Have we got the whole truth with Libya

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by Anonymous, Apr 25, 2011.

  1. Xenu Is Lord Member

    I would like to see reform. I think ultimately the ideas of Anonymous are sound. I like the idea of transparency and government accountability. Reform is preferable to it crumbling. What ever it is it needs to be a system of international cooperation based on transparent motives and there needs to be a system in place that lets smaller countries not be bullied by bigger ones. Otherwise we are just trading one form of dictatorship for another. The human race needs to press forward and not hold on to failed ideas. Out little planet is not doing so well and it is really depressing.
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  2. Anonymous Member

    You're stating goals, but not providing any system capable of substituting the current one. Does that mean you want the current system to crumble and be substituted by whatever comes then? If not, what concrete system (system, not goal please) can you propose?
  3. Anonymous Member

    Or, if you want to reform the current system, what would such reforms be?
  4. PresidentShaw Member

    Lord Xenu, you sound like many other well meaning but uninformed people out there.

    Everyone wants change, but no one has any idea how to do it. Most revolutions come to a halt and fall in favor with the people after the ''let's break everything'' part because of such lack of long term vision and/or realism.

    When you realise that the problem is not evil but incompetence, maybe you'll stop hating the US just for being the US.

    Hell is paved with good intentions.
  5. Xenu Is Lord Member

    Funny I was going to say exactly the same thing about you. No insult intended just my observation. If the road to hell is paved with good intentions the what the US is doing in Libya is taking those people to the darkest reaches of hell. I don't hate the US, I call it like it is, a Imperialist country that invades other countries. Evil is always a problem and Incompetence is just one issue but what I am talking about is intentional abuse at the hands of power. I find it very sad that some people think that butchering a lot of people and installing a pupet government is a solution to this situation. As far as my ideas on how to change things, I do have them and lots of them. What would be the point of posting them? I might be called fool hardy and well meaning? People that have posted here have stated they are happy with the way things are. Fine it is just to bad others have to keep suffering for it. You want one idea on what I would change? I will give you one, stop supporting US Imperial Wars of Aggression. Thats it! See how the world might change if we did not prop up this dictators in the first place. Remember we were selling tanks to Libya just three months ago!!! Remember??? Want real change, put the assholes in jail who sold the tanks! Right? No here is what we will do. 1. Support Dictator 2. Dictator falls out of favor. 3. Overthrow 4. Kill shit loads of people. 5. Install new Dictator or puppet regime. 6. Rinse and REPEAT. The solutions to this are really not complicated, brake the cycle and change will take place.

    PS The road to a better world is also paved with good intentions.
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  6. Xenu Is Lord Member

    Funny that is exactly what is going ion with the rebels in Libya?
  7. PresidentShaw Member

    The point would be to make people take your arguments into consideration. Otherwise you're just bawwwwwwwing without providing anything concrete.

    The world is not simple
  8. AnonyVix Member

    Obviously I can't be sure what goes on in a man's mind but I believe President Obama doesn't want another war.And I suspect many US people don't want to get involved either for various reasons.

    Indications are other parties in and around the US administration have varying feelings on this matter. With a significant group in Libya effectively asking to be "liberated" there are be those who will see this as an ideal opportunity to have another currently rich Middle Eastern state as a revenue earner much like Iraq. "We didn't want to but this is like Poland in WW2 - if someone doesn't stop him..."

    Is the USA the ring leader - well it certainly has the biggest guns but I'm pretty sure President Obama was being honest when he said he didn't want America being seen as the leader in this and he really does want a more "international approach". In reality there are more factors at work than mere countries. There are a lot of corporations who stand to make gains, not least the arms manufactures - remember every bomb dropped has already been paid for BUT still needs to be replaced; it's actually good for the US economy in a way because in that arena the US really does mostly buy USA. Obviously the oil industry, painfully aware of its own limited lifespan, is keen to get in there too. And then all those other industries who will "help" with the "rebuild" - those primitive towel heads couldn't possibly rebuild their own country could they... < serious sarcasm here. These parties include international corporations.

    This is no conspiracy though it's simply how people and the corporations and capitalist society of which they are part works, there is no central cabal just a lot of individual groups with coincidentally beneficial aims that gives the impression of some overseeing hand.

    Current situation seems to be a significant number of groups are desperately pushing for more action like Iraq while the political administrations in the USA and UK and indeed most of the rest of the world are being wary. If Gaddafi quashes all resistance while they pussy foot around then there will be a lot of sabre rattling rhetoric and in a few months business as usual; there are business factions hedging there bets and supporting Gaddafi too, on the quiet at least - or at least that's what they tell him. Meanwhile all involved administrations are gearing up "just in case" (fleets on the ready etc.) although the "case" is a bit vague. Have you heard - he has weapons of mass destruction and is capable of delivering them to the USA in 20mins and there is a massive terrorist plot sponsored by Libya to blow up the White House while all the senators are guests for dinner, thousands of Libya terrorists have already crossed the border and they have sleeper cells in very city with a population of more than 10,000...
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  9. Xenu Is Lord Member

    Oxymoron is not at all what is going on here. How many countries has Labia invaded? I have provided many links, facts and the like directly relating to my points. I never said the world was simple just one thing that could be done to make a real change.
  10. Loki's spawn Member

    I don't know if you're grasping the point I'm trying to make. I'm trying to point out that US interests can and have intersected with our own interests before, regardless of the motives behind each of them. Their own selfish interests can still be good for our own unselfish ones. My unselfish goal is to have the Libyan people free of Gaddafi's reign, and his torture and killing of civilians. The US' selfish goal is to get rid of a dictator that is unpopular, in an attempt to retain their political positions. Saying that they will impose a puppet regime in Libya is mere speculation, and is also unlikely. Obama is trying to do his best to draw distinctions between himself and former president GWB. Occupying the country would further that stigma and decline his popularity. You also have to factor in the other "imperialist nations". Do you think France or the UK will be positively thrilled to see the US taking over Libya? The US is not going to jeopardize it's global reputation any more than it already has. The reason they have to care about our interests is that this is not Libya, Iran, or some other dictatorship. This is a democratic republic, and if they're voted out, they're out. Our government is always at the mercy of the people, if the people would only stir themselves into action.
  11. PresidentShaw Member


    Ask any ww2 vet if he really thinks amurka is as bad as this. ^
  12. Xenu Is Lord Member

    I completely disagree on Obama. The guy is the falling all over himself to look like a rightwing sympathizer. As far as jeopardizing our reputation he has already done that.
  13. Xenu Is Lord Member

    Some great articles showing how much support Hitler and the Nazi's got from the US prior to the war, FURTHER PROVING MY POINT that this the same old shit.

    Yep same old song and dance. Yes US service persons are used and abused all the time.
  14. lulzgasm Member

    Dude, I would hate to ever have to debate you. You'd probably kick my ass.
    Although there are a couple points where I would argue with you on, in general I agree with you that there's more to Libya than what most people think.

    The middle east protestors lost the element of surprise after Egypt. The Big Boys finally have their game plan, and it's a nasty one from what I've noticed so far. Don't get me wrong; they're still stuck in reaction mode. But they're taking advantage of the situation in the same ways they've always been known to do.
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  15. PresidentShaw Member

    You do realise that eugenism as a whole was a popular movement during that time period in many other countries than the US, notably England, and that nazis weren't necessarly seen as a threat yet back then?

    We tend to look past on it as if hitler had ''MONSTER'' written on his forehead the whole time, but in reality he was well loved and respected among his people and his peers before going batshit insane and launching a war.

    That being said, I'm not here to give you a history lesson.
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  16. Xenu Is Lord Member

    With all respect you are not giving me a history lesson. You don't seam to be very grounded in history, just apologizing for the US's role in it. We are not talking about nor are the articles I posted a passive overlooking of a Monster. I am talking about an active involvement in murder and imperial wars. There are many fine examples going back further than WW2 where the US sets up conditions where people fight a war for a so called good cause and get fucked in the end. If the US is responsible for the removal of the current leader on Libya the US will be in control and not the rebels. If France and England are involved they will want their share further compounding the misery of the people. The US has turned Afghanistan and Iraq to shit to the point as I mentioned before that the people remember the old dictators as the good old days.
  17. SOJOA Member

    I absolutely agree but at what point do you look at the rebels and feel they are just part of the game or that they are the true voice of the people. Should the US have intervened, no, but it might be the voice of the people that they may be helping.

    I doubt it but you never know.
  18. Xenu Is Lord Member

    That is a good question. My answer goes like this. I can not control the intentions of a corrupt US system. We as a nation cannot stop the abuses here nor hold our leaders accountable. Last time I checked GW Bush was still a free man and bragging about what he pulled off in Iraq. Ok, saying that one thing I can do is to not give public support "legitimacy" to their plans. That is my voice and it has to speak my mind not the hives. The rebels are a part of the game if they want it or not and they became a part of it when they took up arms and gave the US and it's cohorts a cause. The rebels have choices too and they have made some. They have asked for the US intervention and already owe their existence to the US lead attacks. They were getting wiped out prior to that and that leads me to my next point. In my first post I asked the question who are these rebels? It is a good thing that people see what appears to be a peoples revolt and want to support it I won't argue that. But these rebels have no manifesto, plan or leadership. As far as I can tell it is largely tribal and supporters of the former monarch. I have no intention of asking a US Imperial war machine to attack another country so they can install a puppet regime that will be more loyal to them. All the while the side they are representing has no real face, voice or plan. In fact that side has very dubious elements, it can get much worse for the people of Libya. As I have said before I have no doubts that you can find rebels that have been wronged by the current regime but I do feel the rebels are not as large as people think. Popular revolts and insurrections are a hard thing to put down when there is popular support. There are work strikes, people feed and shelter the rebels, there is a declaration of ideas and none of this is going on here. Egypt was unified and Libya is not despite what people want to believe.
  19. PresidentShaw Member

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  20. Xenu Is Lord Member

    I was sure no one saw that? I hope you did not see what I did with the bugger?
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  21. Loki's spawn Member

    No, I was talking about what he is trying to appear like. He is trying to appear to be a moderate so as to gain the independent vote. Of course, this means that he has to negotiate with republicans, instead of the typical partisan bullshit that happens in Congress. People misinterpret that as being weak or in your case right-wing all the time. And yea, our reputation is fucked. I just meant that he wouldn't want it even more fucked.
  22. Anonymous Member

  23. Anonymous Member

    Don't worry about it. I've been depressed for days.
    Last week, It got so bad I called The Crisis Line.
    But after talking to them for awhile, I realized that the Call Center was in Pakistan.
    After they asked me how I was feeling, and I told them I was feeling suicidal, they got really excited and wanted to know if I knew how to drive a truck.
    • Like Like x 1
  24. Anonymous Member

    Your small typing is making me depressed.
  25. lulzgasm Member

    Most of this is about bin Laden's death. But the last part focuses on Libya when the RT guy asks the interviewee about radical Islamists in Libya.
  26. greebly Member

    So this thread consists of most of the bad things humans have done over the past 2000 years. It also covers how trying to establish democracies in countries that have never had democracies, can fail or suffer, due to fast tracking something that took western countries 1000 years.

    Other issues covered or intimated are:

    Slavery (been around 5000 years+ in every country on the planet)
    isms (been around 5000 years+ in every country on the planet)

    Basically humans can be horrible when it comes to:

    Control of information
    Weak diplomacy

    2 points to highlight:

    "Rachel Maddow did a report a months back where she interviewed Iraqi citizens and every one of them said life was vastly worse under US rule than when Saddam was in charge. Yes he was a murdering dictator but the US made it worse and they will in Libya too."

    The reason for this was due to the coalition not accepting the main 3 groups in Iraq at the time that could have taken office/Govt. the day after Saddam Hussein was overthrown.

    The video in the OP is just /facepalm.jpg more consipiracy babble I can't even be bothered to highlight the errors by news agencies over that 1st month whilst good folk were being tortured, killed and coerced.

    Luckily there is a thing called the internet these days so dissemination of information and knowledge has accelerated. This in turn helps everyone in the world become more freethinking, crictical, openminded(good or bad) and be able to watch videos of cute pets.

  27. Anonymous Member

  28. Anonymous Member

  29. Anonymous Member

  30. mojo Member

    the US is seen as heroic in Libya and the incredible precision with which the bombings have been done is nothing short of miraculous. libyans from tripoli are telling me this. the US win?? ridiculous statement. the only winners here will be the Libyans and the rest of the world when the dirty dealing that characterized the Gaddafi regime are put on display in the court system and stopped.

    Libya is not Iraq, Libya is not Afghanistan by no means. islamic fundamentalism...perhaps a small amount but there is no taliban there, no alquaeda which is increasingly becoming irrelevant this is about human rights, freedom of expression from a dictator that hung student dissidents in the town square and televised it, whose family and friends controlled every aspect of business, who sent his hit squads into a prison and murdered 1500 prisoners. who murders on a whim and if he can't get you, goes after your family and hunts them down in other countries. don't fall into the trap of believing the scare tactics or nonsense put out by gaddafi and his regime. Libya is different from Tunisia, different from Egypt. Gaddafi is a paranoid suffocating force that was slowly killing Libya for his own ends.
  31. anonymous612 Member

    **al-Qaeda. You lose credibility when you claim to know enough about both sides of your comparison to say they're different but not enough to actually know how to spell them.
  32. Anonymous Member

    Not all humans. Only some.

    It's genetic.
  33. Anonymous Member

    Less points lost for things that keep changing their English spelling.

    Look at how many times we've been told to learn a new spelling for Gaddafi, Khaddafi, Daffy Duck...
  34. Anonymous Member

    I usually agree with you but, this time, you've missed the boat. As with many translations, the exact spelling of a word in the new language is not necessarily written in stone. I do a lot of work with terrorism and have seen it spelled al Qaeda, Al Qaeda, al Qa'ida, al Qaida, al Qa'eda... Even AQ writing in English don't always spell it the same.
  35. ozumaz Member

    sorry, just one quick note on what was discussed at the beginning of this I am in no way a US supporter due to the previous president mainly, however also as its entire history is quite shady on its activities, however I feel I do need to reply on this; the US may have supported libya and many of the other dictators in northern africa and the middle east (back in the days before it was bombed to hell >.<), however take a look at the EU and they've done just the same thing, same with china, russia, etc.
    The only thing these countries are interested in is the "stability" of the area - in this case - control. I mean take a look at Hosni Mubarak in Egypt; he was supported as his strict and downpounding attitude and political ways kept religious wars off the streets. Now that he's resigned you have Christians starting massive wars with Muslims again, and vice versa.

    As to the way Al Qaeda is spelt - its not an english word, so there is no official spelling.

    Newest apparently confirmed information on Libya is that Gaddaffi has ordered mass-raping of women in this war to further degrade the opposition (aka rebels).
  36. SwordofTruth Member

  37. anonymous612 Member

    Yeah but have you ever seen it as alquaeda? There's attempting accuracy but failing and then there's "fuck it I can't be bothered to read a news article so I'll just take a wild guess."
  38. MochaKush Member

    I just watched you own kids through three pages of forums. I am very surprised to see how many are narrow minded and neglect factual information. It was a moderate debate between a teacher and a class room of students. Even dox rebuttals simply revealed your points further, as if America the great hasn't done the same. I guess when you feel that your heart is in the right place, it becomes like religion and you misread the context.
    Xenu killed it... - You think Anon612 gets red in the face when he refutes?
  39. anonymous612 Member

    what the fuck are you talking about

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