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kendra's scientology story (ESK)

Discussion in 'Translation and Text Composition Projects' started by indeedindeed, Apr 2, 2008.

  1. indeedindeed Member

    kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    so, this is a draft we're still working on, it should be checked and judged before being used.

    it has been sent to ESK april 24th.

    i propose to do any further improvement on the wiki page anonimo created, its linked somewhere down the thread.

    the current version inside this posting won't be changed any more, so any further changes should imo be done at the wiki.

    -----------

    ok, here is my idea how we can make sure that within the next week or the next ten days this gets to ESK in a reasonable fashion:

    the phase this process is currently undergoing is marked in green. right now this is phase three as it's april 24th.

    1) As soon as i will have gone through all remarks made regarding parts that didnt have remarks upon them so far and there's one day of silence i will go through the texts as they are at that point and repair anything i see as really problematic.
    Should this point not be reached until it's april 20th the next phase will start at that point.
    2) After going through the entire text i will put out the question, whether someone sees anything as a large problem (like incoherent sentences or inacceptable translations etc.) or spelling mistakes. these will be adressed, if this isnt finished within 3 days (so april 23rd max) we will have to see how to proceed, but most likely i will go to step 3 anyways
    3) I will then (so april 24th max) send the text to ESK and notify Kendra Wiseman via PM as well.

    After this the text can be put to a wiki and can still be improved further and when we have a really excellent version who knows when this can be sent again.

    For future translation projects a wiki is a better idea than how it was done here, i now agree to this. But for now, lets keep it that way and i suggest to proceed in the way explained above. I will also update the first post with this.

    -----------

    any criticism, own drafts, pointing out of mistakes, problems, missing parts or alternatives is certainly welcome- however, sometimes there are reasons for decisions being made, but these are of course up to discussion as well. maybe there can be an entry in the costruth wiki too. a general problem was the translation of technical scientology terms. I've chosen "Ihr" as the addressing form of "you" instead of "Sie".
    And most important of all ;) i didnt translate "I still love the pants off of you." word for word.

    I've switched to "das Frisbee" after I had a look at several online dictionaries:
    www7.dict.cc thinks its male, langua.de Deutsch Englisch Wörterbuch thinks its neuter and so does Wörterbuch Englisch Deutsch. Ãœbersetzung. -these were the first three results- so i think its safe to say its not female. i thought it was male, but alright, neuter then.

    I also tried to use "Sicherheitsüberprüfung" consistently instead of "Sicherheits-Check" or "Sec-Check".

    now including all six chunks

    The original text can be found in four parts here:
    [1]
    [2]
    [3]
    [4]

  2. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    second part

    now updated up to the first chunk (up to 6th paragraph)

  3. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    third part:

    now including all nine bunches -i changed my mind on one point though "Er widersprach entschieden" should be left in the translation at the point when her Dad said she should stay in bed with the sickness.

  4. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    last part:

    now updated up to the first seven bunches - changed my mind at some points, like "Meine Eltern haben gesagt, dass sie eine „SP“-Erklärung unterstützen würden, sollte diese ausgesprochen werden." was changed to "Meine Eltern haben gesagt, dass sie eine SP-Erklärung unterstützen würden, sollte diese herausgegeben werden."

  5. anonimo Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Wow, what a huge translation work... Kudus to the big effort!
    I will start reading it asap. Looking forward to it. Now, I'm just too tired for this kind of thing... :)

    anonimo
  6. Ann O'Nymous Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Great ! I will transmit it when it has benn checked.
  7. Anonymous Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    I can proofread it tonight after classes. I'm not an expert in German, but I've been studying it for 6 years in school.
  8. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    thanks anonimo and lulzymous.

    Ann O'Nymous 2, i will pm you when it is done or -if i cannot reach you or maybe anyway in addition- put a message into this thread and the general ESK translation thread.
  9. albinocat Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    I will have a look too. Great job so far.
  10. Fleischmann Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Germanfag here. Even though I only read your translation (an epic effort!) once right now, I'd say you did an excellent job!
  11. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    as my original declaration vanished in the mists of the recent outage i hereby solemnly declare once again:

    i'll try to translate the Declaration of Astra Woodcraft, but dont know when it will be done, so dont let that deter anybody from having a try at it her- or himself.
  12. Anonymous Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Keinen Fehler fand ich mit den Übersetzungen. Der einzige Vorschlag, den ich habe, ist, dass du "Suppressive Person" statt "unterdrückerischen Person" verwenden soll. Aber abgesehen davon, sehr gut gemacht!
  13. anonimo Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Comment on indeedindeed's translation draft,
    page 1, first chunk from "My name is Kendra Wiseman" until
    "confirm all of this information on Google if the mood takes you"
    --------------------------------------------


    Hell, it has been only 4 paragraphs and I couldn't stop myself from doing a lot suggestions and also some corrections. I hope I'm not being too much of a perfectionist here. Please tell, then I'll post the things of less importance later and we focus on the more important now. It would be no problem...

    By the way, indeedindeed, you've done a great job. I'm glad we've such a dedicated translator.

    Slight preference to a less strong from "... und ich bin's verdammt satt. I don't know I just see it more appropriate, but won't insist upon it.

    --------------------------

    1. I would not put Anoynmous in "...", I don't really see it necessary. But I must admit I don't know the rules about it.
    2. I prefer "dank" as it is more than stating the reason. It's true that the word will be repeated in the next sentence, but the same happens in the English version. "aufgrund" also sounds more "formal"
    3. Not too sure about this one: "Handlungen" sounds a bit stiff to me. Most of all, we were protesting, flyering etc., so I think "Aktionen" could be a good alternative. ("Aktivitäten" isn't a real alternative I think)
    4. Äußerungen with ß
    5. I don't know what "speak up" means but "nicht länger zu schweigen" could be an alternative, but the word "Schweigen" was already used shortly before, so maybe it should stay as it is.
    6. Comma after "Internet-Aktivisten"
    7. "vor kurzem" with non-capital "k" (I was not sure but google helped me)

    So, it could look like this, but I maybe the first version is preferred still:
    Vor kurzem habe ich mich dank der Aktionen von Anonymous, einer Gruppe von Internet-Aktivisten, und der öffentlichen Äusserungen von...

    -------------------------
    Just add that comma after "spreche"

    ------------------------
    I'm not sure but the part with "hoffe" sounds a bit strange in this context, maybe a bit too colloquial, but I might be wrong. My suggestion "...mit denen ich hoffentlich eines Tages einen Kaffee trinken gehe(n werde).

    ------------------------
    I'm not a big fan of noun-heavy syntax so I suggest an alternative. But maybe we can postpone discussing it if you don't agree, in order to finish the translation until April 12. I'm afraid I'm too perfectionist with this. I'll add (###) to such style issues that might as well be discussed at a later moment in time.

    "Dadurch, dass ich hervortrete und auf diese Weise offen rede, verschließe ich sehr wahrscheinlich de facto die Tür zu jeder Chance, die ich vielleicht noch hatte, jemals wieder mit meinen Eltern zu reden."
    ------------------------
    Aber ich habe inzwischen keine Angst mehr davor

    -------------------

    1. comma needs to be added after "bin"
    2. Personal preferance: "Gelegenheit" instead of "Chance", also because we used "Chance" above
    3. I think "kennen zu lernen" with the new spelling rules, I'm not totally sure
    -------------------
    You didn't include the three little dots... I'm so fond of little dots :)

    anonimo
  14. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    anonimo,

    just keep going its good to name it all no matter how small -or big- as long as you point out whats how important to you wherever you regard these distinctions as important.

    lulzymous,

    im not sure whats the technical term for "suppressive person" in german scientology language, but i wanted to translate the meaning in any case. but i recognize it as a problem and will think about it. should you find additional mistakes, got remarks or else, dont hesitate to mention them. thanks for looking at the text!
  15. Anonymous Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    I got lost in all the quote boxes, so here's a suggestion for the dispute of:
    "Vielen Dank auch an Astra Woodcraft and Jenna Miscavige-Hill, mit denen ich hoffe, eines Tages Kaffee trinken zu gehen."

    *Vielen Dank auch an Astra Woodcraft and Jenna Miscavige-Hill, mit denen ich mich darauf freue, eines Tages Kaffee trinken zu gehen*

    It's not a literal translation, but I think it conveys the same message.
  16. anonimo Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    I understand it might look complicated at first glance. But actually I did it so that the reader doesn't have to switch less between my posting, the indeedindeed's translation and Kendra' original. Instead, I give all the relevant parts with my comment.

    So I labelled the quotation boxes: original and indeedindeed. I changed it now in my above posting. Now it's
    - "indeedindeed's first translation draft"
    - "Kendra's original text"
    - or simply the nick of a person writing in this thread to quote his comment
    Hope that helps...

    Well, this doedn't change it too much I think. The problem is that "mit denen ich hoffe" or "mit denen ich mich darauf freue" sounds a bit like "together the three of us we hope to share a coffee with someday". The thing is, the German construction used by indeedindeed may be common in colloquial spoken German, but looks a bit awkward in written to me. But I might be wrong about that. It's not that important after all.
  17. Fleischmann Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Maybe I'll attempt a translation on Richard's Scientology Story. Is there some sort of deadline? I don't know how much time I can devote for the task, since the next weeks/months will be a tad busy for me.
  18. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    great that you might attempt this! no, there is no deadline, there are the protests of april 12th though. but i think the main audience that are going to read this are people visiting www.exscientologykids.com in the aftermath. so of course its good to have it rather sooner than later, but this is imho more of a longterm project and it may well be better to present a better translation two days later than present something produced in hectic as soon as humanly possible. and theres also this: any translation at any point of time is better than none. so take your time and have fun with it!

    what i would like to see though is to have a good version of this translation up on ESK at april 12th. i think this is actually a pretty realistic goal.

    maybe some version of Astra Woodcrafts story can be compiled until then. i think ill get at least a decent first draft ready within next week, so then we would have two texts in german versions and people might be directed to that website, too and could use it without understanding english.
  19. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    this post is concerning anonimo's comments and remarks.

    if we dont have a wiki for this i think ill just change my first draft via edit as long as there is agreement to a change. this would be the procedure i'd propose for this specific translation.

    another proposal: the priority on your side would be to go through the rest of the text -provided you got the time and are willing to do it of course- before answering to this answer of mine, because imo we need to go to breadth before we go to depth.

    i agreed with most of the changes, sometimes i made remarks. this time i commented on all your propositions no matter whether i agree or disagree.

    "bin" sounds somehow wrong in my ears, i thought the correct form would be "ich hab's verdammt satt", sounds still strange, but compare these:

    "Ich habe es satt, dass"
    "Ich bin es satt, dass"

    so i think its "etwas satt haben" and not "etwas satt sein".
    maybe "und ich bin es verdammt nochmal leid" is another possibility. I haven't decided yet what i like best of this, of course everyone is invited to make comments. this goes for all of the translation by the way.

    agreed.

    alright.

    I understand, but Aktionen is something that activists (true) or even terrorists (WRONG) do, Handlungen is something thats fitting to a concerned group of citizens, which should be the way people think about anonymous upon reading this imho. from a pure linguistic point of view i completely agree, but this is the reason i chose this version. so i disagree a bit here.

    ok

    i think speak up means to not longer take something and then to talk about it. in this case it meant going public. i also thought this "Öffentlichkeit" resonated nicely with "öffentlichen Äußerungen", fiitting as essentially both of them did the same, namely to go public. i prefer it to stay that way.

    I'm pretty sure not, if this is not because of "neue Rechtschreibung": a "Komma" before "und" is only allowed when the part after the "und" can be read as self-sustaining sentence, which "der öffentlichen Äusserungen von Jenna Miscavige-Hill entschieden, an die Öffentlichkeit zu gehen" just isnt.

    if you mean by that, that you checked which one appears more often in google search i dont think thats a good measure here as i think this changed with the "neue Rechtschreibung" as "das Kurze" is in principle a noun.

    So, all in all out of these changes you proposed to which i agree, i constructed the following version:

    Vor Kurzem habe ich mich dank der Handlungen von Anonymous, einer Gruppe von Internet-Aktivisten und der öffentlichen Äußerungen von Jenna Miscavage-Hill entschieden, an die Öffentlichkeit zu gehen

    disagreement for the same reason as in my response to 6.

    agreed, out of the two possibilities you offer i prefer "mit denen ich hoffentlich eines Tages einen Kaffee trinken gehen werde."
    i agree with your comment directed at lulzymous btw who is of course invited just like everybody else to add further comments. the more the merrier.

    agreement

    agreement

    agreement

    im not sure about this. i agree in principal "Chance" shouldnt be used too often, but a "Chance" is something you definitely hope for and that is more often slim than not, while a Gelegenheit can be that way too, but is more often something that might just happen (as in "wenn sich die Gelegenheit ergibt"). and i think this is such a case where the meaning of "Chance" hits closer to home. if we use "Gelegenheit" though, i think "bekommen" should be replaced with "erhalten".

    yeah, i think you are right, but i just hate to see this. to me this change is almost severe mistreatment of language. but it probably has to be changed, especially when i have used the new spelling rules as an argument myself, so after incorporating all the proposed changes i agree to it would look like this:

    "dass ich stolz auf sie bin, und ich hoffe auch, eines Tages die Chance zu bekommen, wieder mit ihnen zu reden, sie wieder kennen zu lernen."

    i agree, this should be changed.
  20. Ann O'Nymous Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Just to let you know that I agreed with myself for the French version and anon_it dis the same for the Italian one.

    Praise for your efforts.
  21. Fleischmann Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Sure thing. Should be possible to get it done until april 12th without much hassle..
  22. anonimo Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Comment on indeedindeed's translation draft,
    page 1, second chunk from "As of today, February 8, 2008" until
    "bolt for the nearest chaplain's office if you don't."
    --------------------------------------------



    Okay, to do it clearly but quickly I'll use the following symbols within the quotations:
    [...] addition
    {...} delete (a bit hard to see, but should work)
    Following the quotation box, I'll state the importance of my suggestions. Hope it's understandable...


    "2½" looks nicer
    --------------------------------
    Suggested alternative: Während ich hier sitze, toben draußen die chinesichen Neujahrsfeierlichkeiten (-feiern),
    --> note Äußerungen with "ß"
    --------------------------------
    1. add comma
    2. delete "n"
    3. I slightly prefer sentence with "ein"
    --------------------------------
    1. though "afforded" is not "hatte", I still think in the German text it sounds more natural, not that important, more a style issue
    2. not sure about "aufgewachsen sind" as the original uses present tense, we might use the present tense maybe, if not I slightly prefer "aufwuchsen" to "aufgewachsen sind".
    --------------------------------
    Apostatin is a not acceptable. I very strongly suspect that only a small number of our readers will know the meaning of this word. In German it's very rare. The dictionary suggested "Abtrünnige" (though it might have more a political sense), I guess that might be okay (alternative "Aussteigerin" isn't perfect as well). This alternative "zu einer vom Glauben abgefallene" came to my mind after reading the Bertelsmann definition.

    --------------------------------
    1. Although Kendra didn't do it, I suggest to add (CCHR) behind the first mention of the "Citizens Commission on Human Rights" ("Mein Vater ist der Präsident der "Citizens Commission on
    Human Rights, US" (CCHR), mein Onkel ist..."). Not strong preferance, but it might make things a little clearer
    2. In the German translation I wouldn't repeat "ich" each time in the list. I understand it's a style issue to create a certain effect, but I think this effect is already created through the long listing of things that Kendra had to suffer. It's a bit easier to read.
    3. "ich wurde bis zum Umfallen sicherheitsüberprüft" sounds a bit awkward, I suggest "ich wurde bis zum Umfallen Sicherheitsüberprüfungen/-Checks unterzogen" or "ich musste bis zum Umfallen Sicherheits-Checks über mich ergehen lassen"

    --------------------------------
    Suggestion: Ich wurde dazu gebracht, mich dafür schuldig zu fühlen, ich selbst zu sein.
    --------------------------------
    1. First I wanted to suggest "aus Platzgründen" instead of "aus Gründen der Kürze", because it's sounds a bit better, but I guess it's not the same; possible alternative "um den Text nicht zu umfangreich werden zu lassen" (this isn't too important)
    2. don't like "das hier" too much in the German translation, alternative to "Text" is "Bericht" or "Dokument" (don't like a lot).
    3. "flieht zur nächsten Beratungsstelle"... hmmm... maybe "macht euch (schnell) auf zur nächsten Beratungsstelle"; "to make a bolt for" means "türmen" (=fliehen), but "to bolt" alone has more meanings[/u]
    4. also the marked commas are needed
  23. anonimo Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    I agree on this. Would you like to create a wiki page? It could make things easier for you maybe as you already seem very busy. Everyone could update the wiki every time we agree on a change. The wiki page could be very simple: just the plain German text, this would increase transparency and clearness.

    -------------------------------
    Mmmh, sounds reasonable. I only think that maybe after doing the revision of a larger chunk until I run out of concentration, sometimes I still have energy to answer your comments :)

    Okay, then I won't look at your comments right now in order to continue with another chunk of the translation...

    anonimo
  24. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    for me a wiki is not easier. i thorougly enjoy the idea of repeatedly editing my first post, its a blast, it really is... fun. but this way im structurally in control of this translation and i could imagine that people might feel uncomfortable with it and its not in the spirit of decentralisation.
    thats why i mentioned the wiki. but i truly like edit. i know i seem busy, its true, i really wish i could relax and go on vacation... but i just cant.

    evidently you manage your very own energy and will by now know just how to do this voodoo. the more the merrier methinks. anxiously awaiting all additional activity. sorry, spirit suddenly seems shockingly stupid.
    Well, whatever.
  25. anonimo Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Comment on indeedindeed's translation draft,
    page 1, third chunk from "As a young child, up until ..." until
    "...banged on the door and demanded, cajoled, and threatened until I came out."
    --------------------------------------------


    1. I think "junges Kind" is almost redundant and might as well be just "Kind" as normally with 14 years you are not referred to as a child and also because the text states the age.
    2. "was the jam" - I didn't find it in the dictinary. I don't how to translate it but I'm not completely happy with "das Ding überhaupt". My idea "die coolste Sache der Welt", but maybe this is too strong.


    --------------------------------
    1. "winzigen Zweifeln"
    2. I'm not happy with "Widerspruch" (and also with "bei einer viel kleineren Größenordnung"). It's a difficult issue, "dissent" is according to webster "difference of opinion", this might also be a small difference not totaly contrary, whereas "Widerspruch" sounds very strong and like "saying the opposite". I think we need to translate a bit more freely maintaining the meaning. "Meinungsverschiedenheit" wouldn't work. I suggest the following:

    "Das Infragestellen fängt auf einer viel niedrigeren Stufe (Ebene) / in einem viel kleinerem Rahmen an."
    I think we should gather all sentences like this one on a seperate wiki and ask others to give it a shot. Many won't go through all the text but might be willing to help with the doubts.


    --------------------------------
    1. one missing comma
    2. one missing "n"
    3. I'm pretty sure that instead of "rund um mich" it should be "um mich herum"
    4. maybe I'd translate "attend" with "nahm ... teil", but only if you agree, I'm not so sure

    --------------------------------
    "resent" might be more "sich darüber ärgern, etw. tun zu müssen" (dict.leo.org). webster.com: "to feel or express annoyance or ill will at"

    Suggestion: "...ärgerte ich mich einfach darüber, alle drei Minuten aufstehen und wie wild zu klatschen zu müssen."
    ---> note: I also put the "müssen" as I'm quite sure that "having to" refers to "stand up" and "clap" in the same way.

    --------------------------------
    1. would it be too much to include "angeblich" ("die OTs angeblich haben sollten"?
    2. you left out "all", I guess it's okay, but maybe it could be included in the German translation as well (not so important to me)
    3. I would leave out "die" infront of "Materie", I think it's more a abstract, not specific meaning

    --------------------------------
    Just a comma and a "ß".
    --------------------------------
    1. "auf eine sehr negative Weise": I think this sounds a bit complicated, why not say "sehr schlecht/negativ behandelten". I feel it's about the same meaning, but I may be wrong.
    2. "zu rufen und zu schreien": I think "rufen" is "shout" or "call" in English normally, "yell" and "scream" are stronger; also "rufen" doesn't seem appropriate in the context because it's not conveying the idea of treating s.o. in a "negative fashion". So, I plead for "zu brüllen und schreien"
    3. also one comma missing
    --------------------------------

    missing comma

    --------------------------------
    Suggested modification to: "der jemals Zugang zur "Freewinds", Scientologys Kreuzfahrtsschiff, gewährt worden war." (alternative: " - Scientologys Kreuzfahrtsschiff - "; The current version definitely looks strange to me.

    --------------------------------

    Okay, I think we need to answer an essential question. Who is our main target group with these texts? Of course it's meant to help young people who have left or are thinking about leaving Scientology. But: I think many more people that will be linked to these texts want to know and understand the stories of the ex-scientologists. So, we need to make sure they will understand as much as possible. Kendra didn't think that much about them and it's understandable. We don't want to change the text, but we need to be clearer than her in a number of parts maybe.

    Concerning the sentence: It's okay not to explain AOLA, but "Registrarin" just sound too strange, too scieno-speak to me. Either we use another word or we put in inseveral words (or we do use "Registrarin" and use a foot note, though the word makes my stomach hurt)

    Ideas for an explanation of the term:
    ---> There might be better explanation in English... but hey... maybe we simply find another word...

    --------------------------------

    1. I prefer "ich nannte es lieber" as it is more in line with Kendras slightly familiar way of writing.
    2. "berichtigte/gerechtfertigte Empörung", I think "Empörung" cannot be "rechtmäßig" (this is about the law while "righteous" is about the moral law, it's morally right)
    3. Maybe you agree that in German (and maybe in English as well) it sounds a bit strange "entschied ich mich, ... zu wollen". You can note that you "want" something, but you cannot really decide that you "want" something. It's not a real big issue, it's more about style again.

    Suggestions:
    "Das erste Mal entschied ich mit 15, Scientology zu verlassen."
    "Das erste Mal fasste ich mit 15 den Entschluss, dass ich..."
    "Das erste Mal entschloss ich mit 15, dass ich..."
    (The last two are similar to the current version, but I still prefer them, but I cannot say why exactly)

    --------------------------------
    The expression "emotionales Beirut" might be understood in the context, but I still don't think we should translate an American saying literally that in itself is very, very rare to find in google. Part of our readers will know about Israels severe attacks on Lebanon (and its capital Beirut), which I guess this saying stems from, but no, this is a no go I think (although I begin to like it). Unfortunately, it's already to late for me to think about an alternative.

    --------------------------------
    1. Suggested alternative: "vorbildliche/makellose Scientology-Schülerin"; maybe I just don't like the word "großartig" anywhere near "Scientology" :-S
    2. "hapless": I'm not very sure if this can mean "ungeduldig" (didn't find that translation). How about: glücklose, unglückliche, bedauernswerte, unzufriedene? (some references to help find a word: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
    3. Suggestion: "(laut) an die Tür klopften, forderten, auf mich einredeten und mir drohten, bis ich rauskam." (I'm not sure why you used "um ... zu"; possibly using "laut" because "banging" is a lot more than "klopfen" (knocking).

    --------------------------------

    Well, well, I need to pick up speed!!! I need to move on faster in order not to lose motivation, because it seems I will need some many days to finish. I guess, I will just mark the stylistic issues in my computer and only bring the more urgent issues to your attention in my next postings. The rest can wait until after april 12. Indeedindeed, every moment I go through this translation I realize how much work you've done and that you're very skillfull. I mean, it seems that you must have the capacity to translate rather quickly, if not you must have taken incredebly long for this (at least I would have needed really A LOT of time for this document). You come up with very good translations. Most of the time it's just polishing some rougher parts, it's personal preferance at times, often I'm not completely sure if my suggestions are better, it's as if I can judge this less the more time I spent reading the sentence.

    Okay, tomorrow probably the next part will come. If someone else wants to join in, maybe you could start reviewing at the beginning og page 2 or something, so that we don't double work.

    anonimo


    PS: I smiled when I read your last posting. I'm happy to see you the spirits up, the battery still enough charged and enjoy the collaboration. So, you seriously are in dire need of some more activity :) ? Well, although I think you're already very busy, I'll post this one and don't hesitate to complain about how deep I go into text...

    I didn't reread this posting as I normally want to, because it's already too late, so excuse me if there are some mistakes left..
  26. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    ok, here are my comments on the second bunch of remarks as put down by anonimo in #22:

    agreement

    agreement/preference

    agreement to all three, so new version would look like this:

    Leider war das Leben nicht immer so perfekt. Es war vor allem im Juli/August 2005 nicht so perfekt, als meine Familie sich dazu entschied, Scientologys Disconnection-Richtlinie umzusetzen und alle Verbindungen zu mir zu durchtrennen, was mich in China ohne Heimat, ohne nahe Verwandte und ohne ein nennenswertes Sicherheitsnetz zurückließ.

    alright, agreement. addition: if its hatte "denenigen Kinder" needs to be changed to "diejenigen Kinder" for reasons of grammatical case

    no, present tense should be kept from the original, so i agree with "aufwachsen". so with these additions the new version would look like this:

    und so hatte ich mehr Vorteile, Privilegien und Möglichkeiten als diejenigen Kindern, die in der Sea Org aufwachsen

    i agree Apostatin is not optimal. Aussteigerin is worse in my opinion, because it doesnt have the same meaning and i rather a correct teerm when looking at the phenomenon from outside of scientology, while apostate is imho a term coming from the internal religious view. "Abtrünnige" is good but "Scientology-Abtrünnige" isnt, so a slight additional change may be in order, maybe like this, which i hereby announce as my new current proposal for this:

    Jahren von einem möglichen Star für Scientology hin zu einer Abtrünnigen von Scientology entwickelt hat

    i disagree at this point. the explanation what CCHR is, is already at the beginning and in this knowledge theres no difference between english lingo and german lingo readers so i dont see a need to change it. maybe a glossary of terms might be added, but that project should be none of our immediate concerns as there are enough of those already.

    tl dr; no different situation from the original -> dont do it different here, its not an improvement, its a translation

    agreed

    alright, maybe "Sicherheitsprüfungen" is even slightly better than "Sicherheitsüberprüfungen". so now this would be the new version:

    Ich habe für CCHR gearbeitet, bin von zuhause weggerannt, ich wurde bis zum Umfallen Sicherheitsprüfungen unterzogen und wurde im Internet belästigt

    perfect!

    i understand, but "aus Platzgründen" is funny to me somehow, because what supposed to happen if she wrote more? might her harddisk start dissolving in smoke? "terminal error, one line too many, sorry kendra, was nice to have known you, but you just shouldnt have typed this line" :D
    but i see where youre going to and so i would propose here "um mich möglichst kurz zu fassen"

    dieser Text is good and i hope with this addition this text will be good too.



    i prefer the first draft version here, because "macht Euch (schnell) auf" sounds a little biblical and i think she's in fact referring at this point to possible emotional consequences for the reader while she is on face of it referring to length. the emotional consequences in the case of not being able to stand it and stopping to read might well be compared to "fliehen" thats why i will leave it at that at first.

    alright, i agree here. so after incorporating those proposed changes of you that i agree with, the new version would then look like this:

    Ich werde, um mich möglichst kurz zu fassen, große Teile meiner Geschichte auslassen, aber dieser Text wird absolut nicht kurz werden, also bitte habt Geduld mit mir, falls ihr es ertragt und falls nicht, flieht zur nächsten Beratungsstelle.
  27. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    ok, here are my comments on the third bunch of remarks as put down by anonimo in #25:

    i think this is the same in english and i think there are people that think you are a child up to the age of 18, even though "teenager" is more common. thats why i would rather not change that.

    im not completely happy with the current version either, but im not completely happy with "die coolste Sache der Welt", but i dont think its necessarily too strong. i think its a question of writing style, one person might say "das Ding überhaupt", the other person "die coolste Sache der Welt" another maybe something like "voll der Hammer" and a fourth person might say "das Beste, was es gibt" or "einfach nur großartig", which is somewhat more neutral in questions of style. I think i'll take the last version and see what it looks like; in this case the new version would look like this:

    Als junges Kind, bis ich so ungefähr 14 Jahre alt war, dachte ich, Scientology
    wäre einfach nur großartig.


    agreement

    good suggestion and better than first draft, however i think "Infragestellen" is not the same as dissent. dissent rather is the result of Infragestellen. maybe "Dissenz" as well? Widerspruch is pretty strong indeed, but remember that we're talking about the beginning of dissent. but still its better than "Widerspruch". Maybe "Hinterfragen" is even better than "Infragestellen". So, the new version would now look like this:

    Das Hinterfragen fängt auf einer sehr viel niedrigeren Stufe an. Bei diesen winzigen, nagenden Zweifeln, die man leicht wegerklären kann.

    its a good idea, but ill go along with the way we are currently doing it anyway. if there is a wiki and people put input there too thats of course great and will be put into consideration.

    agreement

    i'm not sure either. as i think this changes the style in a way i cannot assess right now -im not saying in a large or bad way, i just dont know how- i'd rather leave it the way it is now.

    ok, so after incorporating those of your proposed changes i agree with, this would be the new version:

    Zum Beispiel war ich bei diesen dreistündigen Scientology-Veranstaltungen im Shrine Auditorium, die achtmal im Jahr stattfinden, und während die 3000 Leute um mich herum vor Begeisterung glasige Augen hatten,

    i dont know about "ärgern", but its closer to the truth than "unangenehm", still i think its on the wrong side of the word, regarding that she was giving this as an example of beginning dissent on a small scale. so, I'd rather keep it, because i think its more important not to create cognitive dissonance in the reader by contrasting it with "on a small scale". so, concerning the word taken by itself your proposal is clearly better, but concerning the context, i still prefer the first draft version, even though you pointed out its problem quite well.

    I agree with the placement of "müssen" though.

    war es mir einfach unangenehm, alle drei Minuten aufstehen und wie wild zu klatschen zu müssen

    i think this is unwarranted, as its not "supposedly", but "supposed", which imho is well covered in "haben sollten". not sure of that argumentation though. but it sounds strange, so i propose a change to "die OTs hätten haben sollen"

    agreed, i ll put that in somewhere

    well, i think it is specific in this context, as she's talking about never having seen her use them. thats why i dont agree with that proposal.

    so after incorporating those of your proposals i agree with and my new proposals, the new version would look like this:

    ob meine Mutter wirklich über all diese Geisteskräfte
    verfügte, die alle OTs hätten haben sollen, um die Materie zu kontrollieren,


    agreement, so its:

    Ich dachte über die Tatsache nach, dass ich niemals wirklich außerhalb meines Körpers gewesen war, obwohl ich mich manchmal leicht im Kopf gefühlt hatte, und ich fragte mich, ob das das gleiche war.

    agreement, but i still would like to keep the second "zu", not sure though. so now it would be like this:

    Ich dachte auch über die Tatsache nach, dass es hochrangige Scientologen gab, die Andere sehr schlecht behandelten, und ich fragte mich, warum es jemand auf dieser hohen Stufe nötig haben sollte, zu brüllen und zu schreien,

    agreement: Doch diese Dinge waren alles, was ich kannte, und ich kam schnell in Scientology voran.

    i agree with the proposed change.

    I understand, but I think a glossary at the end of the text or somewhere on the page would be the way to go and then maybe putting links in the appropriate places. thats why i think we should not change the text here. In general, we should not change the text where its not necessary. A footnote might be an alternative. but if we insert explanations in the text that might have a destructive effect on the style and flow the reader is experiencing while reading this. so, im definitely against a change in the text here, but think the problem needs to be adressed at another place.

    agreement

    important point, agreement. i like your second proposal best but without "dass ich" because i think "dass" occurs a little too often in my draft anyway, so now after incorporating those changes of you i agree with -and in addition nennen->nannten because of past tense- the new version would look like this:

    Das erste Mal fasste ich mit 15 den Entschluß, Scientology zu verlassen. Manche Menschen nannten das Pubertät, ich nannte es lieber "gerechtfertigte Empörung".

    i agree that this is a no go after thinking about it, because its referring imo to something most people reading this will know even less about than about the recent conflict. i think this rather refers to the first civil war in lebanon not to the recent war of last year. I think in an american context this is most likely referring to the bomb attacks on a US military installment in october 1983 in which 241 US soldiers were killed by explosives. the situation was critical before that, so the meaning would probably be something like "Belagerung mit katastrophalem Ausgang". as we are talking about a time frame of eight months, this is probably referring to the entire situation in beirut and not that much to the explosion itself, so the idea of "Belagerung" would get to the foreground. so my new proposal would be:

    Was eigentlich ein zweimonatiger Kurs bis zu den Sommerferien hätte sein sollen, wurde zu einem achtmonatigen emotionalen Belagerungszustand mit ungewissem Ausgang.

    out of these two i prefer "vorbildlich" although it might be a bit tame compared to "star Scientology student" but than its not stressed that much in the original anyway, so a cat is fine too here.

    alright, i'll take unzufriedene.

    good suggestion, so new version -after taking one "Komma" away after "diverse", because this is not really a list of different properties- would be this:

    Zuvor war ich immer eine vorbildliche Scientology-Schülerin gewesen, aber jetzt schienen Kurse häufig damit zu enden, dass ich im Badezimmer weinte, während diverse unzufriedene Sea Org Mitglieder laut an die Tür klopften, forderten, auf mich einredeten und mir drohten, bis ich rauskam.
  28. anonimo Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Comment on indeedindeed's translation draft,
    page 1, fourth chunk from "I won't get into it too
    much, but there..." until "...All hail the frisbee."
    --------------------------------------------


    I did the changes in the wiki this time. It's easier for me and maybe it's also easier for you to see. Adding explanation and comments is a bit less clear though.

    this is the link: http://wiki.costruth.com/trans/index.php/ExScientologyKids.com_-_Kendra's_Story_German#Fourth_Chunk

    Please let me know how we do the updating, do you want to do it or do you only want to update the first postings? I could update it as well, like when we did Road to February 10.

    I also corrected one small typo at the end of chunk 3.
    The abbreviation /up1 means that I added those comments when working on the translation for the first time on this wiki. Next time it'll be /up2. This might help finding a comment that I later put to a paragraph that was already discussed.

    Yeah, and I was too detailed again, but I can't help but do the things as good as possible... Anyway, I'm going to try hard to focus on the major issues in the next chunk. But I don't know really if it would be a good idea to pass on one version to ESK around april 12 and then a final version a week later... maybe they'd dislike that wishing to get the "perfect" translation right away... Well, one part of me says fuck perfection, but...

    Gimme ur point of view, please!

    anonimo
  29. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    the part in blue is an idea how to proceed, the part in this style is relevant as well.

    i appreciate the work put in a wiki but:

    for this translation i would like to keep with the method of updating my first posting. as we have little time i feel a wiki is too susceptible to sabotage. please keep for the changes to this specific translation the format you did for the first proposals for change. but there is no need to do it with this 4th chunk as i can see it this time in the wiki.
    feel free to update there but i really would be prefer to not do it this way with this specific translation. so please do the fifth chunk and subsequent chunks the same way you did the first three. or you can do it in the wiki and i can still update the first posting anyway, but this might be confusing, i really dont know.

    besides this i have already told Ann Onymous 2 that i will send a pm when we are done and id like to prevent last minute sabotage. there certainly may be a way to prevent this while having a wiki but im too stressed out to think about the exact details and argumentations about this to the extent necessary to make a sound judgement for now.

    i agree that a wiki is superior in principle though. in a few days i think i will put the astra translation draft here and we can do it with this that way if you like as i think its a good idea in principle.

    i strongly suggest we keep with the modus operandi for this specific translation. when i put up the astra translation i will write more about this. right now is imho not the time for a change of modus operandi.

    im sorry if this comes across as rude, which is not my intention. im simply not able right now to judge all the implications of a possible change of procedure in the middle of translating this specific text. maybe we can do it with astras text, but i would really prefer to keep this at the moment for long term projects where this is clearly superior indeed.

    anyway, thanks a great lot for all the help you are provided and all the input and enthusiasm, this is a great motivation for me and im sure for others as well.
  30. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    ok, here are my comments on the fourth bunch of remarks as put down by anonimo in a wiki which is linked somewhere before. ill be a little bit of a temporary dictator for this specific translation. thats why a wiki is better in principle but i dont think i can adapt to a change with the current translation workload i have.

    agreement, except: "zu sehr", i understand, but i dont think it sounds as good.

    disagreement, as its a translation thats more correct, but it doesnt sound as good and doesnt convey the sarcasm as good.

    it sure sounds like military, and maybe thats what it is, but as we dont know i think "Trainingseinheit".

    so the new version would look like this:

    Ich werde nicht übermäßig darauf eingehen, aber es
    gibt nichts, was die Seele mehr zerstört, als immer wieder all seine Energie in eine Sache reinzustecken und
    dann gesagt zu bekommen, es sei nicht genug. Glücklicherweise liefert
    uns Scientology eine bündige Liste mit Gründen, warum jemand eine Trainingseinheit nicht abschließen kann:


    disagreement: noun in german->noun in brackets, i think the difference between the two sorts of words works better in english than in german

    disagreement, as Jetzt-Zeit sounds stranger and i think "present time" is an artificial term or at least a term strangely used and "Jetztzeit" is too normal to convey this to the reader.

    i agree with all the changes in the next bit, thats a lot of improvement! exceptions or things upon which i have remarks:

    yes, but its not "hail to the frisbee" but "all hail the frisbee". i believe this is mcbeth or something, like ancient or middleage kings-stuff. "Heil der Frisbee" is strange, i agree. your proposal: "Hoch lebe die Frisbee!" no, its not the frisbees' birthday. so lets try "Lang lebe die Frisbee!" which automatically implies Lang lebe die Tech! in the next chunk

    no, i dont think they assumed that before, what was assumed before is being described in the text. so "now" is from a point of view of content correct and i think it is clearer to leave it there.

    concerning "bei gott"- i understand, but its not directly kendra its her explaining a doctrine so maybe thats not that bad. but ill think about that, just keep it for now.

    so the new version would look like this:

    Diese drei Erklärungen mögen oberflächlich betrachtet ziemlich harmlos und irgendwie logisch erscheinen, aber die Wirkung, die sie auf einen Menschen haben, kann ziemlich hinterhältig sein. Angenommen, du willst eine Frisbee aus Blei werfen. Du schleuderst die Frisbee so stark du nur kannst, doch nach einigen Metern fällt sie einfach runter. Dein Trainer verlangt von dir, mehr zu trainieren, und das machst du auch, aber die Frisbee fliegt immer noch nicht. Dann erzählt dein Trainer dir, dass du offensichtlich nicht verstehst, wie die Frisbee funktioniert, sonst hättest du das Problem nicht. Du lernst mehr über Frisbees und du probierst es erneut, aber ohne Erfolg. Jetzt nimmt der Trainer an, dass du die Frisbee offenbar absichtlich beschädigt haben musst. Du bist jetzt ein Frisbee-Krimineller und - bei Gott - er wird sicherstellen, dass du der Justiz übergeben wirst - zu deinem eigenen Wohl und zum Wohle der Frisbee. Die ganze Zeit erzählt man dir, dass die Frisbee an sich fehlerlos ist. Lang lebe die Frisbee!
  31. anonimo Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    You are right there is a theoretical possibility of sabotage. But in fact there hasn't been a single report of this up to now and it would also be spotted immediately.

    I must admit that I did the wiki also because I found i very complicated to keep track of the changes in the thread. I thought, hopefully indeedindeed stays on top! I think you didn't update the first threads up to now, so it's not so easy to see the current version at a glance. I plead for using the wiki in future translations, in a way that we still must agree on. I hope you can update the first postings in the next few days.

    Okay, you're right. Someone might get confused if the first postings and the wiki were not synchronized. I won't update the wiki page then, I may put the translation to the discussion page though stating clearly that the most recent version can be found in the first postings of this thread. I guess this would rule out confusion...
    I will keep the modus operandi in this thread and the revision goes on as before.

    Ok, we should discuss wiki safety later in a different thread. I believe it's save and content can never be lost, you can easily undo any changes from others. But this is to be postponed for now.

    Don't worry, indeedindeed, I understand you and I know you would not treat me rude. I have a feeling I know you a bit yet through the collaborative work and PMs. :)
    But I must admit I sometimes fear to appear impolite. I think this is normal for people who try hard to be nice with each other...

    anonimo
  32. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    you're right, has been updated.
  33. anonimo Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Comment on indeedindeed's translation draft,
    page 1, fifth chunk from "Horrible analogies aside, it is" until
    "were very very cool about the whole thing.)"
    --------------------------------------------


    I think, we need to translate the bold text of the original differently. Something in the sense of "Joking aside" = " "Scherz beiseite", meaning that Kendra now comes back to serious facts.
    1. Not totally happy with the first part, but it's as close I get the meaning of the original.
    2. I think Kendra speaks more or less colloquial, I don't think she would use "Analogien" in German. I guess "Vergleiche" will do, "Gleichnisse" or "Parallelen" don't fit.
    3. I have a slight preference for "angewandt". I kind of think that things like skin cream is "angewendet" whereas more intellectual knowledge or principle are "angewandt", but both might work



    --------------------------------
    I feel that Kendra's "most fundamental assumption" is stronger which is why I suggest to introduce the sentence like that to give it more importance and somehow the italic "sie" is hightlighted better in this position. No big deal if we don't take this suggestion.
    ==> comma
    ==> "konstruiert wird" still sounds a bit strange, but I guess we just go with it

    --------------------------------
    Not natural, nor used in German.
    --------------------------------
    außer

    --------------------------------
    I think "Widerspruch" may be too strong, too extreme.

    --------------------------------
    I don't think you can call it really "trainieren".
    "just about" means "almost" here: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/just

    Alternatives:
    Nachdem ich acht Monate mit Üben verbracht hatte, immer wieder bestraft worden war und bereits Erlerntes endlos wiederholt hatte, war ich kurz davor zu explodieren.

    Nachdem ich acht Monate geübt hatte, immer wieder bestraft worden war ....

    Nach acht Monaten des Übens, wiederholten Bestrafungen und einem endlosen Neuerlernens von Dingen, die ich bereits gelernt hatte, war kurz davor zu explodieren.

    Pick one or mix them!

    --------------------------------
    "unter den Kursaufsehern"

    --------------------------------
    I wouldn't add "noch". alternative: "sprach kaum mit mir".
    --------------------------------
    --------------------------------
    either we write "Freundeskreise" above and "Freunde" below as in the original or we need to add "und Bekannten". We cannot say "Bekannte" above and "Freude" below, can we?

    --------------------------------
    Sounds a bit more natural.

    --------------------------------
    ==> comma and "ß"

    --------------------------------
    ==> comma and "das"
    ==> "erzeugt": I prefer "erschaffen" or "entwickelt" or even "hergestellt"
    ==> replace "das von" with "welches von" because there's "dass" already in the sentence before
    ==> "so treiben" is a fairly wide translation, maybe we use "hergestellt" for the first instance of "made" and "erschaffen for the "second"?

    --------------------------------
    stoked:
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=stoked
    http://www.dict.cc/?s=stoked

    --------------------------------
    ==> comma after "Wicca las"
    "be into": http://dict.leo.org/ende?search=be into&searchLoc=0&relink=on&spellToler=standard&cmpType=relaxed
    --------------------------------
    ==> above you wrote "Delphi-Akademie", too, but maybe "Delphi Academy" is better? Either way is ok.

    --------------------------------
    ==> "die ganze Angelegenheit/Sache"; "das" alone is a bit unclear

    Okay... once again... I only reread part of it (and found lots of things to adjust), so there might be some more things I missed. If something is unclear, just ask back...

    I hope very much now that some more anons would help with this translation review... I mean it's 3 more pages. So far, everything is going just fine, only that it takes looooods of time. Do you really think we should try to be ready until the 12th of april? I cannot say for sure that I can go on at that pace in the coming days...

    Good Night,

    anonimo
  34. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    i would say we should have the best version we got at that point up on ESK on that day. even if we took the version as it is now, people would check the meaning and get at least part of kendra's style.

    thats ok, any improvement we reach is a good step. when the "deadline" is approaching i'll take one more look myself on the remaining stuff and see if there is something that can obviously be improved. i plan on doing this on the 10th or 11th as Ann Onymous 2 and ESK need time as well to put it up there. we can then send them a much improved version once it is ready (after all parts are commented, back commented, remarks posted on these comments, new slight disapprovals appear like in whyweprotest which was a success in the end!) in about... six months ;) i know that this is sort of a time pressuring situation, but i believe we will have an at least decent text there in time, even if we used what we got until now.

    and this will be nothing compared to the nightmare beginning when i put out the astra first draft that will probably be of a lower quality than the kendra draft...
  35. Ann O'Nymous Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    For your information:
    - You can send your translation directly to the admin of ESK: admin@exscientologykids.com
    - The French version are only partialy online (2/3 links to the English version)
    - The Italian version are not online.
  36. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    thanks for these informations. you are right, i will send it directly.
    as there is a planned offline-period for enturb starting sometimes around the tenth, we may have to stop a little bit earlier with this type of editing. but there are still two more days till then.
  37. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    ok, here are my comments on the fifth bunch of remarks as put down by anonimo in #33:

    agreement to this change

    agreement to this change

    for now i'll take "lang lebe die Tech", because most important is to have the same wording as in the frisbee part.

    agreement.

    so the new version would be this:

    Ist diese Grundlage erst einmal vorhanden, so kann man die Last der Verantwortung überall hin verschieben, außer dorthin, wo sie hingehört.

    agreement to this change

    first of all thanks for this correction, this is really a mistake you corrected here. thanks as well for your explanation of "just about". i like the following version best, which would then become the new version -with one colon added after "davor":

    Nachdem ich acht Monate mit Üben verbracht hatte, immer wieder bestraft worden war und bereits Erlerntes endlos wiederholt hatte, war ich kurz davor, zu explodieren.

    ok, its probably better than the previous version, but im not completely sure, anyway its changed now:

    Die allgemeine Meinung unter den Kursaufsehern war, dass ich entweder eine Idiotin, eine Kriminelle oder eine Versagerin war.

    agreement to this change

    agreement to that change

    well, "peers" is afaik not the same as "friends". peers are people surrounding you, but most of the time they are friends, alright. but its not completely the same and thereby not completely obvious both terms should be the same in german. but "peers" are rather Freunde than Bekannte, ill conceed that. so, the new version would look like this, but im not entirely happy with it, as im not really sure that these peers were regarded as friedns, but probably this is really closer to the meaning, so heres the new version:

    Ich fühlte mich in meinem Freundeskreis unsicher wegen der von Scientology streng durchgesetzte Richtlinie, über die Aktivitäten von Freunden Bericht zu erstatten.

    agreement, ggod change.

    agreement to this change

    i agree with the problems concering "treiben". but i like "erzeugen" and dont like "hergestellt" as the implants are immaterial, so the new version would look like this:

    Scientology hatte mich bereits davon überzeugt, dass das Christentum ein Implantat war, das von intergalaktischen Psychiatern erzeugt worden war, und schließlich weiss ja jeder, dass alles, was intergalaktische Psychiater erschaffen haben, nicht mal in zehn Kilometer Nähe gelassen werden sollte.

    good changes, agreement.

    agreement to these changes

    agreement to these changes

    alright, i prefer "die ganze Angelegenheit", so the new version would look like this:

    dass sowohl mein Lehrer, Mike B., als auch der Ethik-Offizier bei Delphi LA die ganze Angelegenheit zu dieser Zeit sehr, sehr locker gesehen haben.

    thank you for the enormous amount of work you are putting into this.
  38. anonimo Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Comment on indeedindeed's translation draft,
    page 1, sixth chunk from "Likewise, when Celebrity Center staff " until
    "screwed up by trying something else."
    --------------------------------------------


    "Passend dazu" sounds a bit unnatural, but may be the only way to put it. Anyway, my suggestion is within the following:

    1. changes the structure quite a bit for better readability
    2. "withhold" must be explained or translated in the German version I think as it was not explained or mentioned before. Does it mean "Verbrechen" in Scilon lingo?? I guess we should add in in brackets.
    3. Shall we change "Drills" here? We may leave it because it's written in quotation marks
    --------------------------------

    1. Not totally happy with that one, but it needed change. "im Kurs" sounds like "during the course", but it's meant that Kendra engaged in other practices at the time she was going to class, I think, not during the actual course itself. Maybe you meant that, but it isn't clear. Maybe you find a better way of expressing this than my sentence.
    2. The quotation marks are needed.
    --------------------------------

    Suggestion: delete "grayed" words, insert words in brackets

    --------------------------------
    Comment on indeedindeed's translation draft,
    page 2, first chunk from "Still, I was confused" until
    "begged me to talk to them."
    --------------------------------------------


    I think "still" has a different meaning here. It has also the meaning "trotzdem" or "dennoch" and I suspect this is quite often the case when it's written in the above way. It's necessary to use this different translation because Kendra points out that inspite of the intents of convincing they couldn't convince her totally. This was causing confusion to her.
    I'm not sure if I convinced you, I begin to doubt myself. Will mark it with three ### to find this place of doubt easily later. :-S
    dict.cc Wörterbuch :: still :: Englisch-Deutsch-Übersetzung
    LEO Ergebnisse für "still"

    Maybe a combination of both version would be best. Of course no brackets in final translation.
    Or maybe "Trotz allem".
    --------------------------------
    rosa(farbene) Zettel (?) (but what does it mean??)

    --------------------------------
    not sure, but shouldn't it be "tun" in present tense? or "täten"? "taten" sound wrong to my ears

    --------------------------------

    --------------------------------

    --------------------------------
    LEO Ergebnisse für "more to"
    ==> there's more to sth. = da ist mehr an etw. dran
    ==> There's more to it than that. = Das ist noch nicht alles.

    I have a slight problem with "Hauptantrieb" but I'm not exactly sure what it is, the word sounds okay. But then I think that "Antrieb" most of the time are feelings, while specific things are more "reasons" than "Antrieb". But this is almost philosophical. If you feel totally okay and don't prefer "Hauptgrund", then leave it. I have a feeling that my linguistic intuition is abandoning me, because I definitely didn't sleep enough. :)

    "noch weitere Aspekte" may be replaced by something else...

    --------------------------------
    "good standing":
    of good standing = angesehen
    a company of good standing = eine Firma mit gutem Ansehen
    ==> Maybe "gutes Verhältnis" is close enough, I'm not too familiar with that phrase, but for now I think you picked the best option

    *I'm not totally sure about that, but the only explanation of phrases with "poopy pants" didn't go in the direction of "verschissen", please look for yourself: Urban Dictionary: poopy pants

    I could find this:
    ===> we could simply ask some native speaker...

    --------------------------------
    zu Hause

    --------------------------------
    --------------------------------
    only very slight preference for "sprechen"
    "until" implies that finally she spoke with them I think, while "dass" leaves it open if she actually spoke with them. I understand that Kendra in fact spoke with them and that she wants to say that, too

    --------------------------------
    1. note the comma after "Fall"
    2. Kaffeetisch without "-", I think
    3. "make a point" (dict.leo.org):
    to make a point ein Argument anbringen
    ** to make a point seine Ansicht durchsetzen
    ==> I'm actually not sure if your "als Argument" may not in fact be better in the end... I'll leave it to you
    4. TM: that's not needed in German; I'm rather sure Kendra was making an insider joke because Scientologists may use that phrase so often that it might be considered like their copyrighted material (just an assumption)
    5. i changed the last part considerably but I think I didn't change the meaning, it's just a more common and natural way of saying it...
    --------------------------------


    ---------
    I hope I don't sound rude or something. Normally I explained more concerning my suggestions ... but this time I wanted to do it at least a little faster and sometimes I simply put a link to the dictionary entry for you to check back. Please send me a PM if you need clarification as I'm not reading all your postings right now, because I try to focus only on translating. What I saw though looked good, it's nice to read your arguments when you don't agree with me, most of the time you convince me easily. Some things might require further discussion later on.

    Good night.

    anonimo
  39. indeedindeed Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    ok, here are my comments on the sixth bunch of remarks as put down by anonimo in #38:

    ok

    i dont think it means crime. i think its something bad thats been hidden (withheld), theres an glossary at the ESK's site and i think there are more extensive glossaries on the net, but i admit im too lazy to search for them right now. in the glossary it says: "Withhold - A secret, something bad that you haven't told anyone about."
    ESK - Scientology Glossary
    i think maybe what should be done would be a translation of the glossary, which might turn out to be quite a project for which we probably may need the help of someone that knows german scientology-lingo. for now, lets put a short explanation in brackets, normally im relcutant to this as there is none in the original, but "withhold" is self-explanatory in english, so a remark in brackets may be appropriate, something like (das Verbergen einer schlechten Tat) might suffice.

    i'd say lets leave it as it is, because of the quotation marks. when one reads the whole thing once mor we need to consider if the reader gets it, that these are the same thing we talked about before in different terms. if not, there might be a necessity to find a common term.

    i also would rather not use "herum" as it seemed to be quite a concentrated endeavour kendra was undertaking and not just sitting around.

    so the new version would look like this:

    Entsprechend der Reaktion der Akademie stürzte sich auch der Stab des Celebrity Centers sofort auf den offensichtlichen "withhold" (das Verbergen einer schlechten Tat), nachdem sie herausgefunden hatten, dass ich nachts in meinem Raum saß und auf eine Kerze starrte, und sahen darin eine Erklärung dafür, dass ich meine "Drills" nicht bestand.

    alright, except for "die". so the new version would look like this:

    Ich war mit "anderen Praktiken" beschäftigt, während ich Kurse besuchte.

    good suggestion what you wrote next and i additionally included "beinahe" instead of "beinah", so the new version would be this:

    Im Rückblick erscheint es komplett lächerlich, dass mein Interesse an Räucherstäbchen und schlechter Dichtung (ich möchte damit keine echten Wicca-Anhänger beleidigen, ich war bloß keine sehr gute) die Ursache dafür gewesen sein soll, dass ich meine E-Meter-Drills nicht bestand, doch zu dieser Zeit hatten sie mich beinahe vollständig davon überzeugt, dass ich es wirklich dadurch vermasselt hatte, dass ich etwas anderes ausprobiert hatte.

    ok, here are my comments on the first bunch of remarks for the second page as put down by anonimo in #38:

    dont do that, you already convinced me! i like this version, which is imho only slightly different fropm yours:

    Trotzdem war ich verwirrt.

    this next point is funny, i dont know why on earth i translated pink->grün. maybe that was the color of the checksheets, but i might be confusing this with astra's story, i dont know if there were any checksheets in kendra's story, there probably were some in her life anyway. maybe those were pink?

    so, the new version would look like this rosa Zettel

    agreement, so the new version would look like this:

    Würde er nicht wollen, dass wir dasselbe tun?

    i approve of this message.

    good

    well, i think ill leave "Hauptantrieb" and i think these were although specific reasons components of an eomtional build-up. i think it still sounds a bit strange if we would change it to this:

    so maybe instead of "weitere Aspekte" it may be better to say something such as "da steckt mehr dahinter"? in this case the new version would look like this:

    but this may sound conspiracy-theorist like. so right now my favorite new version looks like this:

    Nochmal: Man könnte noch mehr dazu sagen, aber die genannten Dinge waren der Hauptantrieb für mich, Scientology zu verlassen.

    i agree with your next bunch of suggestions, except for "poopy pants". its certainly not what i wrote -"total verschissen haben", very colloquial, meaning having messed up big time with no turning back-, but i dont think its what you suggested - "die Hosen voll haben", meaning being full of fear- either, even though the example you found uses it this way. the urban dictionary tells us this about "poopy pants":

    jammern, quengelig sein, i suggest: ", dass ich nur rumjammern würde."
    i dont agree with "erklärte", i prefer "verkündete", because to me "erklärte" is more something of an explanation and not an announcement. this was a pretty dramatic step and so we should use a word that shows that.

    another disagreement stems from "verschenkte" when we talk about this in the original: "They told me I was losing my chance at eternity." I had translated "Sie
    sagten mir, ich würde meine Chance auf die Ewigkeit vergeben" and now you suggest "verschenken". if we go in this direction it suggest "verschwenden", but why not simply "verlieren" as its the direct translation of "losing"?

    Ok, so this, together with the rest of your suggestions would lead to a new version that looked like this:

    Ich verkündete, dass ich nicht länger Scientologin sei. Einige Tage später fing mein Privattelefon an, ständig zu klingeln. Es waren Eltern von Freunden, die mir sagten, dass sie mich nicht mehr in ihrem Haus sehen wollten, dass ich keine Zeit mehr mit ihren Kindern verbringen dürfte und dass sich daran nichts ändern würde, bis ich wieder ein gutes Verhältnis zur Kirche hätte. Sie sagten mir, ich sei kriminell. Sie sagten mir, ich würde meine Chance auf die Ewigkeit verlieren. Sie erzählten mir, dass ich nur rumjammern würde.

    thanks to your next suggestion, the new version would look like this:

    In dieser Nacht war niemand zu Hause

    thanks to your next suggestion, the new version would look like this:

    begannen Sea Org-Mitglieder, zu uns nach Hause zu kommen.

    thanks to your next suggestion, the new version would look like this:

    Sie warteten mit meinen Eltern im Wohnzimmer solange, bis ich bereit war , mit ihnen zu sprechen.

    thanks to your next suggestion (except for "als Argument"), the new version would look like this:

    Sie versammelten sich in kleinen Gruppen um den Kaffeetisch und diskutierten meinen Fall, während ich als Argument in meinem abgeschlossenen Zimmer bei voller Lautstärke "Rage Against the Machine" hörte/spielte.

    just one further remark on this:

    i thought it was just a pick in general on the copyright-mania, but i think ive seen similar constructions in other english texts outside of this context. but its not being done in german texts, so maybe you are right. ill take it out.

    on your final suggestion: i agree in general, but i think ive found another problem with my translation:

    its good to use "verlieren" instead, but i think we havent done justice to this: my one shot at eternity, so imho its rather "dass ich im Begriff war, meine einzige Aussicht aufs ewige Leben zu verlieren". so, with this and your other suggestions the new version would look like this:

    Sie kamen tagein, tagaus. Meine Eltern, die wirklich glaubten, dass ich im Begriff war, meine einzige Aussicht aufs ewige Leben zu verlieren, indem ich die Kirche verließ, flehten mich an, mit ihnen zu reden.

    no, you dont sound rude at all.
  40. albinocat Member

    Re: kendra's scientology story (ESK)

    Ok, her is my try. I will post it in small portions to keep an overview myself.

    Original is in quotes. My comments in bold.




    Kendras Geschichte in der Scientology-Organisation

    Scientology is often named Scientology-Organisation (see page from the Senat von Hamburg). It fits very well.

    Wenn ihr regelmäßig die Foren Clambake (Operation Clambake Message Board :: Index - Operation Clambake Message Board) und EXSCN (Ex Scientologist Message Board - Powered by vBulletin) bzw. die Google-Group ARS (Discussions - alt.religion.scientology | Google Groups) um das Jahr 2005 besucht habt, kennt ihr mich vielleicht unter dem User-Namen "Emma" (nicht die Emma von den EXSCN Foren), "Emma Goldman" oder "Sarah NW".

    The names "Clambake" and "exscn" are only known by "insiders". I think it is better to add to www address. ARS is a google group (yes, I know I am pedantic).


    Ich habe sehr lange über meine Erfahrungen in der Scientology-Organisation geschwiegen und ich bin es leid länger zu untätig zu sein.

    Ab heute bin ich eine lautstarke Kritikerin der Scientology-Organisation.

    Vor Kurzem habe ich mich, ausgelöst durch die Aktivitäten von Anonymous – einer Gruppen von Internet-Aktivisten – und der veröffentlichten Zeugenaussage von Jenna Miscavige-Hill, entschieden an die Öffentlichkeit zu gehen.

    May be it would be good to explain who Jenna is.

    Ich möchte mich persönlich bei allen Mitgliedern von Anonymous bedanken. Dafür, dass sie uns Ex-Scientologisten Gehör verschaffen und dafür, dass sie mir die Sicherheit und Inspiration gegeben haben meine Geschichte zu erzählen.


    Ihr seid beide hiermit herzlich zu meiner Hochzeit eingeladen.

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