Kyle Brennan vs Scientology: Oral arguments in Jacksonville September 14

Discussion in 'Kyle Brennan' started by Anonymous, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Random guy Member


    While the blow that finally topple the cult will (at least in my mind) likely come from a courtroom, those cases would never have gotten to where they are without the public at large being informed. Good work is good!
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  2. anonymous612 Member

    Posting from my phone so forgive any typing errors. To answer your question....we got here so late that we had to go right into court and missed out on real we gave into temptation to do something we always wanted and shoot for a 24hr or approx 24hr protest. Glad to see your alt. Transport worked out eudae. Will post more when we get home...tomorrow.
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  3. Anonymous Member

    My comment was out of concern for the anon in question :)
    Stay safe, guise.
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  4. YouSeeNothing Member

    You guise be careful out there.
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  5. anonymous612 Member

    Also fuck you anonwalker. You bet the CLEARWATER police ignored us....considering this is JACKSONVILLE.
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  6. muldrake Member

    Nicely argued by Lirot. While I remain skeptical of the outcome, Lirot made the best argument he could with the case as it stands. If it's possible to win this case, Lirot did what was necessary, attacking the right points.

    Hope the panel liked it as much as I did.
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  7. anonymous612 Member

    checking in again. We need to print more fliers...anyone know where a fedex kinkos is in jacksonville? Muldrake: next time don't dress like an osa guy. And try being polite and introducing yourself.
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  8. Anonymous Member

    kinkos near Duval County Clerk of Courts, 330 East Bay St # 103, Jacksonville, FL 32202
    Looks real close
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  9. Anonymous Member

  10. anonymous612 Member

    Thanks for that, will use

    Thank god the rain stopped, its been sprinkling.
  11. lostatsea Member

    You were there? Nice. :)
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  12. muldrake Member

    No, I was basing my impression on this blog post on Jonny Jacobsen's site, as well as the documents linked from it and this site, which also has a lot of documents from the site.

    Appeals cases are generally decided on the papers, but good oral argument gives a lawyer an opportunity to underscore the case's best points, which Lirot apparently did.
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  13. anonymous612 Member

    Still here, still having irl lulz. Weathers cooled down. Soooo nice. Thsnks again for the kinkos, we doubled our fliers. Muldrake wtf at judging how well today went based on dox from before today.
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  14. Darth Xander Member

    I can't believe you guys are still there given how early the day started for you all. And you said the Tally trip would be a death trip. I'm very impressed with your stamina (although I'm pretty sure AMA is snoring on a bench somewhere).
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  15. anon walker Moderator

    yeah, whatever. Like the cult doesn't influence police departments anywhere they have a modicum of influence, right?

    CWPD, still sucks at some levels, rocks at others. Not h8in CWPD. Just the ones who don't do their jobs. Add Jacksonville to the list of asshole cops not doin the jerb they are paid to do. Really? No residue test?
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  16. Darth Xander Member

    Just FYI AW: Six confused your original criticism of the handling of the Kyle Brennan case by Clearwater PD as criticism of the Jacksonville police.

    Please don't hurt me Six.
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  17. anonymous612 Member

    :( Getting tired. Xander: revenge will be had. Barb: go fuck yourself. The JSO has been great.
  18. Darth Xander Member

    If I was with you I'd be whining to go home like a little kid. Can't believe you guys are still there!
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  19. amaX Member

    6 let me use her phone to post. bench nice.
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  20. Anonymous Member

    You go Ama & 6 your just catching your second wind now it get's easier by the minute.
  21. tigeratbay Member

    I'm so happy that you were there Eudae. Wish I could've made it but couldn't. Thanks for your sharing your interesting experience of the day.
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  22. sallysock Member

    You all are awesome.
    Hugs to Kyle's mom.
    Such good people.
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  23. Darth Xander Member

    tigeratbay! i miss you. see you next month! raid raid raid! i owe you pizza.

    Six's phone is dying/dead. I believe they are finally heading home. Can't wait for pics!
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  24. tigeratbay Member

    I sure wish I was there to support Victoria and others. Actually looks like it had a good turnout. They were in my prayers. Eager to see and read more about it.

    I'm glad I was home for Tony O's parting blog (sort of) Made many friends there and Tony is the best. Lots of kudos, discussion and farewells.
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  25. YouSeeNothing Member

    Um, where's the Clearwater crew?
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  26. Darth Xander Member

    Let's go ladies. We're waiting...
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  27. YouSeeNothing Member

    Lirot, "our" attorney, had a great line during the hearing. I mean court-room-drama movie-worthy. When Potter, the scilon attorney, was explaining how Kyle's father was not necessarily responsible to save Kyle's life, he said (not verbatim), "If someone is drowning in a pool, I am not required to save their life." In Lirot's response, he said, "You may not be required to save someone's life, but you certainly can't remove their life preserver (in response to the fact that Kyle's dad took, and locked his meds in the trunk of his car.)"
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  28. Darth Xander Member

    Tom Brennan is such a piece of shit. I don't know how that guy lives with himself (and I'm not even talking about him taking Kyle's meds away). Scientology can have him.
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  29. moarxenu Member

    I wish you had been there. It would have been good for a lawyer familiar with Scientology to give a report. YouSeeNothing just posted this while I was writing this post and it bears repeating.

    Lirot, "our" attorney, had a great line during the hearing. I mean court-room-drama movie-worthy. When Potter, the scilon attorney, was explaining how Kyle's father was not necessarily responsible to save Kyle's life, he said (not verbatim), "If someone is drowning in a pool, I am not required to save their life." In Lirot's response, he said, "You may be required to save someone's life, but you certainly can't remove their life preserver (in response to the fact that Kyle's dad took, and locked his meds in the trunk of his car.)

    I would appreciate your thoughts on judges deciding on the papers. Does "papers" include depositions? It is clear from Judge Merryday's order for msj he didn't bother to study them. If he had he would have realized that Detective Bohling lied massively in his report about the investigation and would not have granted msj.

    So basically neither he nor the sciloon defendants are credible. Discovering this does not require a PhD - any industrious high school student could see this because it is all in the depositions. If you read Detective Bohling's report and then read his deposition it is all quite clear.

    Fundamentally he lied about Dr. McNamara's diagnosis of Kyle turning him from a mildly depressed college student into "an incipient Schizophrenic with pananoia and delusions." McNamara states, of course, that this was not only false but he never spoke with anyone in Clearwater at all.

    So I am wondering whether the judges will even bother to study the depos or just the attorneys' briefs.

    Also, Joe Childs of TBT was there. LOL! Enturbulated scilons are enturbulated.
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  30. Darth Xander Member

    Briefs. Appeals are limited to issues of law, not fact. All the appellate judges are interested in (or are suppose to be) is whether the trial judge correctly applied the law. IMHO, he did not. But that's a question for the 11th Circuit to answer.
  31. muldrake Member

    The standard of review for the law is de novo, meaning that the appeals court does not defer in the least to the trial court's interpretation of the law. If the appellate panel believes the trial court was wrong on the law, it reverses it.

    Appeals courts review some other kinds of decision, known as "discretionary" decisions, for "abuse of discretion," a higher standard. These include things like decisions to admit evidence and most procedural decisions about how to conduct a trial.

    The standard of review for facts, though, is highly deferential. An appeals court defers to the findings of fact that the trial court made, unless they are, in the words used in most jurisdictions, "clearly erroneous." The result is that most factual determinations by the trial court are upheld, even if the appellate panel would have, themselves, made a different finding.

    The "papers" include both the briefs and the appendices provided by the parties. This may include deposition testimony. The appeals court generally only has the material provided to it by the parties. It doesn't go down to the trial court and go searching for other materials. In fact, it would be improper for it to do so.

    The issue in this case is what is often called a "mixed question of fact and law." Because the hurdle to appealing a factual issue is nearly insurmountable, Lirot did what a good appellate lawyer does: he made it as much about the law as possible. While also arguing that the trial court got the facts wrong, he argued that the trial court got the law wrong by deciding, itself, facts that should have been left to the jury.

    His argument is, essentially, that a reasonable jury could examine these facts and decide in his client's favor. To uphold summary judgment, the appellate panel will have to find that no reasonable jury could decide in his client's favor. They have no obligation to defer to the trial court's findings in this matter, since this is a question of law.

    Alternately, the appellate panel could decide that the trial court got the facts wrong. Don't expect this.

    EDIT: Additionally, one of the major issues is whether Kyle's dad actually had a "duty of care." This is not a moral issue, because he clearly morally had that duty. It is whether there can be legal liability for his failure to do something. Even a parent generally does not have a freestanding duty of care to their adult children, who are presumed to be responsible for their own wellbeing at that point. The plaintiff's argument is, at least in part, that the duty of care springs from Kyle's father's actual actions (and the actions of the cult) that created the danger to Kyle.

    In short, you don't have a duty of care to a random drowning stranger. You can walk on by without fear of liability. If, however, you actually pushed them in the river yourself, you are liable, not just for what you actually did, but your subsequent failure to act.
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  32. Darth Xander Member

    I'm a little rusty on this case, but as I recall the legal question is whether the case raised any questions that needed to be answered by a jury. The judge reached conclusions on issues that the plaintiff/appellant argued are the exclusive province of a jury.

    1. Foreseeability of injury when an anti-depressant is abruptly discontinued or withheld from a disabled adult.
    2. Whether Mr. Brennan owed a duty to his son as a guest.
    3. Whether David Miscavige's twin sister and other Flag officials failed to fulfill any duty owed to Kyle.
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  33. YouSeeNothing Member

    This line: ""You may be required to save someone's life, but you certainly can't remove their life preserver (in response to the fact..." should read as: You may not be required to save someone's life, but you certainly can't remove their life preserver (in response to the fact..."
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  34. anon walker Moderator

    Oh, grow up. "Go fuck yourself," how original. Try employing some creativity next time, your prose is stale and predictable. And try to stay on-topic. You can do that, can't you? Or would you prefer flailing around telling people to fuck off like a big internet tuff gai?
  35. Anonymous Member

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  36. YouSeeNothing Member

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  37. anonymous612 Member

    I could never look predictable next to you, Xenubarb, you manage that too well on your own. Accusing cops of being assholes and not doing their job when I know for a fact you have zero information about what happened? That is very, very you.

    We had a wonderful time dealing with the JSO and everything in that regard went exactly as I had hoped. Actually, better than I hoped. I've never seen protests start up in a new Florida city without having to talk the police into letting us wear masks...until we went to Jacksonville. We even had a soloraider for a long time and I would never have let that happen if the JSO hadn't been so great and on the ball.

    So yeah, gonna have to stick with "Barb: Go fuck yourself."
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  38. Anonymous Member

    I love a good catfight!
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  39. Anonymous Member

    Quick, someone wake AMA up so we can have a 3 way!
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  40. moarxenu Member

    oh my. I thought this thread was about some 20-year-old kid who got killed by the cult.
    @Muldrake. Thanks for your lucid clarifications. There are really helpful.
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