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"Let's bitch about Southern/Confederate History!" NSFW warning

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by KittyKatSpanker, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. Thank you for giving me a reason to post Lynchings from the time of Jim crow:

    http://www.spiritualpilgrim.net/04_...e-Roaring-20s/14a_Fast-Changing-America-2.htm

    Negro-lynching-in-Indiana_1930.jpg
  2. The Internet Member

    At least Jim Crow blacks could get married. They could learn to read and write.

    Marriage and education for chattel slaves was forbidden by law. Those are just words on a page; you have to think about that for a time before you start to feel the horror of it.

    I can't imagine greed alone is enough to drive an ordinary person to enact laws denying marriage and education to millions of people. Fear must have been a part of the mix.
  3. The Internet Member

    I recently learned that the German Nazis studied US law as they developed their own racial caste system.

    But wait, no! Colonel MoneyBags of Savannah was not an oppressor! All who spoke of the Colonel noted his learning and gentle manner.

    The real oppressor forcing independent and noble southerners into a war they did not seek was that wicked so-called United States of America!

    Also Jim Crow was Lincoln's fault.
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  4. Here are some Stupid fucks: Where did his teeth go ?

  5. The Internet Member

    Racism and lynchings are a fun tangent but they don't help the point I'm trying to make about the bullshit taught to children in southern schools. We can't blame southerners for racism and lynchings. But we can blame them for teaching lies to children.

    I've been working here to fix two lies so far:
    1. The north tried to force the south to change its lifestyle using an army and threats. The south didn't like being bullied so they rebelled as any self-respecting people would do.
    2. The Confederate rebellion wasn't treasonous.
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  6. I post them as an argument to take those shitty statues down.

  7. The Internet Member

    You have a point. But you can probably guess what Johnny_Reb would reply to your point. He would say, "Those lynchings were horrible! May the people who did that burn in hell!"

    Johnny_Reb would say the monuments to Confederate soldiers do not represent slavery or racism or Jim Crow or lynchings. He would say the monuments simply represent historical fact. Removing the monuments won't stop racism but it will make people less mindful of their heritage facts.
  8. Aren't Lynchings part of confederate culture ?

  9. The Internet Member

    To be fair, not the whole of it. I actually associate lynchings more with Jim Crow than the Confederacy.

    It's complicated sorting out what things "mean" because Confederacy memes served the Jim Crow cause.

    Problem is, the Confederacy, like the cake, was a lie. We gotta get those lies out of there.
  10. The Internet Member

    ...But the UDC’s [United Daughters of the Confederacy] most important and lasting contribution was in shaping the public perceptions of the war, an effort that was begun shortly after the war by a Confederate veterans’ group called the United Confederate Veterans (which later became the Sons of Confederate Veterans—also still around, and thirty thousand members strong). The central article of faith in this effort was that the South had not fought to preserve slavery, and that this false accusation was an effort to smear the reputation of the South’s gallant leaders. In the early years of the twentieth century the main spokesperson for this point of view was a formidable Athens, Georgia, school principal named Mildred Lewis Rutherford (or Miss Milly, as she is known to UDC members), who traveled the South speaking, organizing essay contests, and soliciting oral histories of the war from veterans, seeking the vindication of the lost cause “with a political fervor that would rival the ministry of propaganda in any 20th century dictatorship,” Blight writes.

    Miss Milly’s burning passion was ensuring that Southern youngsters learned the “correct” version of what the war was all about and why it had happened—a version carefully vetted to exclude “lies” and “distortions” perpetrated by anti-Southern textbook authors. To that end, in 1920 she wrote a book entitled “The Truths of History”—a compendium of cherry-picked facts, friendly opinions, and quotes taken out of context, sprinkled with nuggets of information history books have often found convenient to ignore. Among other things, “The Truths of History” asserts that Abraham Lincoln was a mediocre intellect, that the South’s interest in expanding slavery to Western states was its benevolent desire to acquire territory for the slaves it planned to free, and that the Ku Klux Klan was a peaceful group whose only goal was maintaining public order. One of Rutherford’s “authorities” on slavery was British writer William Makepeace Thackeray, who visited Richmond on a tour of the Southern states during the 1850s and sent home a buoyant description of the slaves who attended him: “So free, so happy! I saw them dressed on Sunday in their Sunday best—far better dressed than English tenants of the working class are in their holiday attire.”

    But presenting the “correct” version of history was only half the battle; the other half was preventing “incorrect” versions from ever infiltrating Southern schools. Before the Civil War, education was strictly a private and/or local affair. After the Civil War, it became a subject of federal interest. The first federal agency devoted to education was authorized by President Ulysses S. Grant in 1867, and Congress passed several laws in the 1870s aimed at establishing a national education system. White Southerners reacted to all this with a renewed determination to prevent outsiders from maligning the reputation of their gallant fighting men by writing textbooks especially for Southern students. One postwar author was none other than Alexander Stephens, former vice president of the Confederacy, whose portrayal of the war sounds remarkably like the version you hear from many Southerners and political conservatives today: it was a noble but doomed effort on the part of the South to preserve self-government against federal intrusion, and it had little to do with slavery. (This was the same Alexander Stephens who had proclaimed in 1861 that slavery was the “cornerstone” of Southern society and “the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.”)

    As the UDC gained in political clout, its members lobbied legislatures in Texas, Mississippi, North and South Carolina, and Florida to ban the purchase of textbooks that portrayed the South in anything less than heroic terms, or that contradicted any of the lost cause’s basic assertions. Its reach extended not just to public schools but to tenured academia—a little-known chapter of its propaganda effort is detailed by James Cobb in his 2005 book “Away Down South: A History of Southern Identity.” Cobb recounts how in 1911, for instance, University of Florida history professor Enoch Banks wrote an essay for the New York Independent suggesting that slavery was the cause of secession; Banks was forced by the ensuing public outcry to resign. Perhaps Banks should have seen that coming: seven years earlier, William E. Dodd, a history professor at Virginia’s Randolph-Macon College, had complained that to merely suggest the confederacy might not have been a noble enterprise led by lofty-minded statesmen “is to invite not only criticism but enforced resignation.” Dodd himself would later migrate to the University of Chicago, where he established a Northern outpost for Southerners who were interested in a serious examination of Southern history. Such scholarship was not encouraged back home: the first postwar society of Southern historians was created in 1869 for the explicit purpose of vindicating the confederate cause...

    http://www.salon.com/2013/03/16/the_south_still_lies_about_the_civil_war/
  11. The Internet Member

    The Confederate "Lost Cause" bullshit is a cancer within our country that threatens national security. Everywhere you turn now there are "patriot" groups getting drunk on lies about US government "tyranny." Fake Confederate history serves as the "convincer," as the con artists like to say.

    Alt-right leader Richard Spencer's wife is from the former USSR and her history suggests she's still serving the KGB. She translated the works of Alexander Dugin into English, for one.

    http://www.newsweek.com/leaders-cha...-protest-all-have-ties-russian-fascist-651384

    It's time we recognize Russian active measures in the US before we become Ukraine. It's time we recognize how glorifying armed rebellion within our own country makes us vulnerable to foreign influence and control. To save ourselves we have to get a lot better and sniffing out and rejecting manipulative narratives built on lies, like the tired old "lost cause" narrative.
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  12. The Internet Member

    Just some Kool-Aid:
    This is lie #3 we should add to the list above: the notion that Confederate secession was legal.

  13. Hey, when was Jefferson Davis released from federal prison?
  14. Sooo...what am I being pardoned of?
  15. I am pleasantly surprised to read that coming from you.
  16. The Internet Member

    This conversation would be easier if you would just make the point you want to make. Seems like you are trying to say that official US documents from US authorities using the word "treason" to describe the Confederate rebellion aren't real or something.
  17. The Internet Member

    I wonder why you would blame Abraham Lincoln for Jim Crow, because the poor man was, you know, dead when people did Jim Crow laws.

    I don't blame people alive today for anything that happened before they were born. I generally only blame people for stuff they actually do while alive.


  18. You are 'pardoned' of the 'offence' of not conceding the historical facts - when you do, in fact, concede them.

    The Internet expresses the point I was trying to make in my mock-Presidential proclamation.

    Your point, as I understand it, is that there was no treason if no-one was convicted of the crime.

    The historical record says otherwise.
  19. The Internet Member

    I double checked. President Johnson didn't say, "alleged." So the treason is legit.

    I have seen revisionists arguing that secesion is legal. But that's like saying national suicide is legal. Good luck with that.

    Maybe a situation would arise where the US government and a state or states would mutually agree to dissolve the existing union in order to form two new distinct unions. The mutuality of that process would form the basis for its legality. But without mutuality all you've got is force --by definition, as secession is a rejection of a shared rule of law.

    I heard there was a Supreme Court ruling on secession at some point after the war. They said, "no," but I don't know their argument.

    I don't see how a nation could endure if it declared armed rebellion a perfectly reasonable response to political frustrations. Has there ever been such a thing on our planet?
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  20. The Internet Member

    Oh hey, I found that Supreme Court secession ruling. It's Texas v. White.
    Damn I love it when I think something through and then I see an expert reaching the same conclusion. It's like checking the answers at the back of the book and finding out I did the math right.
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  21. The Internet Member

    Oh lookie here, Texas v White describes Confederate organized crime and fraud. Why am I not surprised.
    I wonder how many money scams those assholes ran. Good on that Anonymous Texas Unionist for alerting the US Treasury.

    To recap the lies defeated in this thread so far:

    1. The north tried to force the south to change its lifestyle using an army and threats. The south didn't like being bullied so they rebelled as any self-respecting people would do.
    2. The Confederate rebellion wasn't treasonous.
    3. Secession was legal.

    Maybe dox for #1 are a bit thin and I need to fetch something...
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  22. https://www.biography.com/people/jefferson-davis-9267899

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  23. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    NSFW warning added to the thread title for historical photos.
  24. Yep, some strange fruit hangin from them trees back in the day.
  25. Dont look at the bodies, look at the expressions on the mob. If there is any doubt in your mind about the Confederate statues being intimidation, look. The bodies were left hanging to intimidate. " look what we do to uppity niggers."
  26. http://www.tennessean.com/story/new...-protester-wearing-shirt-his-image/575272001/

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  27. If this man turns out to be a racist I am done with your south:

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