Customize

HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

Discussion in 'Leaks & Legal' started by SomeOldGuy, Aug 3, 2008.

  1. SomeOldGuy Member

    HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    UPDATE!!!! We are starting to see ex-scientologists getting C&Ds now citing specific (if inapplicable) statutes - please direct them to this thread!!!

    Added: First and foremost, if you have been C&Ded, harassed, or otherwise made uncomfy by the Co$, it by far in your best interests to report it, and here is a link to the specific post on who to report to and generally what format to put it in. The most important thing is that when the Co$ pulls something aggressive, always write the events down as soon as possible afterward so you can give local and federal authorities complete and consistent reports.

    UPDATE:The first batch of letters has gone out, except for a few where we only had the C&Ds with the names and contact information blanked out. We've been in touch with them to say "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG," and their letters should go out today or tomorrow.

    This second harpoon has been posted in a separate thread, because the info in the preview thread is not complete and accurate and (of course) there was faggotry. A few things have changed, and we're ready to roll.

    tl;dr: we have a lawyer who is sending responses to C&Ds sent to people in the U.S. - 13 anons are in the first batch already. If you have questions, ask me (some.oldguy@yahoo.com) or heidi (marcabiaforever@gmail.com). The only difference between us is that I'm from teh internets, heidi isn't. Otherwise, you will get the same information and be able to get fairly rapid responses to your questions. Yes, we'd be happy to answer questions before receiving the copy of your C&D. If you just want to know how to get your C&D to us so we can get a response letter out for you, skip to the parts in bold below.

    Here is the text of the letter of representation (definition at the bottom of this poast). We have the signed letter, I have seen it, sauce will not be poasted until after the first response letter has been sent out because we want to minimize the number of people spamming him with prank phone calls, pizzas, general faggotry, etc. If you want contact info earlier, send us your scanned C&D letter.

    With regard to all persons involved in the current protest against the Church of Scientology, I am willing to represent all of you by sending a mass response letter to all Cease & Desist letters issued. I will be performing services at my standard hourly rate, but I suspect it will only take me about twenty minutes to get the response letter done.

    My representation will go no further than responding to the Cease & Desist letters that have been issued to all of you. I cannot guarantee that I will be able to represent you with regard to responses to our mass response letter without working out a separate agreement.

    Please understand I am a sole practitioner and may not have time to speak with each of you personally. Should you have questions, you may try to reach me personally, and I will do my best to find time to speak with you, or you may direct your questions for me through "heidi" or "SomeOldGuy" on your forums.

    So This ONLY covers sending out the response letters. Anything else will have to be negotiated at the time it happens (which is pretty standard, legally). We don't know what the Co$ will do in response, and we'll burn that bridge when we cross it *cracks knuckles*).

    Why do you want to do this? Because even if the Co$ never sends out another letter, you want to be on record as saying "NO U" to the slanderous intimidation tactics involved with the letters they've sent to us.

    Regarding getting in on this if you've gotten a C&D:

    The fastest way to be included in a response letter is for you to send a scan/legible pic of your C&D via e-mail to me (some.oldguy@yahoo.com) or heidi (marcabiaforever@gmail.com). Please include your name and contact information if what's on the C&D is inaccurate. If it's been blacked out in the original document, include contact information, both for how we can get a hold of you, and the exact address that was on the original letter. Otherwise (such as if you don't have a scanner), just e-mail us and we can arrange something.

    Regarding the fee:

    The fee is only to establish that this is a legitimate business relationship which can be used to base further actions (if necessary). His hourly fee is $250, which means each letter (no matter how many anons are included) comes out to about $83 ($250/hr divided by 20 minutes) split among the # of people involved. (so far $83/13 anons = about $6.41 per person represented in the first letter - less if we get moar letters) Because of this, letter gets sent first, payment will be later.

    If you're not sure about paying for this, don't worry about it - same if you think we're advertising here. There are dcanons willing to pick up slack in the cost of the letters; if you see us, buy us a beer. We love beer. We will not, however, be paying for your legal defense the whole time. :fuckyou:


    Definition of Letter of Representation in this context:

    "Letter of Representation" is lawyerspeak for a letter that specifically delineates who the client is (people in the U.S. involved in the current anti-Scientology protests who have received C&D letters and who want his services), what specifically is the situation you need a lawyer for (C&D letters), what the lawyer is agreeing to do (write NO U letters), what the fee is (not much), and any specific limitations placed on the relationship (that you plz use heidi and me as contacts unless you've got a Co$ lawfag beating down your door).

    NOTE: If you were/are doing something illegal, or have a current criminal case involving Chanology you need help with then yes, you can contact him (again, just e-mail us) - but your fee will almost certainly be very different.

    Oh, and Harpoon III is delayed because we're going over stuff to make sure it won't come back to bite us (Co$ lawyers being what they are). It's not nearly as exciting as II, but probably Tuesday it will come out. It is a small amount of help for those who want to get their OWN lawyer in this matter.

    And remember, kids: Do not taunt Happy Fun BallĀ®
  2. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    And now, a personal note from me:

    I'M NOT DOING THIS FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE DESIRE TO MAKE THE Co$' C&D LETTERS GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS A TINY FOOTNOTE TO THE LEGAL DEFINITION OF "BAD FUCKING IDEA." [strike]IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BOTHER TO READ THE TL;DR, THE POST AS IT APPLIES TO YOU, OR EVEN POST, E-MAIL, OR PM WITH QUESTIONS, AND THEN YOU DECIDE BAWW ABOUT STUFF THAT WE NEVER SAID, I (with all due respect) KINDLY ASK THAT YOU PLEASE FUCK OFF IN ADVANCE.[/strike]

    PLZ DISREGARD THAT; I SUCK COCKS

    Thank you for your support.
  3. OSAHase Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Dont get me wrong, it sounds like a funny idea, but shouldnt we spend our legal energy on real threats instead to a C&D paper that doesnt do anything?
  4. Amon Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    ^^^^this
  5. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Okay. If you are brought into a courtroom, and you've gotten a C&D letter that you've done nothing about, a judge is going to ask why you didn't send anything back. It gives weight to the accusations sent against you if you do nothing about it. It gives weight to your claim of innocence if you do.

    Also, every letter we send back will require them to either do something, or STFU - and we have done nothing illegal in the raids. Also, their lawyers cost a hell of a lot more than we're paying for these letters. Not only that, but if you've gotten a C&D letter, being able to respond to it, saying officially that the implied threat has no legal weight, and directly calling their bluff is a much better thing to do than just framing it - or worse, dropping out of Chanology.

    There is no single big finishing move that we can whip out and end this confrontation with. Any legal fight involves many small steps that have little significance when considered alone, but which are essential to building the foundation for the next step, and those that follow. This is only a response to their opening move - if or when there are follow-up actions, we're ready for them. The more anons who participate in this, the stronger our responses will be, and the more effect they will have.
  6. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Also, serious question: when you say "our legal energy," have you received a C&D? If you've received a C&D, this is a serious response. If you haven't, then you don't need to spend any energy responding to what you didn't get, and we're not asking you to.

    What they did by sending out the letters is arguably a felony, and that's all I'll say.
  7. Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Okay - srs question - why do *you* have to send these letters back?

    Why couldn't you, for example, simply advise on a template which the original C&D recipients could base a response?

    I'm in the UK, so it's a different kettle of fish here anyway, but if I do end up getting one of their letters, my plan is to respond in kind with a list of the actual occasions on which they have broken the law and/or assaulted protesters and to say 'YOU cease and desist associating with them, you cunting felchweasels'.

    Let's say, hypothetically, I was in the US, what's the difference between you doing this and getting some money for it, and me doing it myself?

    Just to say also - I've noted your comment about 'if you don't agree with this, then just chill', but I'm genuinely curious as to the difference.
  8. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Hm, I need to edit that. I'm not saying I don't want disagreement - hiveminding is how we get shit done. I was annoyed because of what happened in this thread. I'll tone it down. Sorry for the unwarranted self-importance.

    I'm not getting any money out of it. If someone feels sketchy about paying, anons are covering it - but there's a good reason to pay. All we're doing is trying to make the cost as trivial as possible.

    To answer your question: if you're talking about a lawyer getting "beer money" out of it, that's different. It's been mentioned more than once that he feels guilty about even charging at all, and I agreed that this is better than switching to pro bono, because what it does is establish a concrete lawyer-client relationship that says we r srs bsns and STFU (the conversation was dragged out over several days, but that's the gist of it).

    The other thing is that if they contact you afterward, you say "don't give me this/talk to me/whatever - your lawyers have been informed of who is representing me; talk to them."

    Not that you'd want to turn down a footbullet on their part if they're terribly insistent about it.

    As to what you're planning, that's what we're putting together for the last release in this "combo," so to speak.
  9. Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Okay, cool.
  10. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    I should also add that it forms the groundwork of further action, should it be necessary.

    BRB, flashraid. Will check boards every now and then.
  11. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Two more people have approached us about getting in on this.

    PLEASE, if you know anyone who has received a C&D letter, let them know it's time to say "NO U!!!" :D
  12. Heidi Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    subscribed
  13. Kharnon Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    [disclaimer: i'm not an attorney. always consult a licensed attorney irl before taking any legal action or drawing any conclusions of a legal nature]

    I am not a lawyer, but this sounds like a very very bad idea. There is nothing to gain here. Why would anyone want to arbitrarily increase the legal nature involved here? The cult letters don't ask for a response or even suggest any time frame for response. They don't cite any law or precedent, and there's not even a threat of civil suit action (they mention throwing a hissy-fit to the police). Why would anyone want to be even more unnecessarily intertwined in that mess?

    Also, "SomeOldGuy", do you have a law license? Every state has UPL (Unlicensed Practice of Law) regulations. Specifically, urging someone to commence legal action, making unsolicited advertisements of one particular attorney, giving estimates on cost/procedure, and offering to establish an attorney-client relationship are all serious violations of UPL.

    The only advice I am allowed to give is this: If, for some reason, anyone wants to take legal action, talk to an attorney in your area or contact your State's Bar Association. Court proceedings are serious business with heavy ramifications.





    One more thing- Why would you want to give the cult a single target? Having one bargain bin attorney "representing" a whole slew of letter recipients, for a non-class action, sounds terrible to me.
  14. OSAHase Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Why should any Anon who received a C&D Letter be brought into the courtroom in the first place? Protesting is not illegal, there is no legal ground for Scientology to get any Anon into court.
    If a judge really would ask why i sent nothing back i would answer: "Because the letter was not targetting me." -> Since when is it possible to "slander" a group? As far as i know the Letter only said "Anon does this and that, we want to inform you who you are grouping with." -> Why should you respond to that? Anonymous can be everyone who hides his or her identity.

    Again, why? I am sure there are official law firms who exclusively handle crap for the cult at a fixed rate so i doubt they will loose money. In my opinion they will not respond at all.

    No, i have not received a C&D. You might aswell disregard my voice, but i wanted to state my opinion about it nontheless.
    Can you explain to me why it could be seen as a felony? As far as i know (correct me if i am wrong) the C&D only targets "Anonymous" NOT the individuals they sent the letters to.

    Again, i could be wrong of course. Also i am no expert of the american legal system at all. Those are just my thoughts and i wanted to share them.
  15. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    This applies equally to me, as I am not an attorney, and no advice on the web can equal direct consultation with a lawyer.

    Two things: In my non- lawyer opinion, the reasons you cite not to respond to the letters makes them all the more damning if they pursue further action against a C&D recipient and a response was not given. It also makes them much easier to counter.

    Second, the fact that no time frame is cited means that people who continue to protest can be acted upon at any time, and the court can be told "we told them to stop, and they ignored us."

    No, I do not have a law license - but if there is a group of people to whom a legal action would be "of interest," I can, as a non- lawyer, inform them of it as part of the process of getting them in touch with participating counsel. - believe the cost estimate is also a non-issue for two reasons: I am not receiving any form of compensation for this whatsoever, and the compensation for this stage has been made voluntary, and certainly after service has been provided - which means no money will change hands from any interested party until they have have a chance to see for themselves what is going on.

    At least we agree on that point, and if that is what you truly believe, then I'd ask why you gave such free and detailed legal opinions above?

    You sound like you have a love of logic.

    Let's try this one: If the premises above indicate a conclusion which is insanely foolhardy, then either the people involved with this are insane, or your premises are wrong.

    As always with Anons, we will draw what conclusions we think are appropriate.
  16. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Fighting the cult in ANY way is not pulling out a silver bullet that does massive damage.

    It's a long, hard slog, which will eventually cause some government organization to decide that inaction is an embarrassment, and someone will get brought down for tax evasion or sanitary violations (see Al Capone). The only way to encourage this is to pressure them on as many fronts as possible, on the most solid legal ground possible.

    As to why it's a felony, did you click the link?

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts - no slight was intended at all.
  17. Heidi Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    One, at least in my state, there is a REASON they don't ask for a response. If it were a technical legal brief it would be called a Request For Admissions (a document an attorney puts out that lists things you must respond to or they are considered "admitted." C&D letters are NOT Requests For Admissions, but when you don't respond, you show that you are not concerned with what has been leveled at you.

    Second, telling someone that it is your unliscensed, non-legal opinion that they should respond to a C&D letter based upon what you have heard, is not specifically urging someone to take legal action. In fact, a response to a C&D letter is not specific legal action in the first place. It is merely a response letter saying "I didn't do these things. It concerns me that you are accusing me of them."

    Third, no one HAS to use this attorney guy! ^.^ It was just that he was willing to do a response letter only if anyone was interested. :) I *believe* the reason he was only willing to do a response letter was because the law for just responding to a letter is pretty much the same across the board (but again, I'm not an attorney and I'm not giving legal advice). Anything past a response is going to have to be handled on your state's level.
  18. OSAHase Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Yes, i have read up on Title 18, U.S.C., Section 241 and the C&D Letters could probably be seen as an attempt to "intimidate" the free excercise of your right to protest.

    Are there any supreme court rulings regarding this law yet? I would be curious to read those, to see if there is some similar case already being ruled.

    What further actions could they possibly pursue against a C&C recipient? If we continue peacefully like we did, the CoS does not have any legal grounds to bring anyone to court.
  19. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    What she said, too.
  20. Veszerin Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    oh yes, Because the fucking Cult of Scientology does what is legal and fair regarding a court of law.

    Do what you fucking want.

    Heidi and SomeOldGuy, Thank you very much for these threads, and the hard work you put into them.
  21. Optimisticate Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Anons in Houston were approached by a guy claiming to be a lawyer who isn't one. This isn't the same guy, is it? He's in a bit of trouble right now (there's a thread somewhere here, when I find it I will post linkage)
  22. Heidi Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    When has that stopped them before? LOL.

    When you get a C&D letter, it is specifically addressed to YOU.

    That is not important. Just to reiterate, I can only go from what I have heard and I cannot give you legal advice, but your response is to protect YOU. Not to force their hand or make them respond at all.

    No, I refuse. LOL. ^.^ Everyone's opinion is important. ^.^

    Correcting you, in a good natured way. :) My C&D was handdelivered to my place of work, addressed to me, without an envelope. Everyone had read it before I had even gotten a chance to get there. I walked into work and was told that I needed to explain my "terrorist activities."

    That is one of the reasons I wanted to put stuff out about this -- I don't want this to happen to anyone else. I think if we start REPORTING (which is the MOST important thing) and responding and showing that we're taking it seriously, they may stop thinking this is as intimidating as it is.

    Also, you shouldn't have to feel scared and like there is NO ONE that can help you just because you don't have the resources to get an attorney. That's the only reason this was put out.
  23. Veszerin Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    .
  24. SomeOldGuy Member

  25. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    This is not the same guy.

    This lawyer was known to one of the C&D recipients LONG, LONG, LONG before Chanology, and has a set of specialties and a litigation history which makes him well-suited to this in my personal opinion.

    But yes, linx plz o.o /popcorn
  26. Heidi Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    I think this was poorly worded. No one take this to mean that we are attempting to form groundwork for a further legal action. That's not it at all.

    It's just that, should further legal action be attempted against any of us, (and AGAIN *i r not attorney!!* - only going off of what i have heard) reporting and responding forms the base upon which all other defense will stand.
  27. Deliveryman Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    This business strikes me as similar to the reporting physical attacks on anon to police, as well as to the mighty internet. By directly responding to the C&D letters, we are opening another front in this conflict. Not to mention we are getting an incredible deal on return fire harpoons :).

    We do not let scilons attack us physically unchallenged. Why should we let them attack us legally?

    Also, cocks.
  28. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    My bad.
  29. Optimisticate Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Linkage as promised, but not on Enturb:

    "Donald Hull", scientology - Google Search

    I think Houston anons should be notified, and may already have been because it looks like they pulled the info from their main page.

    Sorry about my question earlier, I guess the number of lawyers around here has me as jumpy as a cat in a room full of rockers.
  30. Heidi Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    no one should ever have to apologize for asking questions. :)

    but, yeah, lots of attorneys and lots of differening opinions :/ that's why i keep saying, this is just one... do with it what you wish.
  31. OSAHase Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Alright, this is mean to say the least. But still, i think they choose their wording in the C&D Letter with care. They accuse "Anonymous" of bomb threats, not you in person. The wrote it like they just want to inform you about the horrible threats the group Anonymous is doing so that you may distance yourself from it. Thats the way they display it in the letter if i am correct. So they don't accuse you.

    Of course, what they really WANT to do with that C&D is stopping you to protest. But they dont write it like that.

    Weird company still, if you ask me. If YOU would really participate in any terrorist activities you wouldnt show up at work anymore. But this is somehow typical behaviour for the cult. Usually they threat you to go to your boss and tell em about this and that.
  32. Veszerin Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    This is a cult that accuses people of crimes they don't commit and then tries to fabricate evidence that says that.

    If you don't believe me, i suggest you fucking lurk moar. Google 'Operation Freakout'
    or lurk moar around the Fair Game Board. read the c&d letter posted here: http://forums.whyweprotest.net/122-fair-game/personalized-c-d-23744/
  33. Heidi Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    oh dear no. mine very specifically said that they had reported MY illegal activities and had reported ME to federal and state authorities. and it addressed me by name, several times.
  34. OSAHase Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Okay, i admit i havent read the personalized letters. This changes the whole situation of course.
  35. monamia Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    do not accept letters from strangers
    misc crap handed to you by nosy associates should just be wadded up and thrown away
  36. RSK Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Thank you. Very well done and I may be participating soon as I think something is coming my way.

    In any case, I sent some copypasta of the OP post to my dad, I just didn't want him to miss it.

    Cheers,
    Rob
  37. Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Thank you.
  38. Smurf Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    Just my 2 cents here. I've been a paralegal for 20+ years (feels like 80). Anyhoo..

    1. Don't waste your hard-earned $$ on an attorney over a C&D letter. They are useless. If you really committed an unlawful act against the cult, they wouldn't be knocking on your door with a legal letter. A person with a badge & handcuffs would be knocking. I read that the mailing of these letters could "arguably be a felony". The word here is "arguably".

    How much $$$ are anons willing to spend in a long & drawn out court battle on what constitutes a felony or not. I doubt that most anons have the financial resources to do battle in the courts that the Scifags has.

    (2) An anon posted that her C&D letter advised her that law enforcement have been contacted.. this is utter bullshit. I'll let you on a little secret: Most law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, are well aware of the cult's BS and they pay lip service to anything they "report" unless it is a serious act which can be proven on film. Heresay by Scifags is as significant as wiping a horse's ass with a piece of toilet paper.

    The problem I see here is that some anons are not fully aware the extent that the cult will go to bull-bait (Google it) someone in order to shut them down.
  39. Veszerin Member

    Re: HARPOON II - C&Dfags STRIKE BACK

    no one is wasting 'hard earned money' its like 4$ a person.

Share This Page

Customize Theme Colors

Close

Choose a color via Color picker or click the predefined style names!

Primary Color :

Secondary Color :
Predefined Skins