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James V. Crosby v. Florida, US Supreme Court No. 13-9943

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Florida Scandal, May 24, 2014.

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Should law enforcement use bait and switch tactics on adult hookup sites, setting up random men?

Yes 8 vote(s) 66.7%
No 4 vote(s) 33.3%
  1. And these are the real stings people! I am sorry that we have had disagreemens and I am sorry that I have been so offended but damn you guys are rough! You see, this is why this is so important and everyone should be pissed! Not only pissed because you all have been lied to but also because the lies were meant to keep you in fear to ruin innocent men's lives. Fear is big business and we all know the government loves big business.
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Oh and the only reason why I would want to edit would be to correct spelling or gramatical errors.
  3. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THESE STINGS:

    Under Arpaio, the Maricopa County Jails have lost accreditation multiple times.[34] In September, 2008, the National Commission on Correctional Health Care terminated the accreditation of all Maricopa County Sheriff's Office jails for failure to maintain compliance with national standards, and providing false information about such compliance.

    The ICAC Task forces are evaluated by the Department of Justice and they are lying about complying with the standardized procedures. (Proof of this is in the petition previously posted.)

    Oh hell yeah! I am all over this shit!

    Here is more:

    Department of Justice investigations[edit]

    In June 2008, the United States Department of Justice (DOJ) began an investigation of the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office.[12] In March 2009, the United States Department of Justice notified Arpaio that they were investigating the department for civil rights violations, in unfairly targeting Hispanics and Spanish-speaking people.[

    These stings violate civil rights by unconstitutionally targeting men looking for sex.

    Do you have a thread on this?
    • Like Like x 1
  4. We have had a hell of a day and the shit just keeps getting deeper! Welcome! How are you?
  5. White Tara Global Moderator

    I think a contrary point of view on any given subject represents a healthy injection to any conversation. This is never going to be the popular standpoint but Dayam, healthy, robust,honest debate on rhis subject but it is always a good thing.
    • Like Like x 1
  6. These numbers are nothing compared to the numbers that will have to be paid out because of these stings:

    Maricopa County to pay $3.75 million for false arrests


    By Dr. Conspiracy on December 21, 2013in Joe Arpaio, Media
    Some of the harshest media criticism of Sheriff Joe Arpaio has come from the Phoenix New Times paper, and their allied web site. Today they reported:
    The Maricopa County Board of Supervisors this afternoon voted unanimously to approve a $3.75 million settlement for New Times’ co-founders, whose false arrests in 2007 were orchestrated by Sheriff Joe Arpaio.
    Michael Lacey and Jim Larkin were taken from their homes in the middle of the night and jailed on misdemeanor charges alleging that they violated the secrecy of a grand jury — which turned out never to have been convened.
    The actual story that led to the lawsuit is as entertaining as it is bizarre as it is shocking. Who would have thought that a veteran law enforcement officer would stoop to filing blatantly-false charges against political opponents!
    In a related story Don Stapley will receive $3.5 million for false arrest and prosecution. This is in addition to $5 million paid out previously for legal abuses in lawsuits between 2008 and 2010 on top of $43 million in settlements for prisoner death and injury lawsuits. That tops $55 million! Here are the details on the false arrest and prosecution cases:
  7. Great point! It most certainly is a good thing because we are all human and we all miss things.
  8. Can we start a thread on the generalization of this topic where people can post up examples of this type of activity happening? This happens far too often in law enforcement agencies throughout the country and it is directly parallel to our objectives.
  9. Our objectives not meaning mine or Florida Scandal or Governing Us but our as in OURS!
  10. Oh yeah, but unfortunately (like with the stings) they don't get caught.
  11. White Tara Global Moderator

    Well there must be some 'proven in a court of law examples' I know of one example of a user posting recently of being caught up in prosecutorial overreach which broke my heart. If their were more salient examples being seen down in a court of law, then those may be worth posting?
  12. Yeah, good point because if we just post things that have not been heard in court the cops will just dismiss the claims as farces. This gives me an idea. There are former cops out there that have quit because of police corruption. What are the chances that we get them to talk with us?
  13. Oh and to support this thread, there are cops on LEOaffairs.com that are ridiculing law enforcement for using illegal tactics during child sex stings like targeting military.
  14. Therefore, not all cops are in on it (obviously) and if we could get cops to stand up against cops in situations like these that would be perfect.
  15. That is the problem with fighting corruption, it is more easily done from the inside.
  16. Oh speaking of quotas, there is a quota associated with these stings. In the Memorandum of Understanding which is a contract signed with the DOJ it states that in order to continue to receive funding, the arrests made must be more than the last quarter. Therefore, law enforcement are financially incentivized to resort to more egregious methods to make the required arrests to get the grant money.
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Ok, I am watching a movie to reset myself and go to sleep. See you guys later.
    • Like Like x 1
  18. White Tara Global Moderator

    Ok, forum form demands one doesn't quote ones own post, but you are onto something. There is the age old catch cry of Dox or STFU to consider here, if you could interest these former enforcement agency people to come here and share their perspective and experience, that would be quite something. They certainly would not be the first former military, nor law enforcement people to post here. worth considering?
  19. Random guy Member

    Now here's the interesting bit: Back at point 7 he did whet any reasonable guy would do. He must have known his judgement was not top notch and called it off. Had that been it, he would have walked scot free. Actually, not until point 10 did he do anything bad. No-one stop you from talking to a minor, what is wrong is for a grown man to drive an hour in broad daylight because a minor that he's discussed sex with asks him to come over.

    You defended him as being drunk at the time, but he wasn't when he did whet he's in trouble for. He's not in trouble for talking to a "minor" on-line, he's in trouble for by his full faculty and in broad daylight spent an hour driving to meet whet he thought was a minor girl. At any point during that trip he could have used his noggin and turned around, but he didn't.

    You could argue that he just wanted to talk to her and warn her of speaking to stranger on-line, but that is an argument for the courts, not for this forum.

    - I want you to fuck my under-age daughter!
    - Don't wanna.
    - I'll screw you if you do!
    - Don't wanna screw your daughter.
    - Then you're not getting any!
    - I'm coming over anyway.

    facepalm.jpg

    Where I come from there's a saying: Being an asshole is not criminal. Being stupid is not criminal. Being stupid and an asshole may land you in jail. How utterly lame-brained are these guys? If a grown woman is pimping out her under-age daughter you call the child protection services or the police, you don't pack condoms and head over there. Good Grief!

    If you feel the police is being using the law wrongly, then you start a political process to change the law or to get it applied differently.

    What on earth do you want a bunch of strangers with Guy Fawks masks to do about this? What was it you envisioned we could do, and what was you though would make us into your personal army?
    • Like Like x 2
  20. LOL!
  21. Oh I only quoted myself so I could keep the idea together.
  22. But yeah, good point! I will stop replying to myself.
  23. rickybobby Member

    We can't even get good cops to turn in bad cops when they beat up helpless detainees. Have you seen one of the many videos showing other cops standing around while one abuses a handcuffed suspect?
    • Like Like x 2
  24. rickybobby Member

    Florida Scandal,

    Here at WWP, we all know that Law Enforcement NEVER entraps people, and our fine law enforcement friends are extremely careful not to trample on our constitutional rights in their zeal to ferret out child predators. Or find and arrest drug abusers. Or deport illegal immigrants. Or those nasty terrorists hanging out on the internet.
    • Like Like x 3
  25. Yeah I know, it does not make any sense what these guys are doing. In any event, no matter how stupid the scenarios are and what stupid things the guys do it still proves that they are not child predators and it still proves that the public is being lied to. It also proves that law enforcement are violating the constitutional rights of free speech and due process just to make arrests. Also, the full legal analysis must be applied to the entire scenario and not just point out different parts. In the first scenario, he actually was in trouble for what happened on the internet even though he really did not solicit a minor because he did not believe that it was a minor. They just said that he believed it was a minor so he would be in trouble for it. (By the way they did falsify the arrest report and state that he admitted that he thought it was a minor which was not true.) Furthermore, he did not get into legal trouble for driving over there (a crime called "traveling to meet a minor") because that is not a crime either unless the intent to have sex existed. They knew there was no intent to have sex because of the phone calls so they did not charge him with that. However, having stated that: since there was no intent to actually have sex this man did not commit any crimes and was completely set up by LE. The most important parts of the entire scenario that prove he did not commit a crime are

    1) adult role play chat
    2) he backed out of sex that he did not offer, they did
    3) They bribed him with money to get him to come
    4) They did not record the phone calls, thus setting him up for the internet chats they created

    The second scenario makes more sense when you consider the fact that the guy stated that the reason why he went was because he thought he could seduce this woman anyway because he had a rather large penis since she was obviously a slut. Also, he was not having any luck finding any other hookups because he kept answering ads posted by spammers. He was fed up with talking with fake people so he was just grateful to finally get a "real" woman to have sex with.

    As far as what we expect Anonymous to do, well some anons have already been helping in this endeavour. I don't know who, but some anons have hacked into the police database and foiled some stings in the past. I don't know why they did it but I do wish that they would have done something more meaningful like uncover some illegal money being given to the police by drug dealers for protection. Or hacked into the court database and found sealed records proving that these very same officers that perform stings are fathers of children to teenage girls. I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS WHAT WE WANT EITHER. I am just saying they should have been more creative with their endeavour and were obviously interested in the stings for some reason. Also, I know that some anons are working with Kitty Wolfe in her cause to try to shut down porngate where political figures are being targeted and set up with CP to get them out of the way. She is affected by CP because her autistic son was looking for a Winnie the Poo movie called "Honey Pot" and the feds embedded it with CP. Therefore, when he downloaded it they knew he downloaded it and went to arrest him. Well, he deleted the CP but they arrested him anyway for possession of CP even though they knew that an autistic kid would actually be looking for a Winnie the Poo movie and not be involved in the underground trade with people that new where to find the file and what the file actually was.

    Truthfully, we have been trying to get a rally together for a long time but people are scared to rally for fear of revealing their identities. We would like to organize a rally in front of the Supreme Court or other government buildings like FBI head quarters or Homeland Security that have participated in these stings using illegal tactics. However, we did not want to just put on Guy Fawkes masks and pretend to be anons as this would cause some serious problems for obvious reasons. Law enforcement are playing with fire and setting men and children up with serious crimes just to get paid and pretend to be doing their jobs. CNN has expressed interest in the story concerning government corruption with these stings but do not want to publish one if they feel there is no support. Therefore, we need support and we need people to see the truth in order to get that support. So we go around from site to site trying to prove our cause looking for supporters so one day we can get the story broke on a national level and not just some local stations.

    Oh, and the political process is also part of the plan too. We are trying to work this story from every angle. These stings began because of a political agenda and are perpetuated by the media by spreading the lies of law enforcement so it will take both to stop them. Also, as you can tell some of us have been doing our homework on other government corruption issues and are willing to help all around, not just with this bs.
  26. I will get a couple of our guys on LEOaffairs.com to solicit those officers to come here! Not only worth considering but also worth trying.
  27. Walls of Words from Florida Scandal a pedo sympathizer.

    Tara, you know I love ya, but the op has some serious mental issues that need professional help.

    Basically, Florida Scandal is butthurt at the notion that cops troll around on sex hook up sites. Now FS has fluctuated between them being on there to look for child molesters to them just being on there.

    However, FS continues to ignore:
    • The fact the sites are barely legal to begin with.
    • The fact child molesters aren't stupid and know that these sites can be a honey pot.
    • The fact the internet is a tool and cops know criminals aren't stupid.
    • The fact Stings have been going on for years. Long before the birth of the Tubes.
    • The fact that a person is just as accountable of their actions as the LE.
    • The fact that entrapment is something most stings try to avoid.
    • The fact that if a person says no, if the cops proceed, then it is entrapment.
    • If the person doesn't say no or doesn't ask... Hope they enjoy prison butt sex. They earned every last inch.
    • The fact that no human plan/rue/idea is perfect and subject to error or overzealosy. That just beause that happens doesn't make the entire plan/idea/rue/law invalid. (Which FS clearly demonstrates the idea that it does)
    Now, if this were a case of wrongful entrapment, then that would be one thing. However, instead of explaining it in the OP, the faggot went off half cocked and demanded help based on bullshit dox and hyperbole. Thanks to FS and their tirade of "I'm right and fuck you if I'm wrong" attitude and massive walls of words, I couldn't give a shit less.

    BTW: Florida Scandal was also on some bullshit tangent about the cops having some electronic device who were trying to target pedos and wanted Anons here to get it and hax it for illegal purposes. (Later, FS recanted and the idea, albeit impossible still, had merit but not before having to pull teeth from FS.) Forgot what it was, but the problem was the idea was next to impossible to perform due to cost and legal availability.

    TL;DR: FS needs to get off this tangent and explain, in one paragraph or less, the situation clearly. FS also needs to get over the fact cops have as much right to put a sting out on some "Get Crabs and Herpes Tonight!":as they do having a female cop pretending to be a hooker on the street corner. Finally, FS needs to understand if a person is too dumb to not ask for the age of their potential hook up or finds out that said hook up is under the age of consent but they continue anyways, fuck them. Hope Bubba makes their anus resemble Goatse.

    I have no doubt in my mind Florida Scandal should name himself "White Knight of Pedos" or "Pedo Sympathizer" as they clearly want to prevent cops from catching these scum bags.
    • Like Like x 3
  28. OMG! No I have not seen that! Well then we need to get some of them in some masks! If they don't want to be a snitch publicly then they can do it anonymously.
  29. Well, that is why we are here: to do some house cleaning!
  30. Never fluctuated about anything.

    1. Those sites are 100% completely and unequivocally legal.
    2. The modis operandi of a child molester is to groom an innocent child and betray their trust by sexually molesting them. Sure child predators have used Craigslist before but it has been on sections of the site that have nothing to do with adult content. I.e. A guy was arrested for soliciting sex from the daughter of a guy selling something like a lawnmower in the want ads section. Something that a sting performed like the ones at issue here would never find.
    3. You are right, child molesters are not stupid so they stick to their online gaming sites where they know the cops are not at to find their victims. Or they get on Facebook or some other teen oriented social networking site and pretend to be minors themselves.
    4. Stings are legal, but only when they target actual crime. Stings are not meant to create crime.
    5. No a person is not legally culpable when entrapment is at issue. Entrapment is about the actions of the government, not the guilt or innocence of the "suspect".
    6. They do state that they try to avoid entrapment and in the standardized procedures that they are supposed to follow it even states to follow the procedures to ensure adherence to due process. Yet, they are not following the procedures.
    7. We have numerous cases, even the title of this thread where the guys said no but were arrested because they were being stupid, not child predators. (Have you been paying attention or are you so livid right now you can't concentrate and could shit ten bricks?)
    8. There are many times when the person does not ask and gets arrested. A recent manatee county case that was dismissed because the guy not only said no but he utterly refused and the guy was still arrested just for talking innocently with the "girl".
    9. The legal system in this country operates on Blackstone's Formulation:

    "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" so yes, legally if there is one flaw to be found in an operation, the entire operation is invalid

    I think maybe that you are looking in the mirror. Not to insult you, this is a process called protectionism according to psychologists and it means you have self esteem issues. I have not demanded anything from anyone other than to read the shit that I was giving everyone that proved my point. You are the only one with the attitude "I'm right and fuck you if I'm wrong"! You refused to read anything and have been stuck on arguing your OPINION being right without even reviewing my EVIDENCE.


    SO WHAT! I am trying to fucking help here! Not shoot down everything like you are doing because you're an asshole.

    I have explained the situation clearly in one paragraph that you have not even read yet. When I go back and find it I will repost it for you. As far as proving the ages of the "minors" the Supreme Court stated that legal identification is required to prove the age of someone so the men would have to show up any damn way to see the ID now wouldn't they?

    [/quote]

    I forgive you for that statement without you even asking me to because I know you are going to be eating your words when I shut down these stings. I don't just sit here and talk like you do without any proof. I get my proof and then I use it. We have won court cases that speak for us. We have attorneys that endorse and believe in what we say and practice is certainly making the defenses perfect. The only thing you have is your weak ass opinions and from a psychological standpoint, the reason why you are so defensive when there is no reason to be is because you are hiding something. Now stop acting like an asshole! I like you so let's get on the same page here. No I don't mean agree with me. I just mean have an educated, healthy discussion about government corruption concerning deliberate constitutional violations in internet stings.
  31. Random guy Member

    Yes, yes, that's very nice dear.

    What stings are you going to shut down exactly? Those in your home-town? Those using Craiglist? Those involving specific policemen? Specific offices? All of them?


    You have said so a couple of times before, but you still haven't told us what you need us for. If you have all this evidence, and all this lawyers, and all the proof the cops are doing illegal stings, why on earth are you wasting your time at WWP? Head over to court and protect the world from the ebil paedo squad, don't tarry around here!
    • Like Like x 5
  32. @Anonymous_Crotch_Ninja, I found the paragraph you wanted to explain the situation:

    Also, as far as being concerned with the objectives of anonymous, we are very concerned which is why we started "Governing Us". That site is meant to be a forum for all acts of government corruption and constitutional issues hence the name. Just who the hell is "Governing Us"? Sic Semper Tyrannus! Also, it seems that a bunch of tyrants are in here as well. Sure pick on the new guy! Look, I'm not crazy. I'm just ahead of the curve. I don't give a damn what goes through anyone's mind about having sex with teens because it is their constitutional right and speech must be protected from the government because speech is the beginning of thought. For law enforcement to go to an adult website, post an ad as an adult looking for sex, and then switch the age of the poster to that of a "minor" is a process called inducement and implantation. I.e. These fuckers weren't thinking about fucking kids until the cops put the idea in their heads by pretending to be criminals who want them to do it. Furthermore, engaging in a criminal enterprise from start to finish is entrapment and inducement. The fact that they are going to adult websites where people are already looking for sex is proof that they are approaching and soliciting random, unsuspecting, innocent men because they are using the legal activity they are engaged in to twist it into a "crime" which is also inducement. Sure what these guys are doing is morally wrong and they are already engaged in immoral activities in the first damn place. However, for law enforcement to exploit this and set them up as something they are not because of one act of "misjudgement" IS NOT tolerated by the constitution especially since the acts of "misjudgement" (or thinking with their dicks if you like) would have never happened had the government not been there to encourage them to do it.

    Here is case law to support the above statement and proof the tactics are illegal:

    People v. Aguirre, No. G045009 (CA 4th DCA, April 5, 2012)
    Our analysis suggests the government should not be in the business of testing the will of law-abiding citizens with elaborate (if improbable) fantasies of sensuous teenagers desperate to engage in sexual acts with random middle-aged men...

    The pertinent question in this case is whether an individual seeking consensual casual sex on the Internet who would normally confine the search and pursuit to adults, would nonetheless be induced by the police conduct at issue in this case to pursue lewd conduct with a minor. (See Barraza, supra, 23 Cal.3d at p. 690 [police conduct cannot "be viewed in a vacuum" but instead "should . . . be judged by the effect it would have on a normally law-abiding person situated in the circumstances of the case at hand"].)

    Gennette vs. State, 1D12-3407 (Sept. 13, 2013)
    Because the preponderance of the evidence, as set out in the e-mail messages, showed the law enforcement officer’s methods of persuasion induced or encouraged, and as a direct result caused Appellant’s unlawful communications, the legal definition of entrapment set out in section 777.201, Florida Statues was met and the motion to dismiss should have been granted. The law does not tolerate government action to provoke a law-abiding citizen to commit a crime in order to prosecute him or her with that crime.
    Here are some words of advice:



    You clearly do not know much about law and base everything off of your opinions, feelings, and emotions. However, in order to be more effective and give more purpose to this group you should start studying it so you know what you are doing and are not "shooting from the hip" so to speak. How are you supposed to know what the government should or should not do if you are not studying the law and most certainly constitutional law? Finally, I never stated that I support pedophiles. I never stated that the guys arrested in these stings are not "fucked up" for lack of a better phrase. In fact, I stated quite the contrary. All I have ever stated were that the tactics are illegal and regardless of how we feel about the situation the guys are not criminally liable for their actions because the only thing that can be proven is that the cops are the predators and the arrestees are not.
  33. Random guy Member

    No, it doesn't.

    It does not prove that they are not paedos, it only fails to prove they are paedos (if your version of events are correct). You just committed a formal fallacy: If A, then B. Not A -> not B.
    • Like Like x 4
  34. See what I mean by deliberately obtuse? You know damn good and well what stings not only because of the content herein but because of the very title and description of this thread.

    I already stated what I needed you guys for and that I do not think BUT KNOW that this is the very thing Anonymous is trying to stop. If you would take your head out of your ass, insert your foot into your mouth, and pay attention to the comments being posted by ignoring your weak assumptions (hard to do I know) you would know what is going on here. DAMN IT! This is so frustrating! How do I help you? I feel like you and some others need help. Please let me help you!

    Yes we do have proof, and attorneys, and court victories BUT we need national coverage to stop the ILLEGAL TACTICS being used in violation of the constitution and federal law in "CHILD SOLICITATION" INTERNET SEX STINGS. Did you read the petition for the writ posted at the beginning of this thread? Probably not because if you did you would understand a lot more. I know it's not just one paragraph and it might be a tough read but it explains everything. I will try to sum it up in one sentence for you:

    The guys arrested in child solicitation internet sex stings are not child predators nor are they criminally liable for their actions when law enforcement pose as promiscuous teens looking for sex with RANDOM men on adult websites because they are not committing crimes and the tactics violate not only the constitution but the standardized procedures codified into law at U.S.C. Title 42 § 17614.
  35. Oh now you want to be a technical asshole after acting so stupid? What I meant was that legally they are proven not to be pedos. We can sit here all day and pretend to know what the guys are or are not, but in a court of law the evidence does not prove that they are so therefore, legally they are not.
  36. Random guy Member

    You have cited a couple of rulings that characterize some stings as entrapment. These are post-fact findings (as are all juridical rulings). How are you going to know what ongoing stings to shut down? Are there paedo-stings you'd like to continue?

    So, what you want is for anonymous to use our talent (as it were) to stir up shit and create some brouhaha around the fight against over-zealous paedo stings?

    I think you have a somewhat scetchy idea about what anonymous in general and Channology in particular is about. No-one her does anything because they are asked or ordered to. People does what they do because they want to. This is a very dispersed and quite international forum. A lot of us (like me) aren't even Amerifags. People hang around here because they want to take down the international cult of scientology. Occasionally other cases come along that garner support. The Tunisian spring was one such cause, the same was the Wikileaks and Snowdon cases.

    You can't order us to support you and your cause. You can present your cause, and if some here feel like it, they'll support you. If you get asked to present your case more concisely and to support dox, than that's all you can do if you want support. If people ask critical questions, it means you haven't been concise enough, or that your dox are found to be weak or irrelevant. Bitching and cursing at those being critical will erode the only currency that cab buy you support, namely sympathy.

    that_is_why_you_fail_by_jigajig-d4i2mqs.jpg
    • Like Like x 5
  37. laughingsock Member

    Here's an idea, don't troll the webs for sex and then take a shower, shave, go upstairs get some of your dads old spice and apply liberaly.

    Go to a bar, or a club buy some drinks. Repeat until you get laid.
  38. Yes! That is exactly what the cops said to us about the illegal tactics. Therefore, the point is that this is not a war against child predators but a war against hooking up online. However, this is not illegal and not an excuse to ruin lives as you see fit just because you don't agree with the stupid shit that you tested the virtue of.
  39. Adult friend finder is perfectly legal. I know swingers who hook up there.

    Part of what fuels this is the huge number of unattached males vs unattached females on these sites. Most women who participate on the sites are part of a couple so any supposedly single female that comes around is going to get attention.

    All I can say is that one neither wants cops or psychos in their lives. From the sound of it, there were a lot of red flags thrown that were ignored: spurious age, persistent calls, etc. Just put the pussy down and walk away guys, that sort of thing will bite you sooner or later.

    If one is worried, I'm sure the bar, as mentioned above is a better hook-up place. the beer goggles are readily availiable and the ages are vetted by the establishement. Nix on the Old Spice though, that shit is freudian levels of creepy.
    • Like Like x 2
  40. Yes you see but the ages on the adult site are also supposed to be "vetted by the establishment". The mere fact that you said to "put the pussy down and walk away" is another reason why these tactics are entrapment. It has long been settled that using legal sex to lure someone to commit a crime is entrapment and that is exactly what is going on. Men are expecting legal sex with adults because of the terms of use of the websites which are contracts between the site and the users. (If the terms are violated, the user cannot use the site.) Then, he finally finds a "real adult person" offering sex. He is already hooked before the minors age is revealed. Therefore, put the pussy down boys and think with the right heads. This advice should apply to all men, not just men arrested in stings. Furthermore, when the guys hesitate and don't outright take the bait, they get pushed and sometimes even called names and belittled just to get them to show up. Finally, the reason why people even use these sites in the first place is because they don't have the balls (like some men do) to just walk up to a woman in the bar and solicit her for sex. They can safely be rejected on the internet because nobody is watching. They have self esteem and maybe even depression issues in the first place and are trying to escape reality by role playing on the web. It has long been proven that people act completely different on the internet.

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