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"Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

Discussion in 'Media' started by tamphex, May 22, 2008.

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  1. Anne Ominous Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Whilst I think negotiations will play a role once Scientology starts showing the pain with org closures etc, at this stage I would be wary.

    They are MASTERS of disinformation and psyops. They are not stupid, and they certainly know what they want out of this. The fact that ESMB as a whole seems to think this is a trap is pretty indicative of what is going down here. They are either going to attack you for being a mod, or try to convince you that you're the bad guy, which you're obviously not.

    You got his phone number/e-mail right? Then get a dialogue going via email channels. All this should be about is pointing him/them in the direction of Co$ criminality, and you can do that with e-mail alone; it's how Andreas saved Tory after all.

    I agree with the exscns, and strongly recommend keeping this impersonal.
  2. Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Sorry Tamphex, i have to say I agree with the naysayers, It looks like a PR trap to me, you can only speak as the site owner, not even for the site users, certainly not for Anonymous, so you have little or nothing to offer them other than your own opinion of what you want to see happen.

    Likewise they cannot speak for DM or the other scientology members, they too can offer nothing other than their own opinion, that is even if they have one that is seperate from the dogma.

    Maybe you should consider an 'open letter ' to them listing why we are protesting and what we want to see happen, again this can only be 'in your opinion', but it's safer than meeting with them, and they have every opportunity to put their money where their mouth is and reply to that letter open and honestly.
  3. anonymous1244 Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Here's another idea: why not offer to set up a site that Scientologists/Sea Org can use to communicate with us - the questions could then be funneled to enturb, so that they don't need to feel "enturbulated".

    All our answers would be moderated before being forwarded, so there'd be no risk of people mentioning or linking to higher level material etc. i.e. a respectful channel that could be used to "clarify" and communicate. Really, if their offer is sincere, there's no good reason why they couldn't accept something along these lines, as long as it's well implemented.
  4. Emma Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    They wouldn't do it in an Org. They would never bring that level of "enturbulation" anywhere near an Org.
  5. Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I was just thinking of this in conjunction with my previous post.

    an open letter on the front page of the site, offer to post their reply there also. no comments on the front page so no chance of anything getting derailed.

    then a closed forum 'read' only for members apart from tamphex and them. so that the issues can be discussed. that way we can read what is said, debate it elsewhere, and the thread won't get overun, and Tamphex could filter in any questions , opinions etc we come up with ?
  6. Valiant Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Just realize you are putting yourself and enturbulation in a potentially dangerous situation (for many reasons). Anonymous does not have a representative, especially not one without a mask. Information about why we protest is available on the internet.
  7. Whanonstler Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Only the kids who have had sex get killed. :fuckyou:
  8. Shellback Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Much agreement. Their objective is to get to the heart of the Anons.


    I'm not too sure of hat, similar things are happening in other places. This may be coming from DM himself and whoever you speak to might be "the mouthpiece of DM ." With the way that fellow micromanages, I'd say that is a very high probability.

    Weblog of G. Allen Blog Archive Interesting Times 5.0

    The PR is very important here. They will say "WE tried to negotiate and YOU turned us down! - Take THAT bad SP!."

    I think sitting down to talk in a setting that allows you to record and publish the conversation is not a bad idea at all. You will be representing yourself, not everyone participating in a picket. If they want to play that game, let them.

    Just for god's sake talk to some professional PR people first, and it might not be a bad idea to speak to a lawyer.
  9. Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I just don't think, and it has yet to be confirmed, that they will agree to those terms, it would be a real change of tactics for the entire organisation if they, after all this time agreed to sit down and be on record for the world in an honest and open discussion.

    pessimistic anon is pessimistic.
  10. Randomness Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    This is more reasonable and I think any other option would be foolish.

    Tamphex, what they are doing it getting you on video in a way that lets them do a Sweeney on you.

    They are here ONLY to make you look bad for PR, there is no other reason, this is the Sea Org, the most dedicated of all the brainwashed Scienos.

    They are always following tech and DM Squirrel tech, they never break from it, they never evolve, they only apply it differently.

    For our own PR it's important that you do this, so I won't discourage you.

    I guarantee that they will dredge up everything bad that's ever happened or been done by you, your family and your friends.

    I guarantee they will bullbait you and verbally assault you incessantly.

    I guarantee that they will edit everything in their own video to put you in a bad light.

    I guarantee they will slander you after this, I guarantee they will make libellous statements.

    I can guarantee if this was done on their turf they would make a false police report.


    But I also know you're smart, just making sure that you take everything I've said into consideration.

    IMO call the media and invite them to record this.
  11. Robert S Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I can't find one ex who thinks this is a good idea. At least not yet. Think about gains and losses. They can spin it either way now "we asked, they don't want to talk" and "we talked and they can't be reasoned with" then enturbulation.org is in jeopardy. What - if any - kind of thing does this gain us??

    It's Thursday. Happy stat day.

    No.

    FUCK this shit already.
  12. Whanonstler Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Two Star Wars quotes come to mind"

    "I've got a bad feeling about this"

    and

    "It's a trap!"

    Spinning Sea Org will be spiiiiiinnnnning this.
  13. JOE999999999 Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    There is no "upside" to this tactically or strategically....

    They just want names, and to placate.

    I say blow them off. IF they want to find out what Anon is, do like everyone else.....

    LURK MOAR.
  14. Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    This is why I am so against the idea.
    if they label this, either before or after, as a negotiation, we are screwed right royally.

    Tamphex cannot negotiate for anyone except himself. They can claim they are negotiating for the 'church' we can't dissprove that.

    therefore they win....

    'we tried to negotiate with them, they refused'
    'we tried to come to an agreement to halt the protests, they carried on anyway'

    it could be a PR nightmare for Anonymous.
  15. andy-nonymous Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    This can only fail.

    Don't go into the Org. Don't forget who you're dealing with.

    I mean, we've been going on and on about how they're getting more desperate and violent, and now we're going to meet with them on their home turf like they've invited us over for bridge and enturbulation?

    Please reconsider.
  16. Valiant Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I have to agree, this can only fail. Just keep on talking with him outside like you did.
  17. tamphex Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I'm gonna go rest my brain and sleep on the situation. I trust your opinions & input guys, which is why I put this out there to be thrown around by the cats, clawed at & chewed on. Much appreciated and I'm taking it on board. I've never do anything to jeopardize enturb or myself (obviously!) so I'll let my gut feeling and brain battle it out as I sleep. You guys do the same (except you crazy guys across the sea who live in bizarro in the past land)
  18. Anonqwerty Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I was sitting on the fence for a while, but add me to the nay-sayers

    THE WHOLE OF ESMB ADVISES AGAINST THIS

    You should listen to them, for all our sakes. We can't afford for anything to happen now, we've come so far.
  19. Spathi Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Unless you're meeting with someone who can affect global change, there is absolutely no reason to do this. Underlings in a highly hierarchical organization like Scientology can't make decisions or make policy. Why waste your time?

    Also, the fact they're willing to meet you means that you're being effective. You should continue to be effective. Heed Robert S. Stay on target.
  20. Top Grunge Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    This is an attempt to get you into the Org with cameras for sure.

    I am not against meeting and discussion, though in a very public place. Absolutely no video taken for both sides, and to be fair to each. We have to take the higher ground. If we flat out refuse, they can use it against us, but if they refuse to meet outside the Org, then they are the weenies and can't use it against us publicly.

    Don't like it much, but the ball is already rolling. Of course, that person could get Sec Checked like a mother f#cker for just talking to a PTS and it could all disappear.

    Theme is, whatever you do, don't go into Org....unless you find it fun to watch crappy ass movies and be filmed for their own propoganda.
  21. Anonym_Redux Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    So 97.5% of Anonymous is safe, then? :fuckyou:

    To the sceptics: Of course it's a trap. We know it's a trap. So what?

    This will not be a peace negotiation. There will be no compromising. There will be no promises to stop protesting.

    This will be our chance to
    1) Show that, yes, we are willing to communicate (Seriously, how many times have we called the Scientologists cowards for not speaking to us?)
    2) List, in front of high-ranking Scientologists, our very real grievances with Scientology. Many of them are still convinced that we are nothing but deluded teenagers.

    Are we, or are we not, trying to get the message across to those on the inside?

    What are the possible negative outcomes?

    That Tamphex has an epic meltdown á la John Sweeney on camera? Well, the CoS spun that one into a nice propaganda movie...for other scientologists. For normal people, the Panorama documetary is one of the best examples for why Scientology is so damn creepy. If anon has their own vidoes of the event, showing people getting bullbaited to the point of snapping, that would hardly reflect positively on scientology.

    That Tamphex gets Fair Gamed? Well, sucks for him, but that would only strengthen Anonymous. If we accept their invitation, and then they attack our people, it will only serve to show what scum they are.

    That the CoS tries to spin this to the media as "Oh, we tried talking to them, but there's just no reasoning with these people"? Well, we can spin that right back. "We were reasonable and agreed to talk, but they were unreasonable and refused to admit that there was a problem."

    That Tamphex gets brainwashed into joining the cult, and shuts down enturb? Well, that would sort of suck.

    Seriously, I see nothing but good in this. We come off as taking the high road, being willing to listen and participate in a dialouge. We show that Scientology publicly acknowledges us as very big problem that they are unable to handle through normal means. And we get to tell a room full of Sea Org people "You have been lied to. We are not confused youngsters that have been tricked. We are informed, we are focused, and we are legion."
  22. felinonymous Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Guys- there is a negative PR value here too. The moment they made the offer was the moment Tamphex was fooked. He doesn't suit up and show up, they get to claim "we tried".

    Get Dawn of Glosslip on this. Now they are talking to press. And the gloves are different.

    I don't necessarily agree with the idea, I just think that the PR has the potential to suck- unless we bring them to the table with us.

    The moment it was proposed, we were in a corner. Tamphex, I think, gets that. Now we have to get out. No matter what we do, coS will spin it the way they want. The goal is to deny them ammunition against us.
  23. Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    THIS^^

    a crack has appeared in the rockface.

    when a crack appears it is not considered safe to sqeeze through and see whats in there on your own, it's the time to stick a bloody great pickaxe in and lever the whole thing wide open for all to see.
  24. Plups Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    It is vital for any meeting to be a success that the participants understand the purpose of the meeting. Agree in writing beforehand that the purpose of the meeting is not to seek any resolution of issues. Rather, it is to communicate each other's perspectives. (You could both sign such a statement.) ie. Keep expectations of the meeting low and achievable. You may only identify areas that each of you is interested in hearing from the other about in more detail. You might agree to go away and pull together some sources/docs to back up your position on points of interest. (Anything that you provide should be copied beforehand and certified by a suitable person as a true copy of what you are giving them - to preclude any games.)

    It seems to me that a public forum is a bit down the track. A properly handled meeting between a small group will open a dialogue and, possibly, build trust. A public forum would put a lot of pressure on the participants. Baby steps.

    You might want to agree in advance to limit the length of the meeting. If it's successful, it doesn't have to be the last one. And you can't expect to cover too much ground in one meeting. Perhaps agree to wind up after an hour or so. Better that people leave feeling fresh than weary and so vulnerable to saying silly things.

    Perhaps it's the naivete of a non-scn, but I think it's worth a go. If you meet in a meeting room at the local police station or somewhere equally 'safe', (even better at a cafe next door to a police station?), and take precautions (including security of your home and computer gear while you are out!!), then the possibility of real communication is worth the effort.
  25. AnonLover Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    if it sounds too good to be true, it most likely is.

    ^^^THIS plus the following, to ensure it's truely intended to be an open discussion and not a "handling" session...

    • Draw up a list of your terms re: logistics, curcumstances, etc. that they must agree to else no deal
    • Enlist the aide of the police as well as a formal negotiator neutral to both sides to play mediator
    • There should be more than 1 reporter else your setting that lone person up for fair game
    • An exchange of objectives from both sides should happen before hand so that an agreement can be reached to hear each other out on the stated objectives.
    • Both the terms of the meeting and the stated objectives of both sides should be published in the media before the meeting goes down. Both sides should confirm to the media that a consensus on said terms/objectives is agreed upon.
    • They fail to abide by the agreed upon terms or stray from their stated objectives, get up and leave

    if you play it this way, and the naysayers up here are right - their only goal in making this offer is being able to "handle you", they'll back out & refuse to go along with it. at which point you got the scud footmissile for an awesome PR edge that they arent willing to negotiate in which case you'll probably get alot more satsfaction taking that story to the press than what you'll accomplish with a sit down meeting anyway.

    and if us naysayers are wrong and they are willing to meet on equal ground, well then it should be totally even all ways around: 3anon + internet streamed in, 3 Co$ plus miscavige or davis or whoever streamed in, 3 reporters & their film crews, 1 mediator that runs the debate fairly, and however many cops the police feel would be needed. no way in hell they'll agree to this you say? exactly the point - proof positive that no way in hell has enough shit gone down yet for it to be the proper time yet for a formal sitdown debate/negotiation. aadded bonus - you set a precedent that we will "handle them" if they aren't prepared to drop the attack mentality & sabotage methods.
  26. anon2487 Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    This.

    It ticks all the boxes, with none of the downsides (of which there are some pretty big uns (legal and black PR); and they can't say that we're unreasonable by refusing to meet.
  27. not2old2bitch Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    What is there to talk about and discuss? Terms of surrender? Rules of engagement? Truce? Change? Airing of grievances? Seriously WTF is there to talk about? Hubbard has made it very clear, change nothing, doing so is a HIGH CRIME. Change cannot happen in scientology without its demise.

    They know why you are out there, they've grabbed the fliers, they've seen the signs, protests, the news, and have spammed every mention of scientology and scientologists with their attempts at misinformation.

    There are few, if any misconceptions on their part. IMO. And the people running the cult, are willing to use this org as fodder in order to protect their interests.

    We know their mindset, their methods and they are factually excellent liars. scientologists go so far as to deny being scientologists when its convenient for them.

    If this is to be done, and for the record I think its equivalent to talking to a wall and pointless, then someone skilled in negotiations/debate must be present, and someone that knows the law should be present to help you.

    Do not go into the dragons lair looking for gold, you're gonna get burned.

    The ego boost has a flip side, massive foot bullets that effect everyone.
  28. Anon23517 Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I haven't read all 10 pages yet, but this is my 2cents as an Australian anon and as an older anon.

    1. If they were genuinely interested in setting up some sort of dialogue, why did they trail you all over Sydney, patiently removing the posters you put up?

    2. If they were genuinely interested in setting up some sort of dialogue, why did the other guy run away from you?

    3. If they really, genuinely, honestly want to set this up and air grievances, reach middle ground, blah, blah, blah, then they would have come to you immediately upon seeing you on the street, not after you'd been flyering along Darling Harbour with them trailing in your wake and taking down all the fliers on the poles.

    I don't buy this proposition from them as legit for one minute. Less than a minute, tbh. I'm going to echo everyone and say it's a trap.

    You ask how it's going to look (and this is a general 'you', not a specific 'you',) if you don't agree to meet. Honestly, do you care? This isn't going to end up as being some sort of peace talk, it's going to be tense, stressful and each side is going to be watching the other like a hawk. The potential for trouble here is enormous. I understand you want to help the rank and file Sea Org/Scios, and yes, we all do, but I do not think that is a legitimate approach on their behalf to the movement as a whole in Australia or internationally.

    tl;dr, don't buy it, it's a trap, they're giving you honey instead of vinegar to attract you where they can handle you.
  29. AnonOutreach Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    ^^^^this

    The guy you are speaking to hasn't the POWER to address Anonymous' grievances. Only David Miscavage can do that.

    They're offering NOT to negotiate--but to use you to shut up Anonymous in the area.

    You can also demand a negotiator you BOTH agree on from Amnesty International if they have any there. This is reasonable on your part--refusal is unreasonable on theirs. Demand media.

    Unless that org is willing to break away from the main CoS and PROVE it--there's nothing to discuss.

    Tell them you want David Miscavage in a PUBLIC forum with Anonymous. He's the only one who can change the policies that are abusing these people. And 10 minutes after that, we expect to see his entire managements' resignation:anon:

    Otherwise this will end in tears.
  30. Zenster Member

  31. anon2487 Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    ...or this, with the proviso that they realise you speak only for yourself and the site (not the members)
  32. Robert S Member

  33. felinonymous Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    I want to have your kittens too.

    You are absolutely correct. The challenge must be answered. PERIOD. Otherwise, we get the footbullet. Doing it the way you suggest insures that they get to keep the footbullet.
  34. CantPickaName Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    If you want to do this then thats your choice

    I for one would not..They cant be trusted one bit..They have something up their sleeves
  35. anonymized Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    ^^^^
    This is the attitude which will certainly NOT bring any kind of good PR, showing us to be reasonable and 'grown-up' about handling conflicts...

    The midget would know about this unless his whole crew was working against him, so that's not an option imho.

    ^^^^
    And this. To all the folks complaining about the possible negative "we tried, but bawww" spin after such a convo, it has now been documented that they've made the move to initiate some sort of dialogue. They could spin it even better if the offer was declined, and with more credibility. This is/was an unaviodable situation, and declining an opportunity to discuss doesn't help us PR-wise (again, imho).

    Suggestion: Get something in writing to the effect that you're speaking only as an individual, that this is not a negotiation of any sort, and that they will NOT try to spin any media shit on how they "tried to negotiate, but bawww". Signed by someone who is a proven scilon. Then show it to the media if they try that kind of shit.

    I actually like the idea of a convo, and I think Tamphex will do a splendid job if he goes at it well prepared AND WITH BACKUP in the form of cams, cams, cams, cams, cams, legal dude and a few other critics. Oh, and CAMS.

    Good luck if you decide to go through with it.
  36. CantPickaName Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    one scenario of this is

    Everything will seem to go well...we all see that...more of us do these talks...meanwhile they are re-editing all their footage of these meetings to show to their members to portray us as the bad guy
  37. Anon23517 Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    Okay, now I have read all 10 pages and I still say no, no, no and again, NO. Bad idea is bad. I can hear alarm bells and the Robot shouting "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!"

    All of OCMB are apparently against it, the ex's on Enturb are against it - all of them with excellent reasons why, so I reiterate my previous comment.

  38. Fear Not Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    So go as concerned citizens, not enturb or anon.
    Public place. Speak for 15-30 minutes each without the other side interrupting.
    Possible to ask for police or city council person present (or something equivalent in Australia)
    State your business both sides and then leave it at that.
    Otherwise it will turn into a shit fest.

    Its been done before, Tory’s and Barb and Scienos came to discussion at Humanist Society meeting here at Vimeo…
    Scientology: Tory and Barb in San Diego 1/5 on Vimeo
  39. anonymoose Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org

    To people talking about negative PR for anon if we don't do this- rubbish. Read the thread! These kind of offers for talks have been happening in other countries, where they've already been ignored with no further consequence.

    Scilons bawwwww that we won't talk to them and manage to get press interest in such a non-story? Unlikely. But even if they do, we tell the press about fairgame. We tell them about "handling", about bullbaiting. We refer them to the Panorama documentary. We show them CoS doesn't negotiate- quote L Ron.

    Anyone who thinks there's a major meedja story in "protesters don't talk to protested" is kidding themselves.

    Nothing will come of this except film of an Anon/some Anons saying they want to destroy the church, to be used as propaganda to spread to the very staff and public Scientologists we want to make LEAVE THE CHURCH.
  40. Shellback Member

    Re: "Let's talk" - an offer to meet & discuss from the Sea Org


    I hear you;

    So spake Hubbard;

    "So we listen. We add up associations of people with people. When a push against Scientology starts somewhere, we go over the people involved and weed them out. Push vanishes."

    - L. Ron Hubbard, MANUAL OF JUSTICE, 1959

    I still think listening to them talk (to a point) is not a bad thing. You don't have to agree to anything, you don't even have to comment. They will say whatever they want to say and (if past experience is a guide) they will not listen to one word from the other side.

    I would do it, my only stipulation would be that a record (film, audio, text or all of the above) would be available to all participants with the understanding that it would go public. They can spin all they want but they cannot verify squat.

    They have 50 years of history, the Anons have only a few years and none of this is (arguably) coordinated or directed from a controlling "officer." All of Scientology's actions can me attributed to a central source. This gives the Anon a huge advantage and they know it.

    So (TL;DR) They will not negotiate, they will spew.
    Let them spew, it might be amusing to hear what they have to say.
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