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If you accept Mormonism then you accept Scientology

Discussion in 'Scientology and Anonymous' started by RolandRB, Jul 16, 2014.

  1. fishypants Moderator


    2499461-1394410947285.jpg

    :)

    You're right though, if there's not the self-interested dishonest intent (such as is present in the case of Smith or Acorah) then it's not immoral IMO.

    Lots of lunatics say they're Jesus - they're wrong, but they're not saying it to get money / followers / blowjobs.

    Equally, it's easy to understand why ancient people thought that thunderstorms were caused by angry gods. But we're not so ignorant now.

    NJ2LJp4.jpg
  2. nightfire Member

    So... anyone who claims to talk to God is a con man? Does that include the Prophets in the Bible?
    Also, you demands for miracles as proof is really funny.

    Now, lets look at your argument... In your thinking Joseph Smith was a con... therefore the current leaders are too. This argument doesn't allow for the fact that the current leaders may honestly believe what they are teaching, what Smith taught. Which would make them quite honest followers. In order for them to be con men they would have to know different and be doing it anyway. They may honestly believe that they are being given revelation from God. Do you have any dox or statements for any of them that they aren't? Do you have statements from people who have left the LDS Church who have seen leaders of the LDS church acting-doing-saying things that would show they are con men?

    I have multiple statements from many former Scientologists and Sea Org workers showing the leader of Scientology doing all kinds of bad things, and of his predecessor doing the same. Them doing things that are NOT consistent with their teachings, them not following the teachings they purport. Showing internal inconsistencies, because with faith the only way to judge it without being biased is to see if it generally is internally consistent. Do the leaders live like they teach (as best as a human can). Are they profiting from members? Are they abusing people? Are they following the same rules as the members, or is there a lower standard for them? Are members free to leave, or are they confined? Are any members not free to leave?

    Your argument is that Joseph Smith was a con man because he claimed to have talked to God. And you want proof, that he did. See that is why it is a faith, not a science.
    You argue that because Smith believed in polygamy he was a con man... So are you saying that the Imams of Islam are con men? They believe in and practice polygamy. Heck some even claim to speak for God.

    It sounds like for you in order to claim to speak for God a prophet must have huge flashy "proof" of it. (because that can't be faked...) So, by your argument there are quite a few biblical prophets that were not really prophets, as they did little but write down stuff and teach it to people. And King David was totally not a prophet because he screwed up so just throw away everything he ever said or wrote.

    How about you just use a little consistency in how you judge prophets... if this is how you judge people claiming to be prophets now, how about you take that same set of criteria to biblical prophets and see how many, "pass". (not many) Which means that all of them were con men (by your thinking) and it's all a lie.
  3. fishypants Moderator

    Yes. Of course. How could it not?



    They might. Even if they we give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they do, the whole thing is built on a lie.



    'Faiths' don't get a free pass for dishonesty with me.

    It kind of amazes me that they so many people are willing to suspend morality when it comes to anything that calls itself a 'faith' or a 'religion'.



    No, I don't argue that for a moment.

    I have nothing at all against polygamy between consenting adults. I wish nothing but good luck (and not too much soreness) to the polyamorous.



    It doesn't have to be big or flashy, it just has to be verifiable proof.

    Lottery numbers would work for me. If this is practical, please send them by PM rather than posting them in public.


    The "I spoke to God and he told me this..." parts, yes, of course it's all bunkum.

    Extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence (or, usually, any evidence at all) can be safely ignored. Whether we're talking about LDS's Smith, Moses, Derek Acorah, the 14 foreskins of Jesus, Thor or the Easter Bunny.

    In some cases 'prophets' may have been genuinely mistaken - e.g. the visions of one of the French Roman Catholic female saints (I can't remember her name right now, it'll come back to me) seem to match with the symptoms of a certain kind of epilepsy. e.g. Hildegard of Bingen and her migraine-induced visions of crenellations:

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MFuYKKbESaIC&lpg=PA6&ots=KHXz1xgqxy&dq=hildegard crenellations&pg=PA6#v=onepage&q=hildegard crenellations&f=false

    Interestingly, this article takes the amusing position that they were migraine-induced hallucinations, but that doesn't mean they weren't also messages from God:

    http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/1079/hildegard_of_bingen_voice_of_the_living_light.aspx
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  4. RolandRB Member

    ^^ What if you hear God's voice speaking to you in your own head and He tells you to form a religion? I guess it will be genuine then.
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  5. fishypants Moderator


    I'd check myself into the nearest psychiatric facility.




    Not meaning to imply that I'm in Nash's intellectual league, just using him as an example of someone who is spoken to by people who aren't there, and recognises their non-existence rather than making supernatural claims.

    Also it's a really good movie.
  6. RolandRB Member

    God speaks to me sometimes. He never asks me to form a religion for Him, though. Shame, as I fancy myself as a Jesus type. No, God wants me to pick up an axe and hunt down what He calls Jezebel and the Whore of Babylon and smash them repeatedly in the head with the axe. I just say to Him "winning lottery ticket numbers in full or no deal".
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  7. The Internet Member

    Fishypants,

    Sometimes whole communities will talk about personal supernatural events all the time. Somehow it does not seem fair to call a community con artists. But something fishy is going on.

    I think the human brain has some plasticity around the effort to separate fact from fiction and what you imagine your mates thinking has a big impact upon that skill. Memories are malleable. So even if you do not think you saw Jesus, you can come to remember seeing Jesus as you try to recall some event.

    We all benefit from the efforts our ancestors made to develop a fund of knowledge for cross checking new info. People poorly grounded in that shared library of tested info are going to live within a much more plastic reality.
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  8. fishypants Moderator

    I don't have any personal experience of such a community, but I'll happily agree that the human mind and memory are plastic and easily-fooled.

    I'm guessing that a large proportion of members in such a community might just be making shit up because that's what they're socially expected to do.

    The thing about visions and vague prophecies is that they're un-disprovable, unless the visionary/prophet is silly enough to start making predictions which could turn out to be factually untrue (such as next week's lottery numbers).


    Carl Sagan's "The Dragon In My Garage" (in "The Demon-Haunted World") is good on this:
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage

    Also people poorly grounded in the basic "this is how you tell if things are true" methodology of the Enlightenment.
  9. 305

    “One who deceives will always find those who allow themselves to be deceived.” Niccolo Machiavelli
    The history of our race, and each individual's experience, are sown thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a lie told well is immortal.Mark Twain, Advice to Youth
  10. nightfire Member

    Fishypants... Do you believe in macro-evolution as proposed by Darwin? Do you believe that over time small evolutionary changes will lead to emergence of new species?
    Can you show me proof? By this I mean a complete concurrent set of fossils, or samples of a species undergoing many small changes that eventually lead to a macro-change, including but not limited to divergence into different genus, families, and orders. Remember you need proof not guesses with partial records. And you may not include bacterium, this must be a multi-celled- differentiated animal.

    Remember claims that can not be tested, or have not yet passed the test are not valid. They are still theories, and therefore don't count until they are.
    (spoiler alert there are none)

    See, that is what is so interesting about humans, we like to believe in things, we like to try to make sense of our world. Your belief in no God, is not much different from a belief in God. Each of us is using the best skills we have to make sense of why we are here, and what it means to be alive.
    The funny thing is you are so sure that you are right that you are unwilling to entertain the idea of being wrong (much like many religious people) You are unwilling to open your mind to the possibility that there is a God and he does in fact talk to his children (us). That like any good father he knows better than we do (his children) what is good for us.

    You don't have all the answers, and neither does anyone else. Yet still you mock those who choose to have faith... You set yourself up as superior to them. You look down on them, and anyone else who doesn't believe as you do. How does this make you any different from a closed minded bible thumper? Any proof that I offer you, you would discard and tell me how it was wrong or didn't prove anything (just like they do). You would call it coincidence, or claim I made it up (like they do).

    Sure we could go the rounds, but like you trying to talk to a creationist... I just don't have the time or interest, because no evidence would be good enough. One of my favorite quote about this type of thing is this, "A man convinced against his will, is of his same opinion still."
    I'm sure you can find someone willing to try to convince you against your will... I am not that person. Go find them, argue, then pat yourself on the back about how smart you are and how stupid they are... because that is all you are looking for here.
  11. Random guy Member

    A mate(ette) of mine had a brother who became a raging Pentecostal. She was persuaded to join in one their meetings. The meeting took place in a smallish room with only one window, and soon heated up. Within an hour, paople started having visions and speaking in tongues and stuff. She was less impressed, and feeling a headache come on, she opened the window and let in some fresh air. Want guess what happened?

    It appear the Holly Spirit isn't fond of fresh air, because the visions and the funny language subsided very quickly. In other parts of the word we call that oxygen deprivation. It is a well known shamanistic technique.

    I don't for a moment doubt the sincerity of the Pentecostals in that room. They really were seeing things and feeling the touch of god. The results (the glossolalia) is likely a social construct though.
  12. Random guy Member

    Will this do?

    fossil-hominid-skulls.jpg

    There's a nice list of similar transitions at:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
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  13. nightfire Member

    My point exactly... there isn't one because of the issues with fossil gaps some of which can be filled some can't because of the rarity of fossilization. While this is likely what happened and there is evidence that has been strung together, it is not "proof" to the degree fishypants is asking for from Religion. There is no proof that an transitional lifeform, existed no fossil, nothing. Just the belief that it did. I happen to agree with the belief, but I can understand why some people are waiting on more science to happen (more proof). It will also help as written history gets longer and we can see macro-evolution happening. (3k years is just not enough)

    See I am not the one who needs such a high level of proof before I'll believe that something is likely to have happened. I find the evidence for evolution to be quite convincing. But if you are going to ask for a very high level of proof for other people's beliefs... then you should also demand the same level for your own beliefs, and if you can't provide it but instead take it on "faith" because of the words of others... well... you get my point.
  14. I agree that Scientology and Mormonism are very much alike (I grew up in the church), but not in any of the ways thus far mentioned in this thread. They are similar in that they are both giant brainwashing machines and they are both byproducts of the Illuminati (actually all organized religions are). If you’ll care to open your mind and jump down the rabbit hole with me, I will enlighten.

    Mormons are so indoctrinated by the brainwashing machine that they are blindly obedient to a prophet who would “never lead them astray”. This is hammered into their brains from birth. So, whatever the prophet says goes. Complete lockstep. Here’s an example of the prophet performing at a massive reprogramming fest held in Salt Lake City in the form of the 182nd Annual General Conference (http://www.lds.org/general-conference?lang=eng). There are two general conferences held each year. Over 100,000 Mormons attend these conferences, and millions more around the globe watch via live satellite broadcast.

    Every session of conference follows the identical protocol. Summarizing, approximately five solemn-faced church leaders (including one token woman) deliver anesthetically boring 10 to 20 minute “talks” from the pulpit (saying nothing that hasn’t been said 80 million times before), interlaced with two ominously sung hymns by the Tabernacle Choir. The prophet is the final speaker of the session.

    Now, if you pay close attention to what current prophet Thomas S. Monson is saying in the following video you will recognize that he is actually delivering subtle deep programming commands, repeating verbatim lines delivered from prior conferences, using a patent lilt in his voice to lull people deeper and deeper into a trancelike state. His statements, loaded with personally disempowering language, remind the flock that they are weak and helpless and totally at god’s mercy. Then, at about the 10-minute mark, as if speaking to a room full of children, he begins to tell a story about a little toy boat – reminiscent of how the story of Alice and Wonderland is used in Scientology, Monarch and MK Ultra mind control programming. He literally flashes the triangle all-seeing-eye hand signal while subtly likening the “children” to the boat in his story, which ends up in a very precarious predicament with no rudder or keel. He goes into great detail regarding the demise of the little boat, the suggestiveness of his message glaringly obvious.

    http://www.lds.org/general-conference/watch/2012/04?lang=eng&vid=1542112413001&cid=11

    Several references to death and dying sprinkle his final comments, and he wraps with a reminder to keep the commandments and that people are simply “lost children, tardy teenagers, wayward youths, and delinquent parents.” His words contained nothing of inspiration or spiritual nutrition, yet the slumbering congregation responds with complete adoration.

    The church’s connection with Masonry and the Illuminati has been well documented. But while most Mormons will acknowledge that the temple rites they perform were taken straight out of Masonry’s playbook, few Mormons have ever been willing to look at the history of why that is. The typical Mormon today is aware that Joseph Smith was a Freemason, but most are not aware that he rose from first degree to sublime 33rd degree Free Mason -- literally overnight.

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/masonicsymbolsandtheldstemple.htm

    The History of the Church records Smith's entrance into the Masonic lodge in 1842. From his personal journal:

    "Tuesday, 15. - I officiated as grand chaplain at the installation of the Nauvoo Lodge of Free Masons, at the Grove near the Temple. Grand Master Jonas, of Columbus, being present, a large number of people assembled on the occasion. The day was exceedingly fine; all things were done in order, and universal satisfaction was manifested. In the evening I received the first degree in Free Masonry in the Nauvoo Lodge, assembled in my general business office." (History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, 1978, Vol.4, Ch.32, p.550-1)

    The next day Smith recorded:

    "Wednesday, March 16. - I was with the Masonic Lodge and rose to the sublime degree." (History of the Church, Vol.4, Ch.32, p.552)

    Examples of the secret rites and ordinances performed by the thousands in Mormon temples compared to Masonry:

    http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech22b.htm

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/masonicsymbolsandtheldstemple.htm

    However, it should be made clear that, although Joseph Smith was responsible for the introduction of Masonic influence within his church, he was not the man who led the church into the illuminati’s grip. That was Brigham Young.

    In reality, Joseph Smith was a very visionary man (I believe so anyway, because I believe we all have the ability to communicate with higher beings); he really was led to some golden plates and he really did translate through divine revelation a fascinating tale of a larger than life ancient civilization. The story in the Book of Mormon is harmless and sweet – benign to the point of actually being inspiring. (It’s one of my favorite reads.) And, therein laid the problem for the illuminati. In their quest to control all of the earth’s religions, they couldn’t have some guy running around who actually *could* talk to God and whose charismatic personality was inspiring new members by the thousands. Right?

    Smith first came upon Masonry’s radar in 1826 via a man named Capt. William Morgan, who was about Joseph’s age and lived in the Palmyra area.

    [Source: “Dynasty of the Holy Grail: Mormonism's Sacred Bloodline,” by Vern G. Swanson, p. 262.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Pa1mMcw6NNUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Dynasty+of+the+Holy+Grail:+Mormonism%27s+Sacred+Bloodline&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fLN8T8qNEOaC2wXl9tzvDA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Dynasty%20of%20the%20Holy%20Grail%3A%20Mormonism%27s%20Sacred%20Bloodline&f=false]

    “Dr. Rob Morris, an American Masonic biographer of William Morgan, wrote that he ‘had been a half way convert of Joe Smith, the Mormon, and had learned from him to see visions and dreams.’ Supposedly Morgan was kidnapped and perhaps martyred by the Masons. Joseph Smith Sr. was one of the committee of ten men who signed an impassioned plea for aid to Morgan’s bereaved wife. It was printed in the ‘rabidly anti-Masonic’ newspaper, The Seneca Farmer and Waterloo Adviser.”

    In 1832, Mason (and of the elite Merovingian or "Holy Grail" Illuminati bloodline) Brigham Young appeared on the scene and quickly worked his way into a close relationship with Smith. Lots of Mormon men in those days were simultaneously Masons, including Smith’s brother, Hyrum. Recall, though, that Joseph did not become an initiate until 1942. The Mason-based temple rites were formulated just two months later. And within two years of that, Joseph Smith was dead.

    Most Mormons today believe that Joseph was jailed and martyred having something to do with the overthrowing of a printing press. In reality, it is likely that Brigham and his illuminati overlords in the Vatican used Smith’s being jailed for treason as the opportunity to eliminate him. That had been the plan all along. The bigger plan after getting rid of Smith was to move the body of Mormons to an isolated area where they would be more easily contained and controlled. Smith had supposedly been planning to move the Saints to “a place in the west where they would be safe”, a place he had seen in a vision. After gaining the position as prophet of the church (in much the same way Miscavige took over Scientology), Brigham initiated the evacuation plan with waves of “company’s” of Mormons leaving Nauvoo and pioneering their way to that location in the west – a place that Brigham was confident he would recognize through inspiration from the deceased Smith.

    And, sure enough, upon his arrival at what is now Salt Lake City, Brigham firmly planted his walking stick into a patch of soil and announced, “This is it!” He had arrived at the place where Smith had envisioned. The Saints would be safe here in this desolate area a thousand miles from the U.S. border…

    Yet, there remains one interesting coincidence.

    http://www.worldgrid.net/516/religious-temples-on-the-world-grid/

    “Religious Temples on the World Grid

    30, 7.5, 6, and 1 grid lines going through Temple Square in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

    Readers in the US will immediately recognize this as the famous Temple Square in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. It is the worldwide headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS), also known as the Mormon church.

    Temple Square is a ten acre complex located in the center of Salt Lake City, Utah. In recent years, the usage of the name has gradually changed to include several other church facilities immediately adjacent to Temple Square. Contained within Temple Square proper are the Salt Lake Temple, Salt Lake Tabernacle, Salt Lake Assembly Hall, the Seagull Monument and two visitors’ centers.

    What makes this place unique is that it is positioned where four different resolution grid lines (30, 7.5, 6 and 1) line up in the same place. So far, this is the only religious site we have found to have this characteristic. This means that undoubtedly, the founders of the church had access to very advanced knowledge. People can argue whether they knew the information or were given it. Some will even say they were led to the exact place. However, that is a debate we will leave to others. All we are saying is that the placement of Temple Square could not have been an accident.”

    The Salt Lake temple sits directly on the Vatican ley line, which also intersects with the bank across the street from Temple Square, which is the building pictured at the end of the lines.
    --------------------

    Without question, Brigham, who claimed he got the design for the Salt Lake Temple "by revelation", intentionally incorporated myriad Masonic occult designs on the structure’s stone surface:

    http://www.mazeministry.com/resources/books/doombook/doomtext/20architecture.htm

    1. All-seeing-eye – an eye in a triangle surrounded by rays of light – like an Egyptian symbol of Herupaar-Kraat, the Widget Eye. Heru was the hawk-headed lord of Satanic power.
    2. Masonic handshakes.
    3. Suns – symbols of the ancient sungod, Ba’al, the archrival of the true Biblical god, Yahweh (I Kings 18 and elsewhere).
    4. Moon phases – symbols of the witch goddess, Diana or Artemis, the queen of heaven. The dark phases of the Moon are for black magick, the full phases of the Moon for white magick.
    5. Upright pentagrams (5-pointed star) – the universal symbol of witchcraft and the goddess. Its richness in meaning is far too lengthy to detail here. Suffice it to say that there is no single symbol more associated with magick.
    6. Big Dipper constellation (Ursa Major) – all constellations have magickal significance. This one was sacred to the ancient Egyptian worship of Set (the Egyptian god of evil) and was used by Set’s votaries to determine the time of his ascendancy.
    7. Inverted pentagrams (single point down) – universally regarded as an evil symbol, many witches will not use it because it is used to call down the power of Satan! (51) (Also found on the Logan temple.) Eleven large inverted pentagrams decorated the Nauvoo Temple. (51A)
    8. Hexagram – (6 pointed star within a circle), though sometimes associated with Judaism, this star when within a circle is the symbol of the anti-Christ. It has 6 points, 6 angles, and an interior polygon of 6 sides – hence the perfect symbol of 666. Though I have not found this on the Salt Lake Temple, it is right across the park, emblazoned all over the Assembly Hall. And it exists in a stronger form on the Logan temple: inverted, with two points up.
    Brigham perpetuated Masonry deep into the social fabric of Salt Lake City, establishing Masonic schools and even seeking permission from England's Freemasons for a public charter so the Mormons could have their own Masonic rite. The request was refused, but Brigham can nevertheless be seen wearing Masonic pins in historic photos.

    http://www.examiner.com/mormon-history-in-salt-lake-city/the-lost-symbol-mormonism-and-masonry

    Through the ages, most Mormon prophets have been 33rd degree masons. Monson is clearly of that position, pictured here giving Bush, Jr. the patriarchal grip handshake:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickleus/4586320400/

    The church’s connection with the Masonic Illuminati is obvious; yet not one word of this exists in the consciousness of the average Mormon today. But it won’t always be this way. Not if I can help it.
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  15. 5 Questions: David Bigler uncovers facts on 'first Civil War'


    By: Mary Clark The Press Tribune
    -A
    +A


    David Bigler, Roseville resident and co-author of “The Mormon Rebellion: America’s First Civil War 1857-1858,” says that Mormons will be the last great defenders of the U.S. Constitution. But in the mid-19th century, Brigham Young and his followers sought to establish a theocratic state independent of the federal government. The conflict which ensued has been, according to Bigler and co-author Will Bagley, misconstrued by historians, offering a romanticized and idealized vision of the members of the Mormon Church at the time.
    The book may cause a stir with other Mormon historians, but Bigler says he has facts on his side. Bigler, a Fellow of the Utah State Historical Society, a recipient of an Honorary Doctor of Letters degree from Southern Utah University and a veteran of World War II and the Korean War, has lived in Roseville with his wife, Evah, for nearly 20 years.


    1. Give us a brief overview of Mormon history in Utah.

    Mormon history tells us that theocracies cannot live within representative democracies without conflict. In 1857 Brigham Young decided to establish, by the force of arms, a sovereign theocracy in the west. Mormons at that time believed that they were establishing the Kingdom of God as an individual political entity. Over the past 150 years, however, that has been mostly forgotten. That in no way reflects the Mormon Church today. Today the church is noted for its patriotism and productiveness.

    2. How long have you been interested in this subject?

    I have studied the Mormon Rebellion for at least 30 years. The actual writing part has taken about four. The book was published by the University of Oklahoma Press in April 2011. The book stayed atop the bestsellers list for OU Press from April to June and remains in the top three. (Book is available through oupress.com)

    3. How difficult was the research?

    For many years, much of this information was withheld by the Church. Recently, however, it has become available, and much of our information was received from the Church itself. We also used diaries, journals, and letters from the period. Most of the documents we used had never been used before.

    4. Do you think this book will be controversial?

    Yes, only because this history has been idealized for so long. It has presented our ancestors in a heroic way, but a way that is self-serving. We wrote our book without assigning good guys or bad guys; we tried to make it honest.

    5. Why did you feel compelled to write this book?

    Bagley and I wrote the book intending to make it as factual as we could. History is important because it teaches us something. But you have to study the facts.

    http://www.thepresstribune.com/article/5-questions-david-bigler-uncovers-facts-first-civil-war
  16. nightfire Member

    I can confirm that the LDS church is part of a vast conspiracy... they are trying to take over the world with smiles and jell-o. They want everyone to be happy and eat jell-o. Why Jell-o? well that is the deep inner secret that you can only know about in the temple. In fact Jell-O is mentioned by name at least 10 times in the temple, and how to use it to take over the minds of others. It has magickal powers!!! BEWARE THE JELL-O especially the green stuff with shredded carrots in it!!!!
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  17. The Internet Member

    nightfire, you need some edumication about evolution. You sound like someone immersed in Discovery Institute propaganda.

    All fossils are transitional fossils. All species are transitional species. Also, we have DNA evidence which is amazing. I can try to find some YouTubes. Anything by Thunderfoot is pretty good. Chromosome 2 especially.
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  18. Stay focused, don't give up on defending your church from these anti-religious bigots.
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  19. Random guy Member

    I don't remember Fishy asking for the Jahve in person showing up and and explaining things bit by bit. A mere proof something's going on would suffice. Lottery numbers was a suggestion, an actual angel (or the fossil of one), a miracle under controlled circumstances for instance, would all do.

    Half reptile, half bird:

    SIA3672.jpg


    Half fish, half amphibian:

    Acanthostega+model.jpg


    Half reptile, half mammal:

    200382221.jpg


    The list goes on and on.
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  20. Kilia Member

    Patricia, you have said here what I have heard for so many years in the church. Thank you for putting it in depth and clarifying it for us.
  21. Kilia Member

    This has nothing to do with being "anti-religious". This has to do with uncovering truths about the LDS and another church. [ Scientology].
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  22. Kilia Member

    "Since the LDS Church rejects the use of the cross as a religious symbol, one is left to wonder why they would adopt symbols used by the Masons and Satanists?"

    True that.
  23. Good point, Killa!
  24. tinfoilhatter Member

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  25. fishypants Moderator

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

    Although I must admit that I do rather look down on people who defraud those more gullible than themselves. To me, fraud seems like an immoral activity.

    Maybe Mormon morals are different.

    But I can have all the character-flaws you like - nobody's perfect - and it doesn't provide you with a single iota of proof that Smith had superpowers.

    So - although I appreciate it's easier for you to believe I'm a Suppressive Person and therefore I must be wrong - it's not a desire to mock or to look clever, it's a dislike of exploitation and dishonesty (c.f. Scientology).



    My beliefs - like my character flaws (which for the sake of argument let's assume are numerous) are totally beside the point.

    What I believe (or don't) simply has no relevance to whether there is any evidence that Smith had godlike powers rather than being simply a con-man.



    Yes indeedy.

    Science (as we currently know it) absolutely does not completely explain the physical universe.

    We rely on physical observations and experiments to make our knowledge of the universe more complete.

    Any physical experiment (no matter how apparently small or trivial), repeatable in controlled conditions by independent observers, which shows paranormal / miraculous activity (such as genuine prophecy) would be enough to prove that something previously unknown/unproven was going on. Which I personally would find tremendously exciting and interesting.

    So no, I'm not asking for the heavenly host to descend en masse.

    Just any single piece of objectively verifiable evidence, no matter how small.



    I'm absolutely not asking for any evidence for other people's beliefs.

    I'm asking you for evidence of the facts you're asserting - e.g. that Smith had a message from God about the harmfulness of tobacco.

    There's a difference between facts and beliefs.

    Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but they're not entitled to their own facts.




    Also, watch out for the lizard people.

    h3F55772F.jpg
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  26. Thanks for the head's up, fishypants! Will do!

    P.S. For the record I have no character flaws and am perfect.
    • Like Like x 3
  27. hypnotoad4u Member

    I'm sure a lot of religions started off as jokes until they realized how much money they could make. You could claim anything and some dumbass will believe you. The world is full of idiots, get enough of them to believe your crap and you have a religion! I don't know much about Mormonism but that suggests to me that they aren't anywhere near as destructive as Scientology, especially since the latter has a seemingly endless amount of criticism about it. How often do Mormons sue people who criticize them? It's easy to compare any church to another, but imagine if a Catholic priest taped confessions then used them to blackmail people. Scientology claims they do this for training, yet the Catholic priesthood has trained people for thousands of years without this method, so surely the might of Scientology could too. Although they wouldn't be able to extort people otherwise. Nor would they be able to teach people how to brainwash new recruits. If ever there was a source of pure evil in this world it would be that of Scientology. They care about nothing other than money and power, particularly their dictator David Miscavige who hides behind endless bureaucracy and an army of lawyers. Absolute power etc. I could go into a mosque, church, synagogue and ask critical questions about their religion (in fact I have done) and tell them my views. Not once have I been threatened or sued or even slightly provoked, of course I have never done this in a Scientology place of "worship". The reason for that is simple: fear. They use fear in the same way George Orwell wrote in 1984. Anyone who says something bad knows the consequences, so that's why people only talk bad about the church when they leave it.

    Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews and just about any other religion would have at least one criticism of their church or religion, yet no current member of Scientology will EVER say anything critical, until they leave that is. Fear, torture, forced labor, seclusion, torment, ridicule and harassment are just some of the usual replies to any form of criticism. Fuck Scientology and fuck DM.
    • Like Like x 5
  28. fishypants Moderator

    I wouldn't try that with ISIS.


    Of course! But they kill very few people a year really compared to religious zealots of other faiths. They chop off very few heads - and just by virtue of smaller numbers, I'm pretty sure they abuse less children than people within the Catholic church. Getting rid of Scientology is an achievable target for us though, let's be honest here.
  29. Random guy Member

    Their unwarranted self-importance is why they have the Internet on their back. There are lots of small, asshole cults out there, but most don't pretend to have millions of members and bother random people who give them critique.
    • Like Like x 2
  30. fishypants Moderator


    Kind of broadly agree but not 100% sure. I can think of more self-important cults (e.g. Messiah David Koresh) and more asshole-ish cults (e.g. Westboro "god hates fags" Baptist). I think it's the the attempts to silence critics primarily that have brought them so much attention.

    There can be more than one reason of course.

    Also I suppose it's that Scientology are 'here' in the western world (compared to ISIS for example).
  31. tinfoilhatter Member


    ISIS is a very bad example. They are probably about to be dealt with harshly very soon. I will be in trouble for saying this, but i am suspicious that the Isis and Hamas connection was deeper and stronger then we thought. We know it was strong enough for Iran to cut all funding and support to hamas(someone must have died of frostbite in hell). It also would be a very tempting group to ally with for hamas, especially if they did succeed in making a large Islamic state near by.
  32. fishypants Moderator

    I think they're a pretty good example of people who don't let you ask questions or have doubts about their (and your, if you want to stick around) religion.

    As for who-backs-who in the Middle East, quite frankly fuck only knows.




    sEQxqIY.jpg

    Of course that was a while ago, so everything will be the other way around now (or vice versa).

    Adding ISIS, the Iraqi state, the Iraqi Kurds, the CIA and the Marcab Confederary to that chart is left as an exercise for the reader.

    Ah, here's a more up-to-date chart:

    20140718_Frenemies.jpg

    ISIS seems to have even less friends in the region than Israel, which is an achievement.

    And another one:

    EDITED_conflicts_graph-12.jpg
    • Like Like x 2
  33. PresidentShaw Member

  34. RightOn Member

    ^ That goes for Hubbard too.
    Although he would have taken the credit for the magic underwear.
  35. hypnotoad4u Member

    I recall an episode where Ross Kemp was talking to a suicide bomber just before he went to do his "job". The guy was strapped with explosives. Ross asked him why he was doing it, what purpose it served and is there any point in ruining your life. I would call that criticism, and criticism that could have easily got him killed, yet they answered the questions and gave their reasons for doing so. Scientology could also just answer criticisms without any need for retaliation, but they can't answer real criticism because they know their !religion" is a fucking joke. Their actions are brainwashed into them by the writings of a self-confessed madman and clinically diagnosed schizophrenic. People from all walks of life are pedophiles, murderers, rapists, fraudsters and such, and their religion has nothing to do with that behavior. Scientologists protect their doctrine because they know the consequences if they don't. Imagine you are a member of the most feared institution in the world, would you be inclined to criticize them in any way whatsoever?

    Another thing that annoys me is when Scientology compares some of their methods to other, more established religions, by saying "Catholics have excommunication" etc. but those religions are thousands of years old so it's perfectly reasonable they have old, outdated and pointless procedures, but Scientology is new so they should've learned from the mistakes of other religions and perhaps then people might be inclined to give two shits about them.
    • Like Like x 1
  36. RolandRB Member

    If these pointless procedures are put in use in the modern day then Scientology should be allowed to do the same otherwise that is religious prejudice. I think what is needed in the present day and age is for churches to be taxed. Brothels exist because there is a need for people to use them and they are taxed. The same should go for churches. A church minister is like a brothel's pimp. Further taxes could be levied on some religions. It takes a lot to fund the fight against terrorism andf Islam is the source of most of this terrorism and so Muslims should be taxed more because of this to fund this.
  37. hypnotoad4u Member


    The BIG problem with that is that Scientology will not release any of their beliefs, teachings, doctrines to the public, unlike every other religion on the planet. The only way for people to gain such information is to pay exorbitant amounts of money. Any good writer could make a religion and pick and choose the garbage from other religions; just as LRH did. He knew what he could get away with because he just copied the moronic methods of other religions and put a huge price tag onto it. If Scientology is so convinced that their religion can be the saving grace of all humanity why don't they make it as readily available as the Bible? Of course, then people would realize how retarded it is. I'm all for religious belief, but that belief comes from researching the religions and making my own mind up. Not being hypnotized into believing everything LRH wrote word for word. Then if I disagree with anything in these writings I will be called an SP or have to restart from the beginning until I believe. That's how they keep people paying more to reach so-called superhuman ability. Staring at people for hours without blinking isn't a power, it's fucking creepy and pedophile-like.

    LRH was a convicted conman; he knew how to manipulate people and he did so on a grander scale than any other human, except for politicians!

    John Sweeney was a war reporter and one time he had two sticks of dynamite shoved up each nostril, but he said that investigating Scientology was far scarier than the dynamite incident, that says it all.
  38. RolandRB Member

    Most Scientology beliefs, teachings and doctrines has been released to the public and what is not released regarding the Xenu thing, body thetans and body thetan clusters you can look up on the Internet. No need to pay a thing.
  39. Random guy Member

    Imagine the lulz: IRS, department of prostitution and religious entities. The fundie buthurt would never cease to glow!
    • Like Like x 1

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