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Kyle Brennan vs Scientology: Oral arguments in Jacksonville September 14

Discussion in 'Kyle Brennan' started by Anonymous, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Darth Xander Member

    Btw, I've had the distinct privilege and honor of meeting Kyle's mother Victoria. A child could only hope to have a mother half as loving and caring as she is. I stand in awe of mothers who love their children as much as she loves hers.

    Tom Brennan, on the other hand, makes me appreciate my own father a little bit more.
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  2. lostatsea Member

    Agreed. Love to Victoria. <3
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  3. Anonymous Member

    You are much better versed on this than I however from reading the Appellants Initial Corrected Brief of Feb 16th 2011 it becomes quite disturbing. Reading the mother's log as well as the treating psychiatrists statements along with the father's statements and his own fears' of leaving Kyle alone as well as his statement he felt Kyle was a suicide risk. However he still left Kyle alone know of these risks along with a loaded weapon on the premises. Kyle stated to his uncle he had been taking the medication prior to his arrival and wished to continue the taking the drug.

    The treating physician stated that because of the known actions of the drug Lexapro that Kyle could go 48-72hrs without taking the drug. As long as the drug were re-introduced before the lapse of the 72hr period Kyle would remain stable. However the abrupt withdrawal coupled with Kyle's fear he could no longer access the drug ie. the father locking it in his trunk. That this could have precipitated Kyle's suicide who had a known medical diagnoses of schizophrenia as well as depression as well as depression. I think the medical diagnose of schizophrenia easily puts this the realm of the layman educated through a jury trial to be able to come to a determination of guilt by any associated parties at a trial.

    Maybe there are earlier filings I am unaware of otherwise I feel the judge was incorrect in that there were to many inferences to be drawn by a jury trial. I believe his mothers' case does not rely upon esoteric arguments or evidence that could not be placed into context and a verdict rendered by the average American.

    I understand that our laws' are cold blooded yet it clearly appears that a jury should hear the evidence and draw a conclusion. For a judge to arbitrarily dismiss this case in essence by his inference that a common jury could not conceptualize the circumstances surrounding this man's death is incorrect.
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  4. Darth Xander Member

    Hey I agree the story is very sad and tragic. About Brennan leaving Kyle alone, then the question becomes does he owe his son any duty such that he incurs liability for leaving a gun around the apartment? Regarding the medication, the judge just said there's no evidence that he kept on taking the medication.

    I'm not posting to defend the judge or rile people up. I'm just responding to other posts and trying to fill in some gaps to help people understand the legal issues.

    Judges keep cases from going to trial for the reasons this judge did all the time. We'll see what the 11th Circuit thinks about it.
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  5. Anonymous Member

    Oh, I never ever thought you were defending the scum it was just reading that document I referred to above I think shows the judge was wrong. It quite clearly appears a jury would be able to place the evidence as well as the testimony into context and find a verdict of guilt or innocence.

    I realize quite a few judges are megalomaniacs who think they are god however I find fault in this judge arbitrarily dismissing this case in particular.
  6. anonymous612 Member

    So, I tl;dred the last page or so because legalese makes me irrationally angry,

    For the record, the main crux of the argument about whether Kyle was taking his medication was that the bottle his mother filled was from CVS but the bottle they found with him was Walmart. And they know how many pills each one had. So if, for instance, he just had the Walmart bottle, sixty pills missing wouldn't be enough for him to be taking them regularly, but Walmart AND CVS, 120 pills would be. (And that's not the number of pills that were missing, just giving an example).

    Additionally one of the strong symptoms of that particular medication is sleepiness, so Lirot went through all these examples of Kyle's dad and aunt and so on and so forth complaining about him sleeping all the time as evidence he was taking enough of the pills to have an effect. Plus both psychiatrists apparently gave statements saying that taking the medicine seven days in a row would be enough to build up a lasting effect...which would result in a crash during sudden withdrawel.

    Basically, Scientology's side was claiming that 1) Kyle's mom was mistaken and the bottle she thought she got from CVS was actually the same Walmart bottle, thus meaning Kyle wasn't taking his pills regularly, 2) Kyle willingly gave up the medication (extensive debate over the use of the phrase "I took his medication" vs "he gave me the medication" in the police report), and 3) there would have been no sudden crash from withdrawal, so it wasn't the removal of the meds that caused the suicide.

    That's plus the whole duty issue, which tbh made Potter come across as a gigantic asshole.

    Also there is nothing better than seeing a Scientology lawyer have to say the line "Well, he took the medication, but he didn't take the medication..." Srsly, wtf.
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  7. Anonymous Member

    I'm beginning to think that, based on my understanding of what happened with Kyle and what little I know about what is required by a judge for a case, that instinct and even common sense tell us that Tom Brennan's actions helped lead to the death of his son -- whether the death was suicide or otherwise.

    At the same time, it sounds like what is known and can be proven may not be enough for a judge to decide that the Church of Scientology and/or Tom Brennan are culpable in Kyle's death.

    That's not to say that there isn't evidence that makes sense to most of us, but that it can't be used successfully in a court case against the "Church" and/or Tom Brennan.
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  8. Anonymous Member

    ^ That I believe is for a Jury to Decide not a judge let the case be heard by a jury trial!
  9. Anonymous Member

    Exactly. But that's the problem. To be heard before a jury, certain things have to happen.

    How many other cases do we know of where a jury would surely find a would-be defendant guilty, but for whatever reasons a judge won't let it go to trial for reasons that make sense to lawyers (even if they wish the thing would be heard by a jury anyway) but absolutely nobody else?
  10. moarxenu Member

    This is such a illuminating and thoughtful discussion I really appreciate everyone's questions and insights particularly our lawfags.

    There is an important part of the story that is barely mentioned which is Kyle's first stay in CW 15 Aug 2006 to 7 Sep. In May Denise Miscavige became Brennan's auditor. In June he found out Kyle was seeing a psych. IN July he invited Kyle to take a semester off and live with him. It was a deceit. The sole purpose was to handle Kyle because Tom was PTS and could not do auditing with Denise or any training. Very embarrassing for him as a staffer at the West Tampa and Denise as a Scientology celebrity.

    So Tom and his girlfriend Wendy (a staffer from NY in CW for advanced cult studies and a friend of Denise, who introduced him to Brennan) tried to handle Kyle for three weeks straight attempting to get him to take a personality test. The handling culminated in an argument after which Kyle first learned that he was an SP and Enemy of the Church of Scientology followed by Brennan threatening him with physical violence and terrorizing him.

    Kyle resisted all of this as he was to resist attempts to handle him on his last trip to CW. But his heroism and awesomeness has been nearly obliterated by the circus over disqualifying Ken Dandar. We need to recover Kyle from the lies and distortions told about him by Detective Bohling and Brennan and his sisters.

    Anon has written Kyle was Schizophrenic and it is very important to kill that lie. Kyle was diagnosed only with mild depression and functioning well on Lexapro. He received a major psychic would he had to deal with from the attempted handling and terrorization of the first visit.

    He was not a "deeply troubled young man". He was a young man the age of many anons, who had been brutalized as a direct result of cult demands to handle him. They are entirely responsible for the traumatic stress he endured.

    The diagnosis of Kyle as Schizophrenic is a fabrication of Bohling and it is mind-boggling. Marti Scholl was the medical examiner and arrived at the crime scene about 30 minutes after the police arrived. It was her job to determine the cause of death, and she falsely declared Kyle a suicide. She said that she did so because the police told her there was a suicide note, and there was no suicide note.

    If she had not officially declared him a suicide then Bohling would have been forced to investigate a suspicious violent death and among other things would have swabbed Brennan's hands for a Gun Shot Residue test to confirm whether or not he pulled the trigger on the weapon that killed Kyle. Bohling blocked even the processing of a GSR for Kyle so there is no evidence that he pulled the trigger on any weapon.

    So it is incorrect to say, "Kyle was killed (let alone committed suicide) with his father's .357 Magnum." All you can say is that he was found dead with his father's weapon lying nearby. With no fingerprints there is no evidence of suicide or that the .357 was used. Even more disturbing in Jerry Gentile's KR dated the day after Kyle's death there is no mention of a .357. The weapon is consistently referred to as a Special .8, another popular hand gun with a slightly larger bore.

    Bohling instructed Scholl to confirm Kyle's diagnosis with his psych, Dr. Stephen McNamara. She left a msg, but McNamara says in his depo that he never returned the call and never returned the call and never spoke to Scholl or anyone else in CW. He added, that schizophrenics are not even capable of making airline reservations and buying tickets as Kyle did for his journey.

    So Bohling lied. And he lied about every report of Kyle condition from people who interacted with him on his trip.

    It is important to kill the meme that Kyle experienced suicidal ideation. There is zero evidence of that. Only once is it mentioned and that is by Brennan to Victoria in a conversation a day or two after Kyle's arrival in CW. It was the first Victoria had heard any mention of suicide so he grilled Brennan and admitted he had no evidence Kyle was expressing suicidal ideation.

    I think Brennan's assertion that he was afraid to leave Kyle alone is complete bullshit. He was working flogging cult literature at the Florida State Fair for five and a half hours every night Kyle was there and during the day had to take care of his handyman's business.

    muldrake wrote I and could not agree more:

    My personal belief, and it differs somewhat from the briefs, is that liability lies here because Thomas Brennan and Scientology are responsible for the existence of the injury, that is, the removal of necessary psychiatric medication. Therefore, they were responsible to remove from the premises items like handguns that resulted in the ultimate and fatal injury against Kyle Brennan.

    Whether Kyle's death was a suicide or a homicide, as Brennan's lawyer declared to the court, Scientology is completely responsible for his death. They either drove him to suicide or killed him, as horrifying and unthinkable as that is.

    If I understand our lawfags correctly the appeals judges will make their decision solely on the basis of matters of law and not of fact. I find this seriously disturbing because of Bohling's investigation and lie-filled report. But apparently it is no concern of the appeals judges that the defendants lied repeatedly under oath.

    They and judge Merryday freely quote from Bohling's report and Brennan's account of Kyle last days as if they are completely reliable and their accounts are totally accurate.

    In his order for dismissal Merryday wrote:

    Assuming that Kyle's father and the other Scientologists are liars Scientology's respnsibility is possible, but this theoretical and remote possibility [sic!!!] is unsupported evidence and reasonable and direct inference from the evidence.

    This sentence indicates to me that Merryday did not even bother to read let alone study the depositions which reveal not only Brennan, Miscavige, and Gentile, but Bohling are the grossest of liars.

    So there are two questions in my mind:

    1. What does an appeals judge like Frank Hull (a woman) do if she bothers to read the depos and discover just how thoroughly they have lied?

    2. What recourse to find answers and justice for Kyle does Victoria have if the appeal is denied despite the massive lying evident in the depos themselves?
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  11. Anonymous Member

    Wasn't Kyle also talking to the FBI? That's where the cult being interested in his downfall starts making a lot of sense.
  12. Anonymous Member

    ^ Thank you for the information above is there more you might be aware of if possible. Even if they did hide conceal or remove evidence the autopsy would be quite interesting.
    Was the wound;
    1. A Contact Wound
    2. A Close Contact Wound

    Most if not all suicides with a firearm are found to be, "A Close Contact Wound" as the weapon of choice is held very close to the to the head. If it were to be found it was a,"Contact Wound", this would point to it being an assassination or quite simply murder. This should be available to whomever has seen or read the autopsy as these characteristics are always pointed out in the final report from the coroner.

    Also what was the experience level of the detective who performed so horribly during the processing of the scene?
  13. Anonymous Member

    Yes. When Kyle was 12 Victoria and Brennan separated. Brennan returned to the cult after an absence of >20 years (he had been a staffer in Miami for two or three years in his early twenties).

    He started going up to DC for (expensive) re-cultification and basically started all over again. And he started embezzling money from the family catering company.

    In 2000 when Kyle was 14 Brennan started a fire in his apartment which destroyed his and 3 other apartments and which conveniently destroyed all the business papers that would have incriminated him.

    The embezzlements and probable arson would be known to every auditor (including Denise Miscavige), ethics officers, and OSAbot he interacted with and through endless writing up of his overts and withholds.

    During the August 2006 visit Kyle experienced Brennan as completely cultified and in full cult mode as a staffer and saw how the cult had turned him into a degraded being. In part to save him from the evil cult, Kyle set out on his two and a half month journey to contact the FBI and attempted to pursuade them to investigate.

    Kyle called both the Ivy Gardens complex where the fire took place and the FBI during his last days in Clearwater. Brennan only discovered this two or three days before his death, and he freaked out. Kyle refused to tell him why he was calling the FBI.

    This was far more serious that him being a psych patient among other things because of the possibility about public scandal for Denise Miscavige.. It would have demanded immediate handling. Perhaps this is connected to his death.
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  14. Darth Xander Member

    IMHO,

    1. The three judges are free to review the record and come to their own conclusions about whether there are sufficient facts to support the plaintiff's claims. For example, the trial judge said the only direct evidence he found regarding the seizure of Kyle's meds is a statement from Tom Brennan that Kyle voluntarily surrendered them to him. The judges could read through the record and say there is evidence to suggest Kyle did not in fact voluntarily surrender his meds. Or they could say there is evidence the Scilons knew about Kyle's meds, etc. etc.

    2. Couple of things:

    -Lirot could petition for a rehearing by the full 11th Circuit and then file an appeal with the Supreme Court.
    -Interested parties could push for Clearwater PD to reopen the case as a possible homicide.
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  15. anonymous612 Member

    That's going to be tough if Bohling is still around (and he is, to my understanding).
  16. YouSeeNothing Member

    "the trial judge said the only direct evidence he found regarding the seizure of Kyle's meds is a statement from Tom Brennan that Kyle voluntarily surrendered them to him. " One of the appellate judges said the same thing. Lirot added that Brennan "took" the meds and locked them in his car. They seemed to be focused on the meaning of "took".
  17. YouSeeNothing Member

    I was going to ask about reopening the criminal case. Are all of the depositions viewable anywhere or is that not for public consumption?
  18. Eudae Member

    Hey, I have a friend of mine who writes in my college's newspaper. If I persuaded him that this is a story worth covering, it might raise a lot of public support (we have 50,000+ students).

    What would I tell him, and who would I refer him to for more information? Should he contact Victoria, MoarXenu, one of the judges?
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  19. Darth Xander Member

    What happened with Kyle's meds is a pretty important question in this case.

    Eudae, I'd suggest you put him in touch with MoarXenu for starters.
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  20. YouSeeNothing Member

    It really is hinged on that one statement by Brennan. I would love to review all of his statements that were admitted.
  21. anonymous612 Member

    I second MoarXenu.

    And YouSeeNothing, the fact that the depositions aren't exactly openly available is part of the problem, remember?
  22. Darth Xander Member

    So when are we getting a look at pics Six?
  23. anonymous612 Member

    When you stop being a jerk. So...sometime next year?
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  24. Darth Xander Member

  25. YouSeeNothing Member

    Now we're all being punished. :)
  26. anonymous612 Member

    Actually I kind of forgot why we were screwing with you and figured I'd wait for someone else's resolve to crack and let them post first.
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  27. Darth Xander Member

    Is is the free breakfasts you get when I'm in town? The free coffee?
  28. anonymous612 Member

    Scilon coffee.
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  29. Anonymous Member

    Hope you go for it, and so does your friend <3
    In my "if only" world, Kyle's story would be good material for a show like (the cheesy but popular) 48 Hours Mysteries, where they try to work out cases and explain them in such a way that is both true and reasonably easy to understand.

    Also, I like to mention Kyle when I protest, but -- and despite the fact that the case is not simple -- try to find a Readers Digest Condensed version of the story I can tell in a 1 +2 = 3 way for people who ask about Kyle but only want to linger for 30 or so seconds.
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  30. Anonymous Member

    One of the weirdest things in the medical examiner's report is that Kyle was shot from above. We are are apparently expected to believe that Kyle (presumably in a suicidal funk) carefully held his hand up so the bullet passed from high to low.

    Um, no. So who pulled the trigger? Could it be .... Satan OSA?

    As for Bohling. He is a trained detective. Two years after Kyle's death he investigated the actual suicide of Joseph Michael Harns, and his investigation was a model of professional detective work.

    Unlike the case of Kyle, Bohling performed Gun Shot Residue tests on both the deceased and the relative who found him.
  31. YouSeeNothing Member

    I'm guessing that wasn't a cult-related case.
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  32. anonymous612 Member

    TBH -- and I hate to tinfoil like this, but... -- Bohling's actions on this case are so bizarre I'd be forced to argue maliciousness, not incompetence.
  33. YouSeeNothing Member

    One thing I've learned is that when it comes to Scientology, paranoia is validated.
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  34. moarxenu Member

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  35. anonymous612 Member

    ...you never mentioned Peter Mansell testified.

    Shoot, I'm going to need to make some popcorn for this.
  36. Darth Xander Member

    Peter James Mansell? He sure did.
  37. Anonymous Member

    Shot from Above wow that sounds more like murder than suicide the ME would have also described the type of entry wound either Contact or Close Contact. Even botched suicide attempts which I am aware of have been attempted and failed however Never from above the head.
  38. Parrishgolfer Member

    How could he possibly keep his job after this injustice? That's even more disgusting!
  39. YouSeeNothing Member

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  40. anonymous612 Member

    Hey, Peetie's not a citizen after all this time? Sweet. Where do I sign the petition to have him deported?
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