"Illegal practice of pharmacy"

Discussion in 'Narconon' started by RolandRB, Apr 26, 2012.

  1. Dragononymous Member

    The above mentioned by wuticanreply? (which basicly is the same as you did in the UK)
    + I'll try to get that website/company gone by the law myself.

    (So basicly we would do the same thing twice, just in two different ways)
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Roland, dragon,

    I did some research whether and the other vitamin site can be reported. They can't. At the moment, we have the document with European upper levels for vitamin doses, for which the links are already in the thread.

    However, this is a scientific study paper, not a legislative document. That document will follow later this year, hopefully. The upper limits in the scientific study paper, will then become law.

    Once the formal legislative documents is in effect, this will translate immediately into Dutch law, which currently has a reference to this yet to be drafted European legislative document. If you look at current Dutch law, there are already upper limits in place for vitamin A and D, but not niacin.

    The voedsel and warenautoriteit, where we would report the vitamin resellers, confirmed on their site they will do jack shit until that European document is finalized.

    I am also aware of mututal recognition in this area, so not only Dutch and European law plays a role here, but also English law. I doubt however this will spur the Dutch authority into action - this will certainly require visible action by English regulators.

    We can still address the issue with the inspector Gezondheidszorg though, since not endagering your patients is also in the laws which cover Narconon. The European document is really useful for this, since it clearly states the danger above 3mg for niacin, which they may or may not actually use. You see, the drug bomb link talks about the less harmfull form of B3, so I doubt we'll be able to proof convincingly that Narconon actually uses niacin.

    And roland, dim it with the tone, I don't have to do anything.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. RolandRB Member

    ^^ Don't forget that we have case law that covers this in the form of the upheld conviction in the Paris Court of Appeal for illegal pharmacy. This applies to all EU member states as the same laws apply there. To have legislation come through is good but we have no reason to delay until that happens. Case law is often the precursor to written laws.
  4. RolandRB Member

    Does anybody have a link to the original 2009 court decision against Scientology for fraud and illegal pharmacy? If an official English translation exists that would be great but lacking that I would like to translate the "illegal pharmacy" part of the original conviction as I think it might contain a lot more detail than the Court of Appeal summary and this detail would make more useful case law for other EU member states to use as precedent.
    • Like Like x 1
  5. RolandRB Member

    I'm leaving this one for a Dutch Anon to follow up.

    RE: Illegal claims about vitamins on an EU web site‏

    Reply MHRA Customer Services


    Dear Roland Rashleigh-Berry,

    Thank you for your enquiry.

    As this website appears to be based in the Netherlands it is outside our jurisdiction as we only cover the UK. We would suggest you raise your concerns with the Dutch authorities directly - please find contact details below:

    We hope you find this information of use, but please let us know if you need anything further.

    Kind Regards,

    Customer Services
    External Relations
    Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency
    Tel: 020 3080 6000

    From: Roland Rashleigh-Berry []
    Sent: 12 May 2012 18:32
    To: MHRA Central Enquiry Point
    Subject: Illegal claims about vitamins on an EU web site

    Dear Sirs,
    on the following web site with a given contact address in the Netherlands, claims for the uses of vitamins do not appear to agree with EU laws.
    On the left of the page in the "Product Groups" it list among other "Detox Vitamins" and "Counseling Vitamins". These two claimed benefits are not on the official list of vitamin benefits as held by the EU.
    If this is illegal then I am giving you this information so that the advertiser can be stopped from making these claims in the EU.
    Yours faithfully,
    Roland Rashleigh-Berry
    • Like Like x 1
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  6. RolandRB Member

    ^^ Don't forget that EU laws are higher than laws in individual member states and that now we have case law, as in what happened in France, to clarify it. This is something we can make full use of.
  7. Maybe, maybe not. But remember, this EU law of yours is not yet a law. The documents with the maximum levels we are quoting are work in progress that will become law this year or next.

    As far as the French case concerned, haven't looked into that, but in the absence of a finalised EU law and different local laws, I just doubt it matters much.

  8. RolandRB Member

    Yes it does matter. It matters a lot. EU laws are in effect in the Netherlands and have been for a number of years. These EU laws are higher than local laws. Any vaguary in the law has now been clarified by case law in the form of what happened in France to Scientology and it being upheld at Court of Appeal. It is now a legal certainty that Scientologisty is breaking the law in all other EU member states through illegal practice of pharmacy. It does not matter about when these maximum doses become law. France has already decided that the doses on the Purif (and therefore Narconon) are too high and constitute the supply of drugs.

    EU laws > Dutch laws

    French case law regarding illegal pharmacy of Scientology applies in the Netherlands and can only be overturned by a higher European Court.
  9. RolandRB Member

    I've reported it as well (the Price Vitamins web site, that is).

    I'll report the full Scientology "Drug Bomb"/"Illegal Pharmacy" thing to the Dutch authorities within the next few days.

    This is important and needs to be done properly, so I will do it. It is essential for the rest of Europe that the Netherlands does not become a safe haven for the Church of Scientology in pursuit of their goal to administer medicines illegally.
  10. RolandRB Member

    Confirmation of your e-mail request‏

    Dutch Medicines Evaluation Board


    Thank you for your interest in Dutch Medicines Evaluation Board. .
    We will try to answer your question promptly. Depending on how long it takes to investigate your question, you will receive an e-mail to inform you on the progress.

    This is a copy of your request:

    I believe the following web site is making claims about the curative effects of vitamins that is illegal under EU regulation. The contact given at the bottom of the page is for an address in the Netherlands:

    On the left of the page in the "Product Groups" it list among other "Detox Vitamins" and "Counseling Vitamins". These two claimed benefits are not on the official list of accepted vitamin benefits as held by the EU.

    If this is illegal then I am giving you this information so that the advertiser can be stopped from making these claims in the EU.

    Name: Roland Rashleigh-Berry
    • Like Like x 1
  11. RolandRB Member

    Useful links to EU member states Drug Regulation Authorities:

    I will give this a good read:
    - 13 -



    Section 1

    Purpose of the Act

    It is the purpose of the present Act to guarantee, in the interest of furnishing both human
    beings and animals with a proper supply of medicinal products, safety in respect of the trade in
    medicinal products, ensuring in particular the quality, efficacy and safety of medicinal products
    in accordance with the following provisions.

    Section 2

    The term ‘medicinal product’

    (1) Medicinal products are substances or preparations made from substances which:
    1. are intended for use on or in the human or animal body and are intended for use as
    remedies with properties for the curing, alleviating or preventing of human or animal diseases
    or disease symptoms or
    2. can be used in or on the human or animal body or can be administered to a human being
    or an animal, either:
    a) to restore, correct or to influence the physiological functions through a pharmacological,
    immunological or metabolic effect, or
    b) to make a medical diagnosis.


    mix in a bit of this and it gets interesting with its 100 references to the text string (not case sensitive) "vitamin" in the body of the text:

    Technical Bulletins
    Dianetics and Scientology
    L. Ron Hubbard

    With this as the very first issue:

    Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
    All Staff
    Purification Rundown Series 3
    (This data is released as a record of researches and results
    noted. It cannot be construed as a recommendation of
    medical treatment or medication and it is undertaken or
    delivered by anyone on his own responsibility. It is a
    contribution to scientific thought.)

    and at the bottom of the page:

    The primary purpose of the Purification Rundown is to handle drugs and toxic
    substances accumulated in the body, and according to the success stories pouring in, it
    certainly does that.

    With the doses listed on page 8:

    Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
    REVISED 31 JULY 1985
    All Orgs
    All Missions (Note All mineral and vitamin research was done
    C/S Hats under medical supervision.)
    Purif Admin
    l/C Hats
    Purification Rundown Series 4

    With the "Vitamin Table" bottom of page 10:

    This table shows proportionate vitamin increases at various stages of the
    Stage Stage Stage Stage Stage
    1 2 3 4 5
    NIACIN 100 to 500 to 1500 to 2500 to 3500 to
    400 1400 2400 3400 5000
    mg. mg. mg. mg. mg.
    VITAMIN A 5000 to 20,000 30,000 50,000 50,000
    10,000 IU IU IU IU
    VITAMIN D 400 800 1200 2000 2000
    VITAMIN C 250 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 to
    1000 3 gm. 4 gm. 5 gm. 6 gm.
    VITAMIN E 800 1200 1600 2000 2400
    VITAMIN B 2 3 4 5 6
    COMPLEX tablets tablets tablets tablets tablets
    VITAMIN B, 350 to 400 to 450 to 750 to 800 to
    600 650 700 1250 1300
    mg. mg. mg. mg. mg.

    • Like Like x 1
  12. Anonymous Member

    Bumpity bump...
  13. RolandRB Member

  14. RolandRB Member

    What is the purpose of the Purification program described in Clear Body Clear Mind?

    [IMG]The purpose of the Purification program is very simply to clean out and purify one's system of all the accumulated impurities such as drugs and other toxic substances, such as food preservatives, insecticides, pesticides, etc. See results for people who handled: extreme depression, their own son's drug problem, now feeling emotions that have been shut off for years and exposure to Agent Orange.
  15. jensting Member

  16. Anonymous Member

    crimson will be the result
  17. RolandRB Member

    Still not a squeek out of the British authorities which makes me think that they must be doing something.
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Intelligence Member

    The UK is slower than "Molasses in January" - LOL :)

    Keep pushing, Roland - never stop or give up - you're doing a GREAT job.

    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. RolandRB Member

    Thanks. To show my gratitude I just reported the uneven staircase of 68 Tottenham Court Road to the Health and Safety people.
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  20. Intelligence Member

    Good going - - the COS-OSA hates this stuff, but if it's not safe, then they must fix it and
    face any fines.

    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  21. RolandRB Member

    You've got me going now. I just enquired with Westminster City Council if they have a food preparation area for doling out their vitamins like they have at St. Hill and 68 TCR. Of course, I want it closed down, but I would get a bigger laugh thinking they had to get a catering licence and set up a food preparation area and wear chef's hats and aprons and then they had to close it down.
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  22. Anonymous Member

    Is this useful?
    The article is free to download for a limited period from html
    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  23. RolandRB Member

    This all got nowhere with the MHRA. This very same combination of vitamins was convicted of "illegal pharmacy" in France and was upheld at Appeal Court level applying EU laws but the MHRA in England says it is not medicinal. So the same combination of vitamins is illegal in France but legal in England and both are applying EU law.

    Dear Mr Rashleigh-Berry

    Thank you for your email below.

    I received a response from the MHRA on 29 May 2012, which advised that the products mentioned in the report would not be considered medicinal. As such, the claims made would not be considered to be medicinal claims and fall outside the remit of the MHRA. The MHRA recommend that you refer your complaint to the Food Standards Agency, as they would be the appropriate body to deal with this matter. The Food Standards Agency can be contacted by email on;

    I am sorry that we are not able to assist you further in this matter.

  24. RolandRB Member

    This one is not dead yet. I'm still working on it.
  25. Intelligence Member

  26. RolandRB Member

    The above won't fly in the EU because there have to be "substances" involved. See page 3 definitions for the EU Directives that have become law in all EU member states:

    Products making medical claims, as a general rule, will be regulated either by the Medical Devices
    Regulations or by medicines legislation,
    The revised definition of a medicine is:
    I. Any substance or combination of substances presented as having properties for treating or
    preventing disease in human beings; or

    II. Any substance or combination of substances which may be used in or administered to human
    beings either with a view to restoring, correcting or modifying physiological functions by exerting a
    pharmacological, immunological or metabolic action, or to making a medical diagnosis
  27. RolandRB Member

    You would not believe the back pedalling of the MHRA in the UK. The argument they are using is that vitamins are not drugs therefore any claim about them can not be considered to be medical. This is despite the definition above that they themselves published.

    I think they are shit scared of the cult and so refuse to live up to the responsibilities bestowed upon them. I have been trying to get into contact with them over this but I just get shut out. In a week or so if there is not response then I will gather the details together and report them to the European Commission as deliberately avoiding to implement the law.

    To make the shit stick I will say that the MHRA are encouraging a form of quack therapy tourism such that law abiding states that implement the law see their own citizens travel to the UK to pay money for therapies that are illegal in their own country.

    I think this will take about a year to go through the process.
  28. Anonymous Member

    ^Somebody has been busy doing stuff.
  29. grebe Member

    Someone with "MD" after their name actually said this?

    I am guessing that the UK has something like the US Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 (DSHEA). In the US vitamins can be classified as drugs for specific medical indications, OR they can be classed as supplements if used for nonspecific reasons.

    Advertisers have refined the art of saying something without actually saying it to avoid lawsuits. For example, they will have their sockpuppets do the talking through testimonials --e.g., "My blood sugars were up and down all day long. But since I started taking ViperOil my doctor has been much happier with my glucose control."

    Narconon prescribes vitamins for a specific medical conditon: substance use withdrawal. In that context the vitamins must be classed as drugs because the indication is very specific.

    If Narconon were recommending the vitamins for nonspecific aka subjective reasons, that would be obvious because many people in the Narconon program would simply not take them. They would not be required to take them.
  30. Anonymous Member

    "The Purification Rundown is a Spiritual activity based on and administered according to the doctrine and practices of the religion of Scientology as set forth in the writings of L. Ron Hubbard and adopted by the Church. No part of the Rundown is intended as the diagnosis, prescription for, or treatment of any bodily or physical condition or ill."
  31. Anonymous Member

    But they keep making the same "healing" claims in the face of their own disclaimer?
  32. DeathHamster Member

    Yes. Scientology always has a Cover Your Ass disclaimer that contradicts all their claims. There's one "Statements by Staff Members" that says that nothing promised by staff or even Hubbard means anything.
    Example of membership contract where the suckers agree to this:
    • Like Like x 1
  33. RolandRB Member

    So no need for them to do it and progress in Scientology unless they feel spiritually inclined?

    "The primary purpose of the Purification Rundown is to handle drugs and toxic
    substances accumulated in the body, and according to the success stories pouring in, it
    certainly does that."
  34. RolandRB Member

  35. RolandRB Member

    99% of people who do the Purification Rundown do not consider themselves to be Scientologists at that stage since it is a preparatory programme and sold on the basis of its medical efficacy.
  36. RolandRB Member

    These cunts have pissed me off by not responding to my emails so I have turned it into an FOIA request.
    • Like Like x 1
  37. RolandRB Member

    A UK guide to what is a medical product:

    On page 8:

    12. Products for persons wishing to lose weight (“slimming/dieting products”) would fall
    within the definition of a medicinal product if: (a) they make medicinal claims; (b) if they
    modify physiological functions by acting pharmacologically, immunologically or metabolically,
    or are marketed and used with a view to having such an effect. However, it is also possible
    that some ingested products with claims to be medical treatments and which act by
    preventing fat being absorbed by the body or as bulking agents could be classified as
    medical devices.
  38. Anonymous Member

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