Jesse Prince's "finale" about the Lisa McPherson Trust

I don't know anyone whom I'd call an entirely bad or entirely good person.

Cinderella

dumb bitch was vain, totally went for the pumpkin

She wasn't good. She was more like weak. Snow White was good.

Ditto, but I was speaking briefly to make a simple point. Jeffrey Dahmer had his good points, no doubt, but would you be willing to kiss and make up with him after he eated your bebbiez? Well, what if he only eated a few fingers? Or maybe just nibbled on them. How about if he just rubbed BBQWTFsauce on them and then licked it off, slowly? OK to be friends after that?

My point is that lines can be crossed which indicate that someone is simply not the kind of person you will ever be OK with. Are there such people among the ranks of the OG? I don't know, but with a cult floating around, it wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah, I've encountered some people like that. They can't be predicted and they don't register other people's distress. Best to stay away.

It will never happen.

The divide is deep.

She made her step-mother and step-sisters dance in red-hot iron shoes until they died. (Okay, it was the Fairy Godmother that cast the spell, but Cinderella didn't voice any objections.)

I don't know why Disney cut that part out. It seems to have been in the Snow White story too. Quite popular back in the day, I guess.

The best that can happen is what's happening now, IMO: provide an environment where anybody can offer their contributions and the best ones will receive support from the hivemind. Some bridges might get mended in the process, or maybe not, but that's not ultimately the important thing here. Each person is free to make their own associations with others. The important thing is shutting down the abuses of the cult, and that is happening regardless of any OGs or anyone else.

If there were no snakes among the OG, I would agree with Orson's call for them to just patch things up, and I 100% do hope that that happens between any of them who are basically decent people.

You saying Disney did an Operation Snow White on Snow White?

No it doesnt matter jackshi- aside from generating unproductive drama.

Anon came along and not only turned the page, they closed the fking book, turned out the lights, and ushered in an entirely new game and commenced to write a entirely new book.

LMT and OG of that era faced a huge over grown jungle in fighting an evil cult gone wild for about 25yrs too long for the good of mankind. They ripped out a footpath in said jungle with their bare hands and paid in the spades to earn the opportunity to pickup a machete and and take serious whack at building a road for future generations.

They faught an impossible battle, and still managed to blaze a trail we all found, and went as far they could until LMT had to GTFO and DIAF. Each person who went their own separate way in the end went thru pure living hell for longer than we the hivemind have been in this fight. Yeah they all got burnt in someway or the other. Tends to happen when you play with fire, and opt to fight fire with fire, for the greater good. And none of us anony faggots walked in their shoes down those vastly different paths so who the fuck are we to judge, or even care?

Of course their not gonna agree, each lived thru their own personal hell. And the ones who still do what they can for the good of the cause in general - they deserve our respect in not sticking our nose in their bizness, and we should learn from past let all that heavyshit be water under bridge and hoorah - who gives a fk it was yesteryear.

As pooks says, the divide is too deep. so why even bother - in case ya havent notice we've decentralized quite well and there's room for everybody who does something to fit-in somewhere.

stay. on. target.

OG couldnt, it was impossible. But we can, by letting bygones be bygones with each having their own opinion on what it was like for them to walk thru the valley of darkness known as LMT and live to tell about it AND fight the cult again in a new era.

i am tired of this subject.

Jesse is pure legend, turn up the heat, the co$ is cooking and will soon be done! Well, hopefully.

I trust Jesse as one of the old-timers in a position of importance who could understand what was going on. I trusted RVY as well but he is dead. I don't trust MR or MR.

AnonLover speaks teh wisdom.

In 2001/2002 I observed the demise of the LMT from a safe distance. I knew it was chaos back then, but having read Jesse's report I am pretty stunned about what was really going on.

I am so glad that I stayed away from Minton and his money. I remember well the day when Minton called me to recruit me for the LMT in 1999. What a mess!

It's also nice to see that all my reservations about this shithead Arnie Lerma proved to be true.

There is a very easy way to know Jesse is the one to trust.

He recommends anyone using Internet Explorer should switch to Firefox

Jesse Prince writes:

Jesse put the Haney settlement in context with the other litigation connected to the Minton cases. It should be noted that Brian Heny reached a settlement with Bryan Zwan/Digital Lightwave in late 2000. That was case was not connected in any way with Minton.

And the $80 Million figure appears to be too high.

It is interesting to mention Brian Haney's observation of Minton at the time of his negotiations with Rinder and Rathbun in 1998. He told me that Minton was getting off the fact that he would finally meet the high-powered Scn-executives. It was some kind of macho power trip for him to force the "evil" OSA & RTC executives to the negotiation table. Brian told me that it appeared to him as if the whole confrontation with the CoS was at least partially a game for Minton where he could prove his manhood. That was quite in contrast to the public humanitarian image that he was propagating at that time.

Jesse Prince wrote:

How ironic, this piece of scum Arnie Lerma accused me in 2003 of having sold an archive of hundreds of thousands of documents to the Church of Scientology - due to the Brian Haney settlement. In case you are reading this, Arnie Lerma, I indeed gave the documents away - to a long-time French Scientology critic - for free.

As a sidenote, at around 2001 Arnie Lerma asked Brian Haney for money. When he didn't get anything, he started to trash Brian on a.r.s., saying that "Brian Haney did sell out to the cult."

Arnie Lerma - you are giving the word hypocrisy a whole new meaning.

wow - more people seemingly long gone popping out of the woodwork everyday lately!

Welcome to whyweprotest Mr. Ottman, thanks for sharing these insights on Haney et al... fascinating stuff. always good to get the rest of the story. Us anon like getting multiple sides of the historical record.

But may i respectfully point out the pissing contest with Arnie is already brewing over on ESMB:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=22430

and with all the useless unrelated drama already pruned from this thread by the mods, i welcome you and caution you at the same time - please dont import OG drama over here. Debating the deathly hallows of the long lost LMT days isnt one of our targets here on whyweprotest.

^^^^
Logged on just to 'like' this post.

<3 AnonLover

I'm glad to see Martin come to WWP. He & I appeared together in the German documentary, The Dark Side of Scientology (Die dunkle Seite von Scientology) in 1997. Regardless of our differences, he's a good man that the cult aggressively fair-gamed for courageously speaking the truth.

and Jesse still has abit more to say...

Apendix To Finale

I am sorry. That was my impulsive German nature.

Pissing contests were the daily bread on a.r.s. But I will refrain from doing it from now on.

Fuck no! Have pissing contests, just do them in the threads that have already turned to fail

Welcome, Martin.

Pissing contests are in this thread
DRAMA~I was told to come to you.~DRAMA

: )

Having had a pretty good seat for at least part of period of time Jesse covers (the period relating to Ken Dandar, with whom I worked and for whom I helped research during the time Minton had turned on him), I'll say that Jesse's post is entirely consistent with what I know. Indeed, Jesse's post, the parts relating to the LMT anyway, nothing new to many. And because that view has been so unpopular over the years--Bob's having paid so many influential critics ensured that that would remain as the case--it just gets chalked up to unproductive OG infighting or whatever. And though I've largely moved on from talking about Minton, I'm especially happy that he called out Arnie Lerma, who has been nothing but a malignant force for the last ten years or so. As Martin Ottman indicated downthread, Lerma has always been quick to vilify other critics for "selling out," even as he hypocritically worked behind the scenes to get others to do so on Minton's behalf. And to this day he would have anyone who listens swallow the fiction that Minton's recanting had nothing to do with a deal to destroy the Lisa McPherson wrongful death suit.

That is utter bullshit. The COS killed the LMT! With millions of dollars, PI's stalking and all the other bullshit these people went through to fight. Do I like what Bob and Stacy did in the end, NO. But I understand it. Anyone of you that don't get it, do everything you can to piss off the cult and see what happens to you. If you think people have it bad today it was worse back then because the COS had only a few people to target and more resources. To call Bob and Stacy lapdogs after all they did is disgusting. They were clearly emotionally beaten in to submission as any human being might be under their conditions. To sit in condemning judgement of them from people who have faced less is sad at best. Yes when they stopped funding things and turned over info to the COS that is frustrating but the FEDS were not coming to the rescue and there was no light at the end of the tunnel. Should they have gotten so depressed that they killed themselves instead? It is easy to say they should have done this or that or what ever pops in to your head, I am surprised they got out of it as well as they did. Don't forget that we owe these people, all of them Bob, Stacy, Mark, Jessie and anyone else at the LMT a great deal of gratitude. They set a solid foundation on how to and not to fight the cult and exposed many issues that are still being talked about to this day. Let those who have left enjoy their well earned right to peace.

I can only wish that Anonymous came on to the scene just a few years earlier and this might not have happened but it did.

More from me on Bob and Stacy. I have no doubts that Bob was used to having things his way as a millionaire. But in the end if he spent one million the cult would spend four million. If he one staff member working they had six. What happened to Bob and Stacy in the end is that they became statistics, victim of the cult. Scientology did this to the best of us and turned them inside out. I don't see bashing Bob or Stacy as useful and can only question it as an OSA style tactic or the opinion of someone that needs to study the issue more closely. This is not to say that we should not study what happened to Bob and Stacy and learn from it so others don't make the same mistakes, but lets not trash what gains they made.

Minton hagiographers and apologists before you advanced the same arguments, all which are far too easy to puncture, and all which ignore the reality that Minton did not just cave under pressure, he willingly attempted to destroy others to save his own neck. That Minton had millions of dollars did not make him special and somehow exempt from human decency or more important than those he turned on. And excusing his behavior by characterizing the pressure he faced as greater and more unique than anything anyone had to that point had faced ignores the fact that he not only boastfully welcomed the pressure to the point of seeking it out (always against the advice of smarter people), but routinely vilified others who had settled with Scientology, such as Dennis Erlich and Brian Haney. But neither Erlich nor Haney acted on Scientology's behalf in attempting to destroy others.

So I don't really care whether you or anyone else find my criticism of Minton and his lackeys like Lerma to be "useful" and I similarly yawn in your general direction as to whether criticism of them constrains you to "question" whether it's "an OSA style tactic" (having heard that tired trope before), because as Jesse has corroborated, such criticism was warranted and accurate. The lessons of the LMT are many, but the most important, most over-arching lesson to be taken away, is that the truth matters, and if you're lying for some perceived greater good, you're no better than that which you've decided to oppose.

What tikk said.

No need to apologize Mr Ottmann, you've well earned your right to vent some steam after all these years. That's not the same as a pissing contest that is only done for the sake of hammering at something over and over again, until the message itself is flushed down the toilet.

So i apologize for perhaps assuming too soon you were working up a fervor for a pissing match rather than just venting what you have to say to get it off your chest.

I'm a hardcore researchfag who knows your history well, so I am absolutely thrilled to see you pop up here in the anon camp after all these years. I just didnt want to see this opportunity to find out what you might have to say go down the tubes in a stupid flame war with Arnie before you even got a chance to share your insights on things with us anon.

Especially since Arnie has already jumped into the flame war arena all on his own over on ESMB, just like the bad old days on A.R.S. Because of that flame war already brewing over there, there is no need for it to also be here on whyweprotest. So my comment was strictly intended to keep Arnie from coming over here with his rants and drama, and not in any way meant to tell you to shut up or go away.

So here's hoping very much you do stick around, pull up a chair and school us on things worth knowing from your experiences. Just please dont throw name-calling bait to the drama goons and loons that will come barreling over here to repeat all the blather they've already repeated over and over again elsewhere. Arnie obviously deserves to be called on the carpet by people who were there, but anons were NOT there and Arnie has already chosen the ESMB carpet to strut on out ahead of things and defend himself.

ESMB seems like a mighty fine place for him to go hang himself, and he was well on his way to doing that when you showed up. Thus i figure there's no need to give him reason to pack up his carpet and drag it over here just to start all over again

btw - did i mention how happy i am to see you here?
/SALUTE to Mr. Ottmann, for all you've endured

One, I never said that his money made him exempt. Where did I elude to it? Two, did I say you personally were OSA? Where did I say that? I was speaking about a broad range of nasty comments. Three, I never ignored others that were under as much pressure as him? I just said that he was caved in. Truth is irrelevant if you have no life to live and from what I saw Bob was driven to it. I am not making excuses for what he did but saying I can see how one is driven to do it. I will point out not once did you comment to my post about the actions of Scientology? Humm sounds like you think he was worse than the people that fucked with him to the point he caved in? I for one am grateful for Jessie's post as it is valuable information but when I hear people calling Stacy a whore more worried about living off of Bob's money than doing the right thing all I can say is become homeless and picket the cult yourself with no resources to fight them. I would love to see anyone go that rout. I completely empathize with those that got betrayed by Bobs actions but I will not condemn him because I also read Jessie's post and clearly understand what drove him to it. The little hate fest people have over him are counter productive. He is dead and Stacy is out of the game and for one to put this much effort in bashing them is counterproductive. Is Aaron Saxton next because he bailed? Who gets your wrath next? Here is an idea, how about the cult of Scientology? Yeah because they fucked Bob till he broke. Again I invite you to provoke the same wrath he had and then you can show us how well you would burn! Please become homeless and a shell of a person to prove how noble you are. Bob did not totally burn and he did do things that I am convinced were not in his nature as a person but that is what Scientology does to people and why they need to be fought so hard. Because if they can get Bob to do what he did in the end non of us are safe till this shit cult is broken. Do you want me to believe that Bob started this, fought as hard as he did, took all of the personal attacks as he had all just to fuck people? Or was his real crime not understanding just how evil Scientology was when he took it on? You said he invited it, no one invites the types of attacks he was under. I get it, he hurt people in the end but put the blame and your efforts where it belongs on the cult.

So, hey guys, I heard the cult might still be around.

Exactly!

it would appear I've struck a nerve.

that was a observation that I feel is substantiated by Jesses blog, and dox that he provided and I stand by it. I don't hold any malice towards BM or SB, never met them never will, plus I can't claim to have accomplished what they had, or ever will. I am not casting stones at anyone, I feel I'm just stating the obvious.

With what you just said I have no objection. It is clear that people felt betrayed by Bob and they had a right too. My issue is with the outright bashing of him and Stacy with no respect of what they achieved or suffered through. My rant was not directed at you or anyone person but as response of what I saw as a culmination of attacks on a guy who is not even in the game anymore. What I read from Jessie's post while critical does not appear to me to be slanderous. If I took your post out of context I apologize but I do take exception to the word lapdog. Beaten in to submission like a dog maybe? With all things being equal and they never are I suspect Bob would have preferred living in a world where he did help Scientology but saw them sink.

And it is usually not my style to behave like a party crasher. Normally I am well-behaved. I guess I had spent too much time with the wrong people on a.r.s.

OK. I won't talk about him anymore.

My main point of interest is the blog of Marty Rathbun. This is a real treasure chest to learn about the mentality of hardcore public Scientologists and CoS management executives. I am reading his blog quite regularly, whereby the comments section is the most interesting part. There is so much to talk about.

Thank you (blushing). I am surprised that people know me (still).

Are you sure that you don't confuse me with someone else? My "fate" wasn't particular gruesome. 4 years Scientology and 2 years Sea Org. No RPF assignment - I only watched them running in their black boiler suits. And I had the chance to see Mark Rathbun in action! Hahaha.

Ooooo! Do talk (and don't hold back on the juice pls)