    Would have asked anyway...
  40. SmackThePony Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Good decision, Tamphex. As many others have stated, I think they just wanted to "handle" you. The guy you spoke to can ask his questions right outside his Org on the 14th.
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