Discussion in 'Narconon' started by "Charlie Bears" daddy, Jan 4, 2013.
What is it going to take to get Justice for Graves, Holten, Wernick,Landmier and Stacy Dawn Murphy?
An honest set of judges.
Well yes that is the final piece of the puzzel, what is it going to take for Oklahoma officials to file charges on their behalf?
I think I like this thread.
I send you a hug- a big one. It is my hope that justice will come.
David Edgar Love to be all over them like white on rice
What up with the guest post following a member one?
I think I screewd that one up, I wasnt looged in? I'm new at this. and its not the Miss's notice no finger nail polish.
Is there a reason why you care, or why we should?
No worries. Welcome to WWP. You'll get used to it soon enough
I think you have to rally town people, friends, family and protestors and go to the offices of the officials and publically ask why nothing is happening and why they are still open.
Of course tape it.
A class action lawsuit against Narconon International as the parent corporation, ABLE for selling them the quackery rights and Scientology's RTC for licensing said rights to ABLE.
Yes I dream big.
Welcome "Daddy", we all hope hard justice will be served on the cult.
I was talking to someone who suggested that a bunch of singular law suits is better than a class action lawsuit.
He said when the tobacco industry was getting sued by individulas, they pushed for a class action lawsiut because individual cases would have literally shut them down. Don't know if this is true, but there you have it.
Yes, use the cult's own 80s-90s tactics against it. Very hard to defend against a sudden shitstorm of separate lolsuits, overworks the shysters.
This is not a sprint, as those of us who have been at it a while can attest. It is a marathon. We're in it to the finish however long that may be.
Personally, I think both individual cases and a class action suit is warranted and ideal way to disarm individual tentacles AND hit the heart of the beast from different but related angles at once.
The "tobacco industry" in questions was primarily Altria Group, the mega-corporation formerly known as Phillip-Morris Companies, that wasn't setup as a massive umbrella of tax exempt parent corporations distinctly separate from their secular profit centers via shell corps hidden by religious cloaking. Plus there was federal regulations put in place on that industry that was separate from the litigation that changed the game.
Because Scientology presents itself as a "church" we don't have the benefit of federal regulation that will effect the highest levels of the corporate empire and litigation is the only venue for proving that major changes are needed in the US.
So while individual cases may very well shutdown individual Narconon Centers, the shell corporations of Narconon International and ABLE may still be able skate by. And if we can't take down ABLE, we can't put a hurting on the connection to the RTC who license the quackery Narconon uses and the IAS fund raising that keeps ABLE empowered betterment programs afloat.
So while civil cases seeking to recoup fees and damages against individual centers would likely help change things in one location like Ohlahoma and Georgia where the state is looking at what regulation is needed to prevent it from happening again, that won't stop Narconon International from moving into a different state and setting up a new facility where regulations are still lacking.
But if we can get a class action going against the shell corps on one specific aspect of the licensing, like the purification rundown detox process, then a successful outcome could be used as leverage with the FDA to push for regulations on alternative medicine detox programs that would put ALL the sauna programs licensed by RTC to both church and secular venues under scrutiny.
but taking ABLE down would be SO difficult and would take a lot longer. IMO
Since most don't associate Narconon as the same as ABLE. And I am sure it is on COS's books that way on purpose. The tentacles of ABLE are vast.
If there are centers shutting down one by one, it will make it increasingly hard for the other centers to get raw meat with all the bad PR they will receive. This may be the way to go.
This is the tactic Scientology used with the IRS. Hundreds of individual lawsuits brought the IRS to its knees.
I think we should return the favor.
Class action suits make money for lawyers. I think a few hundred independent lawsuits would be way more effective in breaking Narconon.
For real? For all Narconon victims?
First, it will take that Americans stop pussyfooting around religions. A scam is a scam, no matter if the scammers are Pentecostals, Bahai or a football team. The US need to wake up to this fact. Until they do, they will be screwed over by unscrupulous bandits hiding behind a religious facade again and again.
Secondly, it will require that Americans stop pretending they live in the 18th century and start implementing a federal system for health issues like addiction like other modern states, including certification and controls. The cult exploits the current system for all it's worth, and will continue to do so as long as the US lets them.
One might argue that such changes are impossible, but I think Scientology and particularly Narconon are vile enough that it may actually force some change in this direction. As always when faced with tasks that may seem too grand, start with baby-steps. I imagine the natural place to start is to write ones local representatives and ask them to put in place laws demanding certification of drug addiction treatments and referral sites, including certification of the staff. Thanks to people David Love and the crowd over at http://reachingforthetippingpoint.net/ we now know enough about how this cult operates to put in place effective legislation.
When it comes to justice for Graves, Holten, Wernick, Landmier and Murphy, I think it is worth remembering that many of those running these scams are victims of the cult too, even despicable people like Mary Rieser. We are dealing with an utterly amoral cult, so sit back and enjoy her being thrown under the buss as the case progresses. Rieser need to be prosecuted for what she has done, but such prosecution is not an aim in itself. Rieser and her ilk are small fry, it is Narconon itself that need to be taken down. It can bed done, but it will require patience, networking, endless lobbying and dox, dox, dox.
Well yes, for all NN victims everywhere, But I was talking spacificaly about the Arrowhead Deaths. I mean, Three in less than a year and now six months since Stacy Dawn Murphy's Death and they are still operating?? wtf?? yes, Ivester wrote a law. nothing more at this time has been done that I am prevy to. he has the oppertuinity to offer it up but will not be till next month and take several months to pass if its not watered down or voted down, or let alone signed by our missing Govenor. Where is the Ok dept of mental health in this, the DA, OSBI, Sheriff Kerns? I heard alot of talk but, no action. some pour kid will lose thier life there and be an uproar, then Nothing. same old crap, different kid. shameful is all can say.
I say take your frustration and use it to get more people involved. It must be more people with an interest in this. With enough public pressure, even the slow wheels of politics will turn.
like I said before, is it a bad idea to get a bunch of people and go to the Governor's office? The Senator's office? Picket in the town center?
More attention brought to the fact that states close down restaurants for much less?
That place is a circus. 4-6 months of straight brainwashing chaos. I went through the program about 18 months ago. The only reason why I completed the program was because I had no other options. It was either stay there and go through the motions and fake a smile or be homeless.
They don't even mention the word "addiction" or address any drug related issues until about 4 months into the program (and even then it's barely brought up). All the staff are former students therefore there's zero professionally trained people to help with your issues.
The sketchiest part of the whole thing is that if a student mentions the word "Scientology" they are immediately suspended from the program and sent to the nearest homeless shelter for 1-2 weeks. Everyone I know that was sent to the homeless shelter relapsed immediately. A couple students tried heroin for the first time while on suspension and just took off and became homeless in an unfamiliar city. They threatened to suspend me for wanting to attend my sister's wedding FOR THE DAY.
I've been clean for about 18 months now but not because of anything I learned there. All it did was give me 5 months of sobriety before coming back to the real world. 10 of the 60 people I went through the program with are dead because they OD'd when they got out. Maybe like 10-15 have remained sober. That place is a scam.
Letter recounts death at Narconon Arrowhead August 18, 2012, Jarrel Wade, Tulsa World
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Purif is the common element, and I think a case could be made that using a treatment so easily proven quackery is tatmount to physical and psychological abuse. Once the very use of Purif stands as defacto criminal assault, the rest of the dominos should fall quickly.
Big target is big.
Perhaps a more reasonable way to hit that target would be to file a FDA request asking them to regulate the program as defined in the book "Clear Mind, Clear Body: Purification by L. Ron Hubbard" and promoted at cult website clearbodyclearmind dot com.
The overuse of vitamins and niacin alone should render it FDA-regulation worthy. And could perhaps be used as a generic template for non-medical detox programs for truly helpful legislation that would drop a ban hammer on Scientology church and secular profits, plus crack down on other forms of questionable detox woo.
Then subsequent lawfare would have a yellow brick road laid out for victims to pursue compensation for the harm the purif has done to them.
I started following narconon because it was mentioned in the tax evasion, UBI project. In helping out that project, i have noticed a few things.
under the tax code, according to http://nccsweb.urban.org/PubApps/search.php, under association for better living and education aka "able" this is what comes up
Q30-International development, for 2011, they had over 4 million in revenue, and over 14 million in assets.
The older Narconon branches received their tax exempt status in 1975. Other branches received theirs at latter dates(i assume its because they are newer). Yet able received its status in 1993 with the rest of $cientology. Narconon is classified as an F20 for substance abuse, and that is why it receives it tax exempt status.
The author behind the UBI project explained that its a huge project, and that it will undoubtedly tie into the other projects here. Able and narconon file their taxes separately. I have to look into the reasons for this.This thread is an example of one such tie in.
the best way to stop able, is to verify that they are not spending their money on international development. When enough evidence is gathered and submitted, then able will lose its status, be forced to pay back taxes, AND be sued for fraud. This will be hard to do.
Narconon on the other had should be easier. Because some branches have been open since the mid 70's(if i am understanding the dox correctly), There should be more information, reports, articles, criticisms on their methods of rehabilitation. If it is demonstrated that narconon is not successful, is misleading consumers, is committing fraud AND is still getting a tax break. then this can be brought up to the IRS agency in charge of the Tax exempt status of such agencies, and the evidence can be used to remove their exemption. This removal or exemption, from what i understand, will result in investigations across its whole funding spectrum. this would mean inspecting the ties to able, able itself, and what able does.
So, by exposing narCONon, we will also bring down able as well. There already are dox here on the narconon branch in Atlanta defrauding insurance companies, if other cases across the country were to come to light, then that would meet the fraud criteria of the IRS, and could be used to trigger an investigation.
Forgive me if this is a rambling post, this is a very complicated topic. The tax code is designed to get people into trouble. Its a wonder that they have made it this far without too much scrutiny.
I agree wholeheartedly, Narconon and Scientology dominos would fall in unison.
The Purif in and of itself is medically dangerous to anyone including all Scientologists who are required to go through Hubbard's insane purification rundown that he pulled out of his deeply disturbed ass. The obscene niacin levels alone are quite toxic and the endless hours in the sauna while not being monitored by qualified personnel has also led to many problems.
If you like your purif, you should not be able to keep your purif or inflict it on others who are ignorant of the medical dangers under the guise of 'purifying' your body, this claim has no medical basis in fact.
Of course L. Ron Hubbard never let the facts cloud his judgment on any of his insane, controlling processing. Read 'Nuclear Physicist' and 'Dr.' L. Ron Hubbard's batshit insane take on radiation to find out all you need to know about this utter fraud who was neither a Doctor nor a nuclear physicist, simply an extremely abusive, controlling, convicted fraud.
Cover of 1957 edition of All About Radiation
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but the FDA hasn't had the balls to go near Scientology since CoS played the religious angle back in 1969.
Victory for the Scientologists February 14, 1969, TIME Magazine
I want a time machine, a cricket bat, and some quality time with Judge Wright.
Hmmmm. Really, not since 1969? I wonder what regulations have changed since then?
I believe that there has been at least one serious attempt to get the FDA interested since Chanology began. Results...
IIII IIII IIII IIII III
What was I talking about again?
not surprising. IF the law was not so fucking lazy, they would have crucified Scientology by now. I was minding my own business, searching for things to charge them ubi for, and now i have to go check out a 400 dollar law book from the library because i think that there may be serious lulz in the near future.
I don't think that it's so much the the law. I think that agencies like the FDA, FBI, IRS, etc, know that they would be jumping into a fight that would absorb years worth of time and entire budgets. As well, any hotshots who want a fast career path don't want to be stuck in limbo for the next 5+ years while it plays out--they'll sidestep CoS for the easy victories.
(Only CoS is more like the Shit Baby.)
If we want action from those agencies, we need a way to make them want to open that big ole can of worms.
True, the irs is obsessed with staying in budget. I think the best path is multiple lawsuits, from every angle. Fortunately, Co$ has left a very interesting paper trail over the years, and the laws have only gotten stricter/greedier.
then again, CO$ does not have the legal power that they used to have. I think after these next few lawsuits, they will probably have less then before.
From another angle, simultaneously, one could simply request that the Sea Org Staff based in California and Florida in various locations, need to assure that their workers are legitimately employed and comply with state codes regarding Labor Laws.
Couple of things -
Sea Org staff in their religious paramilitary need to be paid at least minimum wage, the staff must have reasonable work hours and clear and fair directives which does not abuse power to unjustly harass and intimidate its workers. No more than a single 12 hour shift within a 24 hour day, with two fifteen minute breaks and a reasonable lunch hour. The autonomy to have a humane and reasonable amount of privacy when it comes to both mail sent to them as well as telephone and other contact with friends and family.
Screening mail and telephone calls has to be illegal. Especially if it is used as a method to intimidate and harass people.
It's the year 2013, and religion is no excuse for virtual slavery and wicked abuse.
( ps scilons, Love is not on the tone scale. That is unfortunate. No compassion, either. Hmmm. )
This whole thing is seriously going to need the consideration and assistance of multiple agencies, on multiple fronts.
One that just came to mind is passports and worker visas.
I believe that it is illegal to withhold an individual's passport, if there is no legal reason to do so.
Sea Org staff have reported having their passports withheld so as to render them unable to have control
over their own living situation / travel plans / security and safety. Having a passport taken by an abusive
boss who is holding one captive is a terrifying and crippling experience. While individuals may have signed
some fictional, superfluous billion year contract, that contract is worthless if it contradicts the laws that
govern the united states. nobody is above the law, here.
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