Customize

Ideal Org London Business Rates

Discussion in 'Scientology Property Tax' started by RolandRB, Jun 13, 2010.

  1. Anonymous Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Definition of Class D1:

    The Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) Order 1987

  2. Sponge Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    You can register your premises with the local council under the "places of worship registration act 1855".
    Don't take my word for it but, as far as I can tell, I know of no scientology property that has done that since they were refused on appeal in 1970 (when they tried to get a civil court of appeal to force the registrar to grant a "chapel" at St.Hill as a recognised place of worship under the act.
    R v Registrar General, ex parte Segerdal and another


    I don't think developments in human rights and equality legislation since then has improved their chances. The above "Segerdal" test is still prettymuch as strong today.

    e.g. from the Hansard, House of Commons, earlier this year:

    Also, under the 2006 charities act, there is even less posibility of automatic charitable recognition via the "places of worship registration act 1855" and, even so, there a limited financial advantage anyway....
    Forthcoming changes to the registration requirement

    Basically you can't "bricks'n'mortar" your way into any form of charitable recognition using a local planning authority change of use declaration.
    "Place of worship" (on a Class D1 change of use) =/= "Registered place of worship" (as defined by the 1855 act).
    IMO If the cult were to cite a planning approval for a particular use as a reason to back-up an application for rates relief then it is more likely to focus on the "education and training" part of Class D1 change of use as a safer bet when gunning for rates relief (plus all the other dumbfuck vague provisions for relief, such as "philanthropy", which they fail to ask for quantitive proof for). It shouldn't cite any planning approval as a major reason for rates relief because the planning authority doesn't look that deeply into the activities when it grants approvals (read the City of London planning decision for confirmation of that).
  3. Anonymous Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Excellent.
  4. anonhuff Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    The meaning of that bolded sentence eludes me; I have attempted to decipher it many times.
  5. Sponge Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    I hear ya.
    It makes no sense.

    This is a nice simple explanation of how business rates work, taken from a random local authority website....

  6. anonhuff Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    So:

    Tax edit: reductions are decided by councils, which generate income via these business taxes at the rates minus reductions assessed, for the national government. The national government then redistributes the income generated back to the councils but not based on the taxes the collected but by the number of adult people living in their assigned area of responsibility. ?


    My opinion on is that it is horseshit because the councils will not feel the negative repercussions of their lack of tax assignment on a property. These properties are in residential-leaning areas, population is increasing more people are going to be living in the area that number presumably increases each year for these areas. Meanwhile the commercial/industrial areas don't have the population, their share of the tax income pie gets smaller the more people overall, but their tax liability presumably goes up as property/building values increase.

    I can see why a council could be easily swayed to either a) not give a shit and grant if unopposed, or b) be easily swayed by celebrity/glamour/free auditing/whatever, which can't effectively be countered by the general public who might oppose tax reduction.

    Sad.
  7. charlie Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Just on the D1, email from Sunderland council from last year

    May 19, 2009 07:23 am



    Dear Sir,

    I refer to your enquiry regarding the above matter and in particular whether planning permission has been obtained for the current use of the building.

    Following a review of Council records it appears that no planning permission has been sought for the use. However, planning legislation provides that where a use has been carried out for 10 years or more without planning permission it becomes immune from enforcement action.

    It appears that the current use began in November 1982 and as such it is now lawful through the passage of time.

    If you have any further queries regarding this matter please don’t hesitate to contact me.

    Yours faithfully

    John Bradley
  8. Sponge Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    I made that point earlier and it is partly true but also note the facts posted eariler in this thread because , as I pointed out, there is actually a split of responsibility depending whether it is mandatory or descretionary relief....


    Who pays for the scheme?

    The cost of granting discretionary relief to organisations is met 75% from the NNDR pool and 25% by the local council tax payer. The cost of granting discretionary relief to a registered charity, which is receiving the 80% mandatory relief, is met 25% from the NNDR pool and 75% by the local council tax payer.


    So you'll see, depending on the type of relief given (and hence who's money the council is potentially wasting), the incentive to be cautious does vary.

    So, if the City of London is giving away 80% mandatory relief on their rates for Queen Victoria St., which would normally attract 364,000 for 2010/11 according to the governments online calculator, then the local taxpayer is directly funding the cult to tune of: £291,000. In the press, in 2006 it was reported to be £270,000 and by the end of this tax year the average total will be around £1.4million in lost local tax for the last 5 years.
  9. anonhuff Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Thanks for the clarification, that makes a little more sense with at least some financial responsibility falling on the local council('s taxpayers) for discretionary relief.
  10. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Hey, wait on. Surely the 80% MANDATORY relief comes out of the NNDR pool. It is only relief BEYOND the 80% that is 25% NNDR and 75% local council.
  11. RolandRB Member

  12. Sponge Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    I'm trying to work that one out. I possibly failed stupidly on seeing who end responsibility belongs to for mandatory relief (although I'm not sure I follow what you are saying either. I need some beer). Eitherway it's bad news and we all suffer one way or another (derp!).

    Check your PM. I made a few remarks as I started to read that revision to your html doc.
    I'll read the rest of it later.
  13. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    I've sent the document out to some of the local authorities with a covering email as I have to get something moving on this. I don't have much time left to put into the document and I think it is fairly good as it is for billing authority purposes. I may get some feedback from them and this would be very useful.

    I would like to thank everybody who has contributed. I would not have been able to do this without your help. OG working with Anonymous is a good combination.
  14. RolandRB Member

  15. charlie Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    House of Commons Written Answers 7 May 2009

    Church of Scientology

    Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) of 31 March 2009, Official Report, column 1047W, on the Church of Scientology, whether the Church of Scientology is recognised as a religion for the purposes of (a) council tax exemption Class H and (b) business rate exemptions. [272240]

    John Healey: It is for individual local authorities to decide whether Class H exemption from council tax applies in any case. The Department does not have information about those decisions as they relate to the Church of Scientology. It is for the valuation officers of the Valuation Office Agency to decide whether any hereditament is a place of public religious worship which is exempt from non-domestic rates in accordance with Paragraph 11 of Schedule 5 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988.
  16. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Please, always dox if possible. Paragraph 11 of Schedule 5 of the LGFA 1988 can be found on this page. Scroll down to paragraph 11.

    Local Government Finance Act 1988 (c. 41)

    I am not sure "place of public religious worship" is the issue due to the failed appeal in the Segerdal case 1970.

    R v Registrar General, ex parte Segerdal and another

    The effect of this failed appeal is that no part of Church of Scientology premises can be regarded as a "place of worship". I don't know if they are hoping to overturn this.
  17. RolandRB Member

  18. Sponge Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    The well established "Segerdal test" should be the definitive decider on the term "place of public religious worship", regardless of CoS whining, especially in viewof the fact that the test case involves scientology itself.
    Another project could be to use FOIA requests on individual local authorities to confirm, in say the last 5 years, whether CoS has attempted to apply for registration as a place of religious worship under the 1855 act for any of their properties. Since the 1970 debacle which gave us that lovely piece of case law I seriously doubt any further applications have been attempted since, but you never know. It's probably moot and I'm sure the cult would be the first to boast about it if they did win any "recognition" as such anywhere.

    Getting back to the issue of London rates relief, and the involvement of lawyers, you have to wonder why the lawyers for the City of London apparently didn't research the same things that anonymous and some exes have researched to establish the highly suspect and non-charitable nature of COSRECI as exposed now on the "Today Tonight" Scientology Tax Scam episode.
  19. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    They must be trying the "place of religious worship" angle otherwise why should they apply for a change in usage for 146 QVS that includes "place of worship"?

    PublicAccess v7.4 @ The City of London: Application Details (05/00361/FULL)

    It would be a good idea to check on all their Martian Embassies.
  20. Sponge Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    It's just words though. On planning applications it's part of a class that includes "Church Hall".
    In fact if you look on the public notice (16 May 2005) it says (D1) "place of worship class XIII" which of you google you'll find from reliable sources that the XIII sub class of the D1 class refers to "Places of Worship, Church Halls".
  21. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    The html document I sent out to local authorities has now been webbed.

    Business Rates

    May it prevent them from getting business rates relief in the UK wherever they may be.
  22. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Just to remind people about two things.

    1) The document now has a home on the WWW here:

    Business Rates

    2) I STILL NEED UK prices for auditing. These prices are an insert in "The Auditor UK" magazine sent out to its members in the UK.
  23. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    I'm getting a good feel about this document now. It has taken me over a week and I have put in about 15 hours a day into it so that comes to over 100 hours now. I wanted to get the document to the point where it was watertight, bulletproof and bombproof, stuffed full of references that aid its credibility and yet flowed when you read it so that it was like reading a story. I am good at writing technical stuff in a terse style but more was required with this and I feel it is working the way I wanted it to now. I will never be good at it. I just aim to be good enough.

    Business Rates

    I want billing authorities to read this and where they have granted a business rates rebate to their local Church of Scientology to read through this, nod their heads and say to themselves "yes, we made a mistake".

    Please read it and give me feedback. I am open to suggestions on how it could be improved.

    If people think it is good enough then I have a new picket idea.
  24. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Wall of text is wall, and high. Has it been proofread? I'll try to get through it if not and give you a list of any errata, but wow... that's a lot of reading (and writing).
  25. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    It has been spell checked and a previous version had been proof read but it is worth proof reading again. Yes, it is a lot of text and yet I have tried to keep it as short as possible. But I had to cover all the points to make the argument against giving a rates rebate watertight so I could not skip anything. It is getting on to be about 1000 lines of text.

    Have I missed anything in my argument about the CoL mandatory rates rebate?

    If the case against the CoL mandatory rates rebate is totally solid then I have a new picket idea. I won't say what it is yet but I'll give a clue........

    GIVE US OUR £270,000 p.a. BACK
  26. Anonymous Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    I apologise for not going through the thread in full, BUT

    How can anything owned by the cult be a hereditament?

    inheritable => someone dies, ownership changes.
  27. Anonymous Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Meh - apparently because the specific law gives a completely different definition.

    House of Commons Standing Committee B (pt 7)

    So there we go...
  28. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    I can understand your confusion. It certainly threw me when I first saw the word "hereditament". If you look at the following page they define what a hereditament is right at the top. It refers to section 115(1) of the 1967 Act.

    Local Government Finance Act 1988 (c. 41)

    By "1967 Act" they mean the General Rate Act 1967 which you can link to below. Go to page 97 as shown by your PDF reader. There you will be in section 115(1) where the definitions are listed. Go down to the definition of "hereditament".

    http://www.england-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1967/pdf/ukpga_19670009_en.pdf

    Here "hereditament" is defined as......

    "hereditament" means property which is or may become
    liable to a rate, being a unit of such property which
    is, or would fall to be, shown as a separate item in the
    valuation list


    All it really means is a building that is not a dwelling that attracts rates.
  29. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    I'm opting to stay out of that conversation, materially. Wrestling with the cult here in the Yew Essay is enough for me without trying to sort through foreign laws. If you need it proofread for errata I can do that (eventually), but I'm not going to try revising the legal substance.
  30. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Yes, please proof read it.

    How about the links? Should I leave them as they are with the full link address on its own line or should I make these clickable links behind some words?

    How about the layout? How can that be improved while keeping it very simple (I use KompoZer which is a Netscape Composer replacement)?
  31. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    If people have not got time to proof read my document then can they just look at it and give me some suggestions as to how the layout can be improved? I don't use a fancy editor (I use KompoZer which is a simple WYSIWYG editor) so I am just looking for some simple things I can do to improve layout. I want people to manage to stay with the document and read it all the way through without getting distracted by layout issues. It's a long read.

    Business Rates
  32. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    OSA, be worried. Be VERY worried. I have written a document that will lose you all your business rates relief in the UK. You get a business rates relief of $270,000 a year on the London Ideal Org. You will be paying that and more for the others once the local billing authorities get to read my document.

    Scientology business rates relief in the UK

    And as for the City of London, you might think you have won a victory with them but how are they going to feel when they get picketed with signs that say "GIVE US OUR £270,000 p.a. BACK"?

    Be afraid. Be very afraid.

    You should have killed me when you had the chance. All you had to do was to make the Lisa McPherson Rundown only $500 and I would have gone for it.

    Too late now.
  33. Anonymous Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    LOL

    Roland, happy to see you back up to snuff again, no more hang-dog tail-between-the-legs hugbox crap. GO GET EM.
  34. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    My document seems to be climbing its way up the Google ratings for Google UK.

    When I search on.......

    Scientology business rates relief UK

    ......it was at the top last time I did the search.

    Maybe no surprise as this is the title of the document but good nonetheless.

    Scientology business rates relief in the UK

    In the latest version it will show links with William Thackeray's FOI requests. I finally worked out a way of including links to this without it being a distraction when reading the document.
  35. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    It's worse than I thought.

    The Scientologists currently pay rates of £70,336 on their London centre, having secured mandatory relief of £281,344 on the full rates of £351,680 - a discount of 80 per cent.

    ..

    The spokesman said the church was now applying for discretionary relief on the 20 per cent of its rates which it currently pays, which could mean the organisation paying no rates at all.


    Why did top policeman agree to appear in a film for the Scientologists? | Mail Online
  36. Anonymous Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    RRB, I like you!

    I adore everyone that has their very own RFW page, Keep on keeping on!
  37. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    This latest version might be enough to get me killed. You will see what I mean if you manage to get through it to the last page.

    Scientology business rates relief in the UK

    Are there any legal or para-legal people out there who can give me feedback on the document? That is the sort of feedback I am needing at this stage.
  38. RolandRB Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Don't like me. I am BAAAAAAD.


    Roland Rashleigh-Berry

    British citizen Roland Rashleigh-Berry is among the most virulent extremists in the anti-religious movement. In his postings to internet newsgroups he writes with enthusiasm about the killing of religious people and believes that all religions should be targeted for eradication.
  39. AnonyMary Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Yea, bad to the bone, lol

    Terrific job on your writeup on all this over t xenu-directory!!
  40. Sponge Member

    Re: Ideal Org London Business Rates

    Roland, put an inline link on the "Segerdal case in 1970"
    www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/audit/segerdal.html

    Also I don't know why your table of scientology churches/missions is intentionally imcomplete. I know you say you've restricted it to those listed on the scientology website but the other premises do obviously exist and we have information for them (I PM'd you the FOI source links and summaries before).
    My thinking is simply that it would show more cult premises without any business rates reductions, amplifying the cult's fail

Share This Page

Customize Theme Colors

Close

Choose a color via Color picker or click the predefined style names!

Primary Color :

Secondary Color :
Predefined Skins