Freezone+ Anon

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by basic2basic, Jul 10, 2008.

  1. Asterix Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    In order to continue this train of thought you are going to have define something.

    What does WORK mean. Specifically with something substancial and that we can all agree and measure.

    I'm not debating new age shit or possibly good uses for scientology. I see how it operates today and if you all want to reform it and then pass it off to be peer reviewed. Good for you, I couldn't give a flying fuck.

    All I know is that LRH based tech is tainted at it's core, it is designed to control individuals, even if unintentionally (but that is the core design). I don't want to know about some unknown happy go lucky future. Scientology and it's derivatives today are fundamentally flawed because of the origin of design.

    I'm steering you back on track here.
  2. anonbrit Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    Samuel Hughes, I see what your attempting to do. It will not work, by trying to suggest that the cult is somehow age old knowledge the same as say Druidism will not work. Your space alien cult carries no further back then the 50's.

    Attempting to align the two world approaches is utter bullshit.
  3. Re: Freezone+ Anon

    I wasn't saying a religious system needs to make logical sense (it doesn't). I was saying the refurbishment process you describe in your post doesn't make sense because of the starting point. Do you know about dependant origination?
  4. Re: Freezone+ Anon

    That isn't what he's doing. He's attempting to articulate a viewpoint. chill.
  5. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    Sorry ... I'm just trying to say that a generalization does a disservice to the people covered by it.
  6. wat Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    Honestly, until this thread, I had no idea Free-Zoners existed. It's not as bad as the Org, but it sure isn't good either. By the way, even though Anonymous somewhat defends Psychiatry, I definitely think that the US is overmedicated. Maybe it's because Amerifags are sick fucks.

    Honestly, [STRIKE]if[/STRIKE] when Anonymous dismantles the Church of Scientology (lulz), what is the likelihood of Free-Zoners believing in the tech anymore?
    Knowing that Flat Earth Society actually exists (srsly), I'm kind of pessimistic about tech permantly leaving this universe.
  7. Re: Freezone+ Anon

    No religious system makes any sense. That's why it's a faith based religion. You aren't supposed to question. Your supposed to interpret, and find your own meaning based on faith within the doctrine.

    That's why Christianity is about your personal relationship with god. Not literal belief in the bibles stories.
  8. anonbrit Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    Hey, if I read his post wrong I have no problem going back and deleting that post. It seemed to me that he was trying to align the cult with ancient ways.
  9. Robert S Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    I agree. I have had that same experience at the hands of scientologists and freezoners when I start to look too closely at the tech. Suddenly I'm one of somebody else. So yeah - I get it now.

    But how much you want to bet terril never answers my questions about SPs?
  10. Re: Freezone+ Anon

    We agree on this.*

    Although the inner dialogue within a belief system may involve questions.

    *Actually some of them make a little bit of sense, especially the ones that encourage trans-rational thought or universal love.
  11. Robert S Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    My experience tells me if you suggest to a freezoner that his belief is "faith" (at which point I would have no argument myself and just walk away), you will have another fight on your hands.

    I can send you links where this has happened to me on countless occasions. That's just it. The inherent nature of scientology is absolutism. Faith has nothing to do with this. For a lot of these folks - it's axiomatic.
  12. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    Yeah, thanks. I'm not trying to play the "it's great stuff" card at all. But it's philosophy and psychology (in general, not meaning the profession).

    Hubbard's stuff (crap or gold or more likely in between) is no different than anyone else's contribution to any field. Old ideas given new facades and applied in new ways.

    It doesn't mean it's good or bad, doesn't mean it works or not, but it does present another viewpoint that people can work with to develop something of value somewhere down the road.

    As for "works", I admit severe subjectivity, but many pet therapies do work of multitudes of people, bettering their psycho-emotional state. The crime is when it hides from scrutiny and turns into a cure-all sold as an alternative to an evil outside world without solutions. That's a cult.

    But modern cults have delved into some areas of 'belief management' and hypnotherapy farther than had been done before. they take it to extremes that are sometimes harmful, sometimes helpful I think. We are also learning about how people are influenced and even coerced. It doesn't make it right, but does shed light on how the mind works.

    Am I back on track?
  13. Re: Freezone+ Anon

    But the difference is the answers are what you make of them. Not in the doctrine. Not what someone tells you are "answers". Everyone's answer is different based on their personal outlook in life.

    Don't bash someone simply because they disagree with your viewpoint.
  14. wat Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    When I first heard of it, I thought Scientology was modern Science with a spiritual aspect to it. I considered joining it when I was still a Protestant. However, after reading the Torah in 3 translations, as well as some other books, I just gave up faith altogether and became agnostic.

    There's not much more we can do with religion than we can do without it.
  15. Silent Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    Do Not Want Thought Free Zone. Here is a simple equation:

    FZ = belief in what L RAN HUBBURD wrote and said and did.
    what L RAN HUBBURD wrote and said and did = BULLSHIT.

  16. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    "My" space alien cult? I don't recall ever having been involved in Scientology or the FreeZone, except in research.

    And by research, I'm not counting the whole lifetime I spent studying world religions, so I'm happy to clarify what I mean with examples.

    EVERYTHING is age-old knowledge. There is nothing new under the sun, just new understandings of things. Scientology is IMO a poor man's Freudian psychotherapy developed in a different direction. Hubbard's mythos is vaguely reminiscent of eastern mysticism, and his dynamics are borrowed from Hindu metaphysics related to Chakra theory.

    Not sure why you mentioned it, but (Neo)Druidism is a modern recreation of a religion we know almost nothing about, filling in the gaps with at least as much fiction as Hubbard wrote by people who most likely knew less than historians. It's still a religion to some, and it's cool and all that, and not a cult as far as everything I've seen, but I have no illusions about anyone's faith when it comes to historical context. No offense meant to anyone BTW.

    If Scientology wasn't founded in the surrounding culture's existing concepts and archetypes, etc, it would not be easily accepted. Even something that could be said to be very different (i.e. original) has to have some cultural familiarity, even if almost subliminal.
  17. anonbrit Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    In the same vein we cannot dismiss when someone tries to hide something under the guise of something else.
  18. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    Your POV is very sensible. But some people work with what they are albe to accept. And there is also the viewpoint that there is not necessarily an unsurmountable dependent origination (if I am using the term correctly) ...

    The idea that engrams don't exist does not negate a system of dealing with them as a useful concept for example.
  19. Re: Freezone+ Anon

  20. Samuel Hughes Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    No. I would be offended at the idea as well, since it's insinuated falsely at times by Scientologists as some point of credibility that I do not see either.
  21. Re: Freezone+ Anon

  22. Robert S Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

  23. Re: Freezone+ Anon

  24. Re: Freezone+ Anon

    it is in the case of the Chruch of Scientology... and to some extent some FreeZoner groups. Just don't generalize between all groups that prescribe to LRH's belief system. Not all organized groups are created equal, and this more so an issue with neo Gnostic groups based on "applied" social mechanics presented by Scientology and the tech. The doctrine it self requests that you "force" it on others. That's apart of it's flaws... and why some groups refuse to do fully practice what LRH prescribed for social peace and prosperity... mind control and self hypnosis. It's the difference between the tone scale and the dynamics from my viewpoint.
  25. Re: Freezone+ Anon

  26. anonymusicz Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    That's not what he was saying.
  27. Re: Freezone+ Anon


    Lets see...

    LRH wrote that Dianetics first came to him after a near death experience upon which he "went to the other side" and was given "secret knowledge" This was later described by the Free Zoners as being from Akashic Record or Deus Ex Mechanica, Hand of God, etc. (Insert whatever other name you want to call it) as the gentleman who wrote "Excalibur Revise" apparently went there also and obtained the same knowledge. (Hint: EXR is their core OT book) This would dictate that the writing of Dianetics came from "endowed" secret knowledge brought to us by LRH. Those to prescribe to Scientology and the study of Dianetics would then be interpreting written knowledge, secret "truths". Wouldn't that make them a knowledge based belief system? A neo gnostic belief system?

    My thoughts:

    FreeZoners = Faith based belief system

    Church of Scientology = Knowledge based belief system

    It's all very similar to the start of Christianity... except the FreeZoners haven't killed all the Scientologists yet. (which is exactly what happened to the old Christian gnostics) Subsequently, Judas was the greatest of all recorded Gnostics.
  28. anonymusicz Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    He speaks truth. Us pagans know that Gardner made up a lot of stuff along the way :) We deal with it.
  29. anonbrit Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    You perhaps anonymusicz but us Picts know our stuff.
  30. anonymusicz Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    But it does negate the idea that the "tech" is a science. Science has to be built upon precepts that have been proven (or can not at this time be disproven :) ) and that's what the "tech" is pandered as. Not as a religion.

    This is the major flaw I see in FZ and Co$. It is sold as "it works, we can haz science too".
  31. basic2basic Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    Hey, I'll be there tomorrow also.

    There has been much opposition to the FZ from many critics over the years.. They have not posted any docs of FZ abuse.

    The COS with all their resources have tried over the years and come up with ....basically nonsense. See their anti FZ equivalent of " Religious freedon Watch"

    Free Zone Survivors Association

    Here from that website is my favorite account of abuse....:)

    "There was selling of books, materials, courses without any documents or receipts – the money was just put in the pockets. This also means that there no taxes were paid on this money. Just imagine the condition of the person who bit by bit collects money from his “student salary” and, as a result, he has no confirmation at all that he gave the money and nobody is responsible for this. In other words, because of this money these people destroyed his human rights. To rehabilitate these rights the money for the bad services should be paid back to him. "
  32. Re: Freezone+ Anon

    You've got to get over one of the key systems of "Scientology". They repurpose words.

    "Tech" and "Technology" = Technique

    "Based on Science" = Based on LRH's limited study of Science in the 30's, 40's and ripping off a couple of authors of social mechanics from the 1800's.
  33. anonymusicz Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    So, you know what? I can get into quite the debate on "The Old Religion" but that is for another thread :p

    PS A thread is brewing right now about Hubtard and the Occult. The hive thinks in mysterious ways...
  34. Re: Freezone+ Anon

  35. Re: Freezone+ Anon

    That doesn't sound like scientology? Replace "soul" with "Thetan" and "Jesus of Nazareth" with "LRH".

    Gnosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Even creepier here's the symbol for them:

    Remind you of:
  36. goldenrodanon Member

    Re: Freezone+ Anon

    Dianetics really doesn't fit in the sequence in some ways. It's not much like the rest of Scientology, and was intentionally kept separate from Scientology earlier on. It deals with mind, where Scientology deals with spirit and spiritual.

    So knowing that Excalibur was written in 38, and that LRH was working in Magick in the 40's, and wrote Dianetics in 50, and went into what became Scientology in 51, and then founded the church in 54, and then reworking Dianetics in 63, and writing OT3 in 67, and reworking Dianetics again in 69, and again in 78.

    Dianetics and Scientology were separate subjects in hubbards mind. He wrote enough to distinguish between them, for that to be a certainty.

    So I don't see a direct line between the Near Death Experience/Excalibur, and Dianetics.
  37. Re: Freezone+ Anon

    Shit, you're so convincing I'm gonna go sign up:)

    But seriously, I now see that you understand what you are talking about and I'm suprised you didn't bring up Jung. But I guess my point to you is, aren't you better off with the Baghavad Gita?
  38. Re: Freezone+ Anon

    But that's it. That's the difference. The CoS is the litteral belief in every word LRH wrote, understanding it in a very literal standpoint in a very focused ideal. FZ is a the belieif in the general concept, that varied depending upon why type of FZ you are.


    Edit: I have 3 confirmations that there is a chapter in Excalibur about Dianetics, making it the first published work on it. Making it the source of Dianetics. So... I don't see how you can't understand why the two are connected.
  39. Re: Freezone+ Anon

  40. Re: Freezone+ Anon

    Wrong. It isn't. I am a pure form Catholic and I study religion as a hobby. Gnostics were elitist and poisoned by Judas's idiocy. There is nothing pure about the need for a religion. It's a crutch made for man to explain the unexplained. Gnostic belief is the ultimate in "explanations" without real facts to back it up. It's science without the mechanics of science.

    Faith gives hope. Knowledge based religion just leads to... I dunno. So far death and depression if we look at past experiences and written history.

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