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"Let's bitch about Southern/Confederate History!" NSFW warning

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by KittyKatSpanker, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. The Internet Member

    Oh you.

    At first I was like, is Dis telling me she doesn't see a contradiction between "Davis is not guilty of rebellion" and "everybody knows Davis led a rebellion"?

    But then I was like, "D'OH!"
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  2. Johnny's no doubt meditating on whether he ought to Concede the Point, but I'm sure he's gon' rise again.
  3. Hay guise,

    Is JohnnyReb still arguing for the totally Federalist and anti-States' rights position that every locale should follow his one-size-fits-all solution of having the local constituents vote to settle this question of monument removal?

    Because that just seems totally disrespectful of the authori-tah of locally elected officials who could very well have the power to remove monuments under their local laws, codes, and regulations, without need of putting it up to constituents.

    A lot of these locales probably have public safety clauses that give their local officials wide latitude in their powers regarding public spaces. Baltimore's mayor claimed such an ordinance gave them the power to remove their monuments.

    So forcing those local officials to put it up to a vote of their constituents would be a curtailment of this sort of power that various localities may have given their local officials, and since JohnnyReb thinks this one-size-fits-all solution should be followed everywhere, nationwide, regardless of those potentially pre-existing local powers, JohnnyReb IS A YANKEE FEDERALIST! Better turn that uniform in for BLUE, mister, or explain to me how your one-size-fits-all solution is somehow also in line with states' rights.
  4. The Internet Member

    Ornery, I know Johnny_Reb like a brother and could probably speak for him --and I may have to because he's probably got more important things to do IRL right now. Message boarding is fail when IRL is busy.

    Still I hope he comes back because he is my brother in sprit and I want to help him escape that cultish mindset that has ensnared him. If he escapes he can help others to escape.
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  5. Quote:

    The [city] council voted nearly unanimously this month to remove the sculpture immediately, but then a federal judge granted a temporary injunction against removal.
    Although that order was dissolved a day later, further delays followed.
    End Quote.


    A vote of duly elected local officials took place, and they voted to remove the statue. Everything seems in order here; they followed due process. There's no need to force them to make all of their constituents vote; in fact, doing that would probably be a disruption of the due process that already took place.
  6. The Internet Member

    Yeah I could imagine spending a few minutes looking at that one. But I gotta say, I prefer icons of boyhood hero worship in non political settings.

    At some point humans are expected to graduate from childhood and enter a community of peers. That's what we see when we look at the Founding Fathers, a collection of peers.

    The "American experiment" based leadership upon peer review and consent rather than some mystical superiority within the leader. But that Robert E. Lee sculpture says, "Honor thy Father, little man."
  7. Disambiguation Global Moderator

  8. http://wtvr.com/2017/09/15/monument-avenue-residents-leaving-before-lee-statue-rally/
    That's a wise teacher

    That's a wise mayor. He's supporting free speech in tough times.

    "“I urge Virginians who have no reason to be in the vicinity of these protests to steer clear of the parts of Monument Avenue where it will be held so that law enforcement can perform the task of keeping people safe,” he added."
  9. The Internet Member

    ICP are still a thing?
  10. Posting this for "The Internet"

    AMERICAN%2BFLAG-TRAITOR%2527S%2BRAG.jpg
  11. THE AMERCAN CIVIL WAR WILL AT LAST BE ENDED WHEN ALL CONFEDERATE STATUES COME DOWN


    cjFmxSOK_400x400.jpeg
  12. I didn't say that and I won't.

    But a life was still lost.
  13. Not without one hell of a fight!

  14. Tinfoil hats on everyone!
  15. You don't know a single thing about me!

    And yeah IRL is rather busy at the moment.

    "Cultish mindset"? Seriously?
  16. The Internet Member

    The objective is not to destroy Confederate monuments but to re-define certain civic areas as spaces where we represent who we are as a people today. The Confederate cause is something we defeated so memorials in honor of the Confederacy don't belong in front of city hall.

    It's better to move these historical artifacts to a cemetery, a museum, or a private park. These are places for appreciating the past without the added implicit meaning of civic honor here in modern times.
  17. Not destroy, just move to a less glorifying envirement. Cemetery or Museum

    View attachment 15034160534081.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=

    Attached Files:

  18. I agree. If only more people thought like that...

    He's not the mayor. He's the Governor of the state of Virginia and a shity one at that.

    "“I urge Virginians who have no reason to be in the vicinity of these protests to steer clear of the parts of Monument Avenue where it will be held so that law enforcement can perform the task of keeping people safe,” he added."[/quote]

    Good thing he told people to stay away.
  19. The Internet Member

    Sectarianism is a problem in science, history, journalism --all areas of rational inquiry, really. Because the universe we share is one thing.

    Sects or schools of thought at odds with other points of view crop up naturally at the bleeding edge of current human understanding of some matter. But as we learn more the sects should fade along with our ignorance.

    When we see sectarianism within historical scholarship hanging on for 150 years, something has gone wrong. You might call it cultishness or crankery or crackpottery. I'm not a psychoceramics expert and can't say which term is best.

    Johnny, I know you well enough to predict the arguments you would make in response to some of KKS's posts, as I demonstrated earlier in this thread to your agreement.
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  20. But that's still the wish of certain people like what happened in Durham, NC and Columbus, OH.

    Now the monuments aren't even safe on battlefields.

    http://www.heraldmailmedia.com/news...cle_a906ec34-9c9f-11e7-aa6a-376828caa2b5.html

    The removal of one monument paves the way for other monuments to be removed.

    And there are plenty Confederate monuments on our battlefields.
  21. I honestly cannot take you seriously anymore...
  22. The Internet Member

    From your link, Johnny:
    A figure of Robert E. Lee mounted on a horse standing upon the Antietam National Battlefield will make people think Lee was actively riding around participating in the battle of Antietam, which is incorrect. Further, this is a modern statue with no historical value. So it should be moved to another location.
  23. The Internet Member

    Do you understand that sectarianism is nothing to be proud of?

    Maybe you believe in "teach the controversy!" like the antivaxxers, the young Earth creationists, and the Holocaust deniers.
  24. He personally led his men down the very road that is nearby and it even says so on the monument.

    So would you like to tell me where you would like to have it removed to?
  25. I'll have to agree with the monument being removed because during the battle Lee's hand was in a sling because he had fallen off of his horse Traveller a few weeks before.


    7308fbf0b7f12eac8b5f1ea453e3a9c2.jpg

    General Lee speaking with Colonel Gordon of the 6th Alabama Infantry Regiment. (painting by artist and historian Don Trioni)
  26. The Internet Member

    So we have two opposing claims:

    1. An article by someone named "Dan Delaney" which says, "Historians have said the statue is inaccurate because Lee fell before the Sept. 17, 1862, battle and was unable to mount a horse. In addition, the statue is on a part of the battlefield that was held by Union troops."

    2. Some writing on the Robert E. Lee statue that says Lee led his men down a nearby road.

    Both these claims can't be correct. Do I know which one is right? No, I don't. But maybe you have dox to back your position that the second claim is correct.

    Edit: I see you found a picture showing Lee had an injured arm. Cool. Sounds like we agree on this point.
  27. The Internet Member

    Here's a photograph of Confederates at Antietam in 1862.
    Antietam_Battle Bloody_Lane 1862.jpg

    The bodies of those boys in gray make me sad. I'm sure it must have been even more wrenching for the soldiers who lived through this destruction.

    The Civil war was "brother against brother," quite literally in some cases. This is why Lincoln urged forgiveness rather than prosecution of the Confederates long before the war's conclusion.
  28. Are you serious right now??
  29. Perhaps you should look at them in color then.

    21743525_355015638245013_5840957662685138977_o.jpg
  30. But let's forget about them and honor our brave Union boys instead!

    Let's remove every Confederate monument and replace it with a Union one!
  31. How about a monument to General Ivan Turchin in Athens, Alabama!

    Wouldn't that just be swell?

    Turchin.jpg
  32. The Internet Member

    It's a lot of work to go through your links to find out if each particular case of monument removal outrages history or not. This is why I like people who do some copypasta instead of just a nekkid link. The copypasta reassures me the person read and thought about the info he's linking to so probably my time will not be wasted.

    So... I guess I will start with this top one. It says that two Confederate monuments located in Forest Hill Cemetery in Madison WI are to be replaced because they're too worshipful of the Confederate cause.
    Forest Hill Cemetery is both a cemetery and a national park of historical significance where people take kids to teach them about the civil war. So in this case I agree with the decision to tone down the Lost Cause propaganda because it's, well, wrong-headed.

    I'm going to assume you put your strongest case of outrage at the top of all those links so I don't have to spend time on the others.
  33. The Internet Member

    Now you are exaggerating my position.

    I agree with the mayor of Madison WI, quoted in your linked article:

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