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French trial: the media

Discussion in 'Media' started by Olrik, May 25, 2009.

  1. mnql1 Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Le Figaro - France : «L'électromètre» au cœurdu procès de Scientologie

    Quick translation:

    The "electrometer" at the heart of the Scientology trial

    Angélique Négroni

    June 3, 2009 | Updated: 23:15

    Billed at 5,000 Euros and supposed to explore the emotions of followers, the device is described as a "hoax" by specialists.

    "Here is the apparatus in question." With this introduction on Wednesday by the presiding judge of the 12th Chamber of the Paris Correctional Tribunal during the Scientology trial, the electrometer was placed carefully on a high desk, for visibility. This ochre-colored oval box equipped with two electrodes was at the heart of the debates on Wednesday. In the framework of this organized fraud affair, the purpose was to enable the magistrates to verify if this machine of modest size with pretty rounded forms possesses real powers, as claimed by Scientologists.

    Indeed, for Scientologists, the electrometer is essential to the progress of followers and is considered as a religious instrument imbued with scientific value. When a follower holds the two electrodes, the auditor measures his distress zones and emotional charge. It all begins with the auditor saying "Remember a time you were happy (or unhappy)". This continues for two solid hours of dialogue during which the needle swings from left to right. A charming ballet that sets a rhythm for what Scientologists consider similar to "a confession". "The electrometer allows tuning of the questionnaire," stated one member of the organization. "It also allows a member to better know himself, to improve, and to grow." A machine to explore personal emotions which has a real cost: nearly 5,000 Euros.

    "Lack of seriousness of this technique"

    Philippe Ripoche, a legal expert on electronics, approached the witness stand to give his opinion. "I observed things that surprised me," he began. One of the things he did to acquire a good understanding of the device's function was to try it on himself. While testing, he spoke out a recollection of an unpleasant moment and the needle fell to the right. For other test subjects, the effect was the same. "During recollection of painful memories, the electrical resistance fell by 10 to 30 percent," he explained. "When they relax, the resistance climbs back up." The specialist's verdict: "There is a correlation between painful memories and the drop in resistance. The measurements are perfect." Note that this expert was called by the defense.

    His conclusions are in total contradiction with those of other specialists who were interrogated in other cases and whose reports were reintroduced for this trial. One report emphasizes "the lack of seriousness of this technique". Another, more caustically, says, "It clearly appears that this device is nothing more than a hoax designed to give a scientific look to a procedure that has nothing scientific about it." Curiously, the former president of the Spiritual Association of the Church of Scientology in Paris, Sabine Jacquart, one of the six defendants, stated that she has never used it. She had indeed bought one, but the magical machine always remained in a closet.
  2. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    That is interesting, isn't it?
  3. Anonymous Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Somebody please remind the French prosecutor that they only have one org chart. Of course she was familiar with it.

  4. mnql1 Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Yes, that's odd. Two June 4 articles in French by different authors diverge on the tone of Sabine Jacquart's testimony.

    The first and shorter article makes her sound angry. The last paragraph says:
    The second and longer article explicitly says that Sabine Jacquart was in tears.


    Reminder of the trial schedule

  5. Anonymous Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    'fly off the handle' is an English colloquialism is it not? what was the French phrase that translated into that?

    the divergence might be due to translation differences
  6. Olrik Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Papers were all from french journalists, in french newspapers.
  7. mnql1 Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    The French expression was “sortir de ses gonds” (“part from the hinges”), which, in familiar language, usually implies losing one's temper. (Colloquial expressions are not rare in the French articles about the Scientology trial.)

    There is a third article, on the website of newspaper Le monde, which suggests that she was nervous and that her voice was choked with emotion. The article even says that "she cracked" ("elle a craqué").

    Pour ses responsables, la scientologie n'est pas une petite entreprise - Société - Le Monde.fr

    Translation of the first paragraph:
    Sabine Jacquart was a bit tense. For slightly more than a week, she has been sitting next to five Scientology coreligionists, like her accused by the Paris Correctional Tribunal of “organized fraud” and “illegal practice of pharmacy”, and then she cracked. On Wednesday, June 3, it was her turn to respond to the judges’ questions and, when she approached the witness stand, she gripped the bar nervously. “I am upset. All I’ve been hearing is that Scientologists harass and threaten people, but I’ve been through police raids at the Church and at my home,” she deplored with a sob.

    Source text :
    Elle est un peu à cran, Sabine Jacquart. Voilà un peu plus d'une semaine qu'elle est assise aux côtés de ses cinq coreligionnaires scientologues, renvoyés comme elle devant le tribunal correctionnel de Paris pour "escroquerie en bande organisée" et "exercice illégal de la pharmacie" et là, elle craque. Ce mercredi 3 juin vient son tour de répondre aux questions des juges et, quand elle se présente à la barre, elle la serre avec nervosité. "Je suis choquée. La seule chose que j'entends ici, c'est que les scientologues harcèlent des gens, qu'on les menace alors que moi-même, j'ai vécu des raids de la police dans l'Eglise et des descentes à mon domicile", déplore-t-elle dans un sanglot.
  8. TinyDancer Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    We don't know (or, I don't) how long she was on the stand for. She may have been through a range of emotions.
  9. Ann O'Nymous Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Aren't they trained to show no emotion whatsoever ? Did critics lie all along ? We should be told (;o).
  10. MongoLloyd Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Haha, well knowing Scientology: Money now is all that matters - so why wait until someone's a trained auditor or doing solo NOTs before pushing one of their $3000 miracle machines on them?

    Buy two so you have one for the car too! And a limited-edition one in red! And now buy the new Mark XXXVI Superbowl model!
  11. mnql1 Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Le «petit pourcentage» de la scientologie - Libération

    Quick translation of an excerpt from

    Scientology's "small percentage"

    ONDINE MILLOT June 4, 2009 06:51

    Tears. The days go by and so do the defendants at the witness stand. But the discourse of the Scientologists and its many grey areas do not change. Yesterday, it was the turn of Sabine Jacquart, ex-president of the French association of the Church of Scientology. Hardly a few moments after she rose, she broke down in tears. "For a week, I've been hearing insults: that we threaten people, that we harass them..." She quickly regained her high-pitched juvenile voice and defied the questions of the prosecutor. The fact that those who wish to leave Scientology are obliged to sign a waiver of any lawsuit? "It's normal in a country where we are demonized!" The fact that the organization chart of the association she presided over had a "unit for potential buyers", a "response statistics officer", a "unit for new methods to contact the public"? "There are translation errors." The money paid to members for each new follower they succeed in recruiting? "It's just a small percentage..."

    Source text:
    Larmes. Les jours se succèdent, et avec eux les prévenus à la barre. Mais le discours scientologue et ses nombreuses zones d’ombre ne changent pas. Hier, c’était au tour de Sabine Jacquart, ex-présidente de l’association française de l’Eglise de scientologie. A peine levée, elle s’effondre en larmes. «Depuis une semaine, j’entends des injures : qu’on menace les gens, qu’on les harcèle…» Elle reprend du tac au tac de sa voix juvénile flûtée pour défier les questions de la procureure. Le fait qu’on fasse signer à ceux qui souhaitent quitter la scientologie un renoncement à toute poursuite en justice ? «C’est normal, dans un pays où on est diabolisés !» L’organigramme de l’association qu’elle présidait, avec une «unité pour les acheteurs potentiels», un «employé aux statistiques de réponse», une «unité des nouvelles méthodes de contact avec le public» ? «Il y a des erreurs de traduction.» L’argent versé aux membres pour chaque nouvel adepte qu’ils réussissent à recruter ? «C’est juste un petit pourcentage…»
  12. 13Heathens Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Maybe they should have sworn them in on an E-Meter instead of a bible.
  13. Anonymous Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    The emotions might just be an act. Or they might be real. We never know.

    This, except of course that if they're senior Scientologists, they should have learned how to fake the e-meter by now - either conciously or unconciously.
  14. Vir Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    I'm interested in the credentials and any peer reviewed publishing of this electronics expert of theirs. In the U.S., when you bring in a science expert it is normal that they also testify about *why* they have expertise.
    The prosecution should have had just not previously submitted testimonials, but a senior expert who could call the defense expert on any mistakes or lies.
  15. themadhair Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Daubert standard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  16. Ogsonofgroo Member

    Re: French trial: the media


    Uh, yeh, it took one of their own to say it 'works'. some how, some maybe, in a glackzy far, far, away. Good fuckin' grief!

    Sabine J. knows its a frikken con, which would explain the lack of usage of 'Elmo-meter' ( personally I think a closet is far, far too good for this over-priced piece of junk)

    Watch the scambling lies, the 'disassociation', the 'hey, look over there!' tactics, the dis-avowments of their so called 'church/religion', 'Its a religious artifact', (oh its all outta context too), gah!
    Bunch of lying, thieving, mind-fuck charlatans, preying on the weak of mind to make them think they are/can be strong, while reaping them in the butts (and laughing to the bank of DM (hey, that'd be you David Miscavige).

    Fucking con artists.

    grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.


    :) (hey, gotta smile, the sun is shining and no forest fires yet!)

    :)
  17. Re: French trial: the media

    When I read about the plaintiff who was being pressured by her Scientology boss it reminds me of one of my favourite songs. The reference to 5 foot five is very relevant.

    Miseryland by Fisher

    MP3 Player (GarageBand.com)


    I learned to fly
    So you
    You ran to find the gun
    To shoot me down
    Before
    I got too high
    'Cause you could not stand
    To stand alone in the long line
    For your wild ride - it requires
    Two lost souls per seat
    At least five foot five

    Chorus:
    --And I don't wanna' go
    for a ride
    Down to Miseryland
    Trapped with you
    By my side
    Down in Miseryland

    Up in the air you wave
    Two tickets for my
    utter amusement
    You possess
    an express pass to unhappiness
    that makes you feel alive?
    And I don't have a place any more
    Down in Miseryland
    Trapped with you forever more
    Is not what I have planned
    So take a seat
    By yourself
    And wait to fall a hundred stories
    Better hold on tight
    Hands in--side the ride
    And don't for get to breathe

    -And I don't wanna' go
    for a ride
    Down to Miseryland
    Trapped with you
    By my side
    Down in misery
    have a place any more
    Down in misery
    Down in Miseryland
    I learned to fly
    But you are still shooting the sky
    Still shooting
  18. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    ...of how they were installed.
  19. Anonymous Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    An "electronics" expert tests an electronic device by holding it and thinking about painful memories? Someone please say this is laughable in a French court. How could this even be considered testimony? "I held it, watched the needle and it works, SO THERE!"
  20. Trev6 Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    I might have missed it ITT, but have the prosecution spoken about the E-Meter yet? Are they going to question the "electronics expert", or have they already?
  21. DeathHamster Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    ^^this. The bones of Scientology operations are based on the red and green vols, and those on Hubbard's Org Chart. It would have been up on her wall where she would see it all the time, and updated constantly (Thursday).
  22. mnql1 Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Scientologie: l'électromètre, arnaque ou véritable instrument religieux? - dépêches AFP - la-Croix.com

    Source text also available in another thread.

    Translation:

    Scientology trial: The electrometer at the heart of the debates

    June 3, 2009 19:56

    Paris (AFP) - On Wednesday, the Paris Correctional Tribunal attempted to determine if the electrometer, sold and used by the Church of Scientology, is an instrument possessing true scientific value or a "hoax" in a scheme to take money from followers.

    For the Church of Scientology, on trial for organized fraud and illegal practice of pharmacy, the electometer or "electro-psychometer" is an electrical device that allows parishioners to "locate areas of distress and spiritual torment."

    Presented as scientific by Scientology, the electrometer is sold to members for about 4,800 Euros, ten times more than its production cost.

    According to old expert analysis reports introduced into the proceedings, "the device is nothing more than a hoax", lacking in "seriousness" and "unfit to accurately measure any physical phenomenon whatsoever."

    This opinion was partially contradicted on Wednesday by two electronics experts called by the Church of Scientology.

    For Bernard Denis-Laroque and Philippe Ripoche, two recognized expert witnesses, "the device does measure something: the variation of electrical resistance".

    After giving assurance that he has no connection with Scientology, Mr. Ripoche confessed that he was "surprised" by certain observations: "when persons remembered painful memories, their electrical resistance dropped significantly," he said. According to him, the electrometer does indeed measure "a physiological phenomenon".

    However, when asked about Scientology literature concerning the electrometer, the engineer's response was much less favorable to the organization: for him, it's a "far-fetched, ambitious, and laughable logorrhea".

    The electrometer gives "an indication of stress, possibly", but with "absolute certainty, no": "it seems unlikely this device could be used as an aid for psychotherapy," he added.
  23. Re: French trial: the media

    Doesn't the needle on the E-Meter move depending on how hard you're holding the cans? All the expert the cult called in would have to do is adjust his grip on the cans while he claimed to be going through a painful memory, and it would actually look like the E-Meter was working as intended. I really hope the court realizes that his testimony isn't worth shit.
  24. Ann O'Nymous Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    I remember an ex-kid saying that many children born into it learn how to command it.
  25. Albion Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    More trial coverage up at Infinite Complacency:

    (Day 3: May 27) Scientology’s techniques abuse the transference process familiar to all therapists, a psychiatrist told the Paris trial of the movement and six of its members.

    Infinite Complacency
  26. TinyDancer Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Doh! No text.
  27. Touchstone Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    No text for part Five (today's entry) yet, but part IV, published yesterday, is there. I think the blank is just a place-holder for the moment.
  28. Touchstone Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Part V now up at Infinite Complacency.
  29. Albion Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Doh is right. Sorry, that same bug keeps catching me out -- and it looked fine on my screen.
  30. Anonymous Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    kudos to Jonny <3
  31. RobertPaulson Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    I have a friend who is attending college for neuro-science and he said that the galvanic-skin response meter (GSR meter) isn't bogus. He does however believe that scientology is.
  32. Ann O'Nymous Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    IANE, but it is not the response that is problematic, but its interpretation. If the analogy with the lie detector is correct, it is some form of stress test. That is why I always saw it as mainly useful for sec check.
  33. Anonymous Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    The entire concept of submitting to Scientology's security checks and the filing of knowledge reports against other members is disgraceful and is part and parcel of the cult's draconian totalitarian indoctrination. By subjecting themselves to the hypnotic training routines and constant use of the e-meter causes scientologists to give over control of their lives and life histories to Scientology. Both are used to entrap. The usefullness of these methods is for the benefit of the evil mother "church" only.
  34. mnql1 Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Le Figaro - Flash actu : Scientologie: secte ''des plus dangereuses''

    Source text also available in the French thread on this subject.

    Quick translation:

    Scientology: a "highly dangerous" sect

    AFP June 8, 2009 | Updated: 14:28 (Paris time)

    "It is one of the most dangerous, most effective, and greedy sects," Jean-Pierre Brard, deputy to the French National Assembly, declared today before the Correctional Tribunal, referring to the Church of Scientology, on trial since May 25 for organized fraud.

    For the deputy of the Seine-Saint-Denis constituency who, since 1995, has participated in three parliamentary missions on sectarian aberrations, Scientology has two objectives: "power and money", "money to gain access to power and power to gain access to money".

    "Sects," he continued, "are organizations which build opaqueness into their decision-making and financial channels" and are like "a drainage system -- you don't see it, but it works very well."

    "A sect comes to you and profits from your vulnerabilities, like the sticky ribbons our grandmothers used to trap flies," testified the former mayor of Montreuil. "It is a diabolical system which profits from the weakness of individuals," he went on, before describing the techniques used by Scientology to "milk" its followers, methods that include products protected by intellectual property rights and "fixed donations".

    According to him, the most prestigious "godfathers" of Scientology, Tom Cruise and John Travolta, have donated ten million dollars to the organization.

    In his view, the accused are "followers, but also agents of this manipulation", "the remunerated and remunerative cogs of an infernal machine" which "must be broken".

    Comparing the conditioning of members to the methods used in North Korea or in Stalinist Russia, Mr. Brard deplored "all the broken lives and destroyed careers". "I remember a young musician," he recounted, "who was at the start of a brilliant career and fell into Scientology's net: he ended up in a hospital, his career broken and his family's wealth evaporated."

    "Unfortunately," he concluded, "many victims do not take legal action" because "Scientology has money and legal proceedings are messy. Only the strongest resist the pressure and harassment."
  35. AnonLover Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    zomg - ^^THIS is just too delicious!!!

    Jean-Pierre Brard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    jb6ag1.jpg

    i think i &lt;3 this man!
  36. Anonymous Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Who said it was bogus? 'course it isn't. It just doesn't measure what Scientology claims it measures.
    That's the formula behind any good con. Start with a true fact (e.g. galvanic skin response), provide an explanation that's plausible-sounding but false ('engrams', should sound familiar anyone who's heard of regression therapy), and then build on that towards something someone wants to hear.
  37. JMBrandon Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    MOOOOOAR!!!
    I never thought I'd regret not taking French in HS.
  38. mnql1 Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    Le témoignage accablant de l'ex-patron scientologue - Faits divers - 08/06/2009 - leParisien.fr

    Source text also available in the French thread on the same subject.

    Quick translation:

    Damning testimony by former Scientology head

    Anne-Cécile Juillet | June 8, 2009, 21:42 | Updated: 21:59 [Paris time]

    It was a trying morning for the representatives of the Church of Scientology, on trial for organized fraud since May 25. Monday morning, they faced two witnesses called by the civil parties before the 12th Chamber of the Paris Correctional Tribunal. In all, only two witnesses were questioned, but these were two longstanding opponents of a movement they do not hesitate to label a "sect": Jean-Pierre Brard, deputy for the Seine-Saint-Denis constituency and, in particular, Roger Gonnet, a former head of the Scientology center in Lyon.

    They did not mince their words, accustomed as they are to lawsuits by Scientology and other movements.

    Brard: "One of the most dangerous sects"

    Called first to the stand, Jean-Pierre Brard has been on every parliamentary commission on the subject since 1995. "Scientology is one of the most dangerous, effective, and greedy sects," he asserted. Its two objectives, he said, are: "Power and money. Money to gain access to power and power to gain access to money." The presiding judge, Sophie-Hélène Château, asked for details, especially when the deputy asserted that Scientology builds opaqueness into its decision-making and financial channels: "It's like a drainage system," he explained, "You don't see all the little subterranean channels, but they function very well and water always goes to the right place," meaning by implication the American headquarters.

    Gonnet: "The personality test is rigged"

    The real details, however, were presented to the tribunal by the second witness. For eight years until the early 1990's, Roger Gonnet was head of the Scientology center in Lyon. A disagreement with its hierarchy drove him to a complete break with the organization. Since then, he has continued to study and track the abuses of his former movement, whose precepts he knows, whose regulations he has read, and whose developments he has analyzed. On the witness stand, quoting from a stack of documents, he systematically decoded the Scientology jargon and reviewed the key questions raised by the tribunal, in particular concerning the personality test, which is the first contact with Scientology for future recruits.

    One of the plaintiffs, Aude-Claire Malton, took the "free" test concocted by Scientology and this is how she was recruited. "It's totally rigged," said the former follower, "the results are computed so that you have no chance that your test will not be criticized." The recommendation is always the same: to improve, one must take courses and, consequently, pay for them. "It's a major way to draw people," assured Roger Gonnet, demolishing the arguments of the accused who, last week, downplayed its impact.

    Purification sessions: "There could have been deaths"

    The tribunal's attention then turned to the purification sessions. This is one of the first steps to take for a future "clear", a state recognized by Scientology, and consists of an intensive cocktail of sauna sessions, exercise, and vitamins -- sold exclusively by a Scientology dispensary. Recalling the case of one follower who was allergic to the required products, the former Scientology head, who has no medical training, admitted: "I was unaware of the risks I was making people take. There could have been deaths..." The presiding judge asked probing questions about the fees charged, "called 'donations' to provide a religious flavor", according to Gonnet.

    The electrometer: "A lifetime revenue stream"

    The next subject was the electrometer, the tool used to detect, by electrical variations, the mental state of a follower, which is sold for about 5,000 Euros and which "is worth twenty times less, but guarantees a lifetime revenue stream because, every two years, each Scientologist, who must own one, sends it in for 800 Euros of maintenance charges."

    Finally, on the remuneration of active members: "Their pay is calculated according to their results, which must improve continually. On occasion, some of the officials you see there (referring to Alain Rosenberg, current director of the Celebrity Center) do not report to the head office all the refund requests they receive, for a simple reason. For each refund, all active members are deprived of their salary for a certain period..."

    Seated one beside the other, the seven [sic] accused from time to time raise their eyes upward, burst out laughing, or express indignation. The testimony of this "apostate" has little value in their eyes. On Tuesday, more witnesses will be called, this time by the defense. About thirty are expected.
  39. Mutante Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    So if the stress test is banned in France but Scientology as a 'belief system' is not ... ?
  40. Ann O'Nymous Member

    Re: French trial: the media

    The ST is not at risk in this trial.

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