Re: Freezone+ Anon Freezoners practice Auditing. Auditing is, at best, unlicensed psychotherapy---at worst, it is incredibly dangerous mental manipulation. The people who practice auditing are "trained" and "certified" in "auditing" under their own auspices, with no professional peer review or ethical oversight and they are messing around in people's PSYCHE....using methodologies based on checklists and definitions from a madman, and improved through GUESSWORK. Bottom line is--no matter whether it's Scientology, or Freezone--no matter whether intentions are good or bad: NO ONE has any business subjecting people to auditing It doesn't matter if you think it MIGHT help somebody--IMO it's unethical and irresponsible to keep persisting with it no matter who you are....
Re: Freezone+ Anon No, that wasn't my point at all. Sorry if I've not been making it very clearly. My point was that the fact that something can't be seen isn't a good argument against it, science makes use of all sorts of things on a conceptual level. Thomas Szass (of CCHR fame) uses that sort of argument against illnesses like ADD. He says that they aren't real because you can't physically measure them. I think he's wrong because ADD is just a useful label for a set of symptoms and a possible way of treating it, as is the name of any other disease. So, what I'm saying is that saying that "you can't see engrams" isn't the same thing as saying that "engrams are a useless concept". The second is the argument that I see as the right one. ETA: Yeah I know I'm dumb and I didn't know that $cis reckon you can physically measure engrams, but I wouldn't be surprised if they try the "they're no less real than phobias" line.
Re: Freezone+ Anon Okay you got me there. I'll go back to pretending to be straight in the hope it makes my films sell better
Re: Freezone+ Anon Just to add to FearsomeMoggy's points here, and certainly something many on this forum are guilty of, but don't use the word 'proof' when you are talking about science. 'Proof' is not a concept in science. Science is entirely concerned with disproving things. Don't bother asking for 'proof' - ask for 'evidence'. tl;dr protip: Asking for 'proof' within the context of science makes you look like a scientific illiterate.
Re: Freezone+ Anon Although (to go even more geeky and off-topic) you can often prove things to be true in maths. Admittedly a lot of the time that's just because you disprove the opposite of the statement, but scientific proofs do exist in maths. Of course you can't prove that reality ever exactly fits the mathemtical model, but hey, to a mathematician that's reality's fault.
Re: Freezone+ Anon ^this, with the addition of "unlicensed psychcobabble practice of psychology, psychiatry, and clinical social work." If they want to use methods of these professions, let them go get seriously trained in how NOT to hurt people, and vetted by educators who will weed out the mentally / emotionally unstable in the process. Unstable people have no business mucking about in people's minds as a way to earn money. Also regarding the phrase: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." WRONG "The enemy of my enemy, is the enemy of my enemy." THAT'S ALL, nothing more. Don't just assume that because goals correspond, that this makes the "enemy of your enemy" anything more than your "future enemy" trying to weaken what's held them back from succeeding in their own agenda all these years. To be frank, and yes this is without having ever in my life met a FZ'er, I distrust anyone who has ever had more than a passing contact with $cientology, especially people who participated fully then left but kept this completely faulty belief set. To go through what people in Co$ go through and then to find any value beyond scrap in this bucket of bolts, displays aspects of character and thought processes that I can neither understand nor support.
Re: Freezone+ Anon <derail> CRINGE. Bell's theorem/statistical mechanics/<insert any such example here> are NOT scientific proofs. They are proven mathematically within their respective axiometrically founded systems but not in reality - thus they are not scientific proofs. </derail> Back on topic with a question - does anyone here think it is possible to do extensive auditing sessions regularly and NOT get mindfucked? And why?
Re: Freezone+ Anon <derail> No, I was talking more about actual mathematical proofs. Hence why I said that you can't prove that reality fits the model. Being a mathematician originally before going over to computer science, it's always infuriated me when people say that it's not possible to prove things in science. Pure maths is (arguably) still a science. </derail>
Re: Freezone+ Anon no. the whole purpose of the communication classes (TR's) is to get a persons brain f'ked to there are more apt to suggestion.
Re: Freezone+ Anon THIS. From my "comm" with the FZ, I have found that they interpret Hubbard VERY differently than the CoS, or perhaps very different from his actual intentions. Think of this possibility: King Arthur was worse than Caligula, and used the charlatanism of nobility to woo the masses, while killing the innocents. Centuries later, his propaganda machine won out in the end, and the tyranny was forgotten. Today, we look to his fictional acts of bravery and chivalry as an example of how to live. What I am saying is this: Even in the worst case scenario perspective of them worshipping the anti-christ beyond all Godwin's law comparisons, they are attempting to live up to the ideal they thought they were being sold. How terrible is that? It probably wouldn't be even the 9000th time in religion (or politics or whatever) that has happened. I for one can agree to disagree about the value of Hubbard and his 'tech' without disrespecting their efforts to use something as ethically and positively as they can. And if they can respectfully understand our beef is with the evil acts not beliefs, then we're all good. Anything else is just a pissing contest. And if they want to claim it as a religion, the Jedi still outnumber them on the census, and both are just as welcome to their way of dealing with life.
Re: Freezone+ Anon I do not agree with the above from my experience. However, the FreeZone is as varied as Anonymous. The above is like saying that Anonymous hacks websites, when in fact, most of us have no interest in such things. Is it true? Depends who you talk to. The generalization is way off I think.
Re: Freezone+ Anon Why does OP always cause drama? why? Just go away. /end baw WE HAVE A FUCKING PROTEST TO DO WE DON'T NEED THIS SHIT.
Re: Freezone+ Anon I'm only talking to Terril in this thread it's why I asked how he could be representing the "Freezone" since it's supposedly such a varied group of people. "They" want to protest the CoS for their own reasons that's fine. THe peddling of their snake oil...another matter.
Re: Freezone+ Anon Designed and used for are two different things. He created the religion as a scam, but people make it their belief system, hence it is a religion. (However, that doesn't make the CoS a religious ORGANIZATION.) He created the tech (IMO) as snake oil that may or may not work, and could be used to control people. That doesn't mean it hasn't evolved into beneficial counselling if done without pretense of miracle cures. But when you say the "tech" is brainwashing, I am telling you as someone who has studied the sociological and psychological phenomenon of cults for many years that only specific parts of the tech are blatantly conducive to coercion. Mostly it is the APPLICATION of the tech. Will suggestivity by itself brainwash you? Tell that to a hypnotherapist. The tech is a tool, and doesn't coerce people any more than guns kill people. If people want to be target shooters or hunters, that doesn't make them murderers. Will the tech lend itself to brainwashing? Absolutely ... if you use it for such a purpose. But no more than bible-beating (or Quran-beating, etc.) in any number of churches I can think of. That doesn't make scripture evil by its nature, does it?
Re: Freezone+ Anon Interesting...would you consider the suplanting of language to be a good tool or something to create isolationism. It's like the first thing all the Scientology variants do. Replace the definitions of common words and invent others which are only usuable when speaking to other scientologists. You think perhaps when you look at each of the "tech" portions that the intent is to basically put the subject into an isolated subjective state? Auditing is very interesting specially with the "comm" commands. The whole process is unwittingly abused even by those with "good intentions". The freezone should submit auditing for peer review and have those auditors be liscensed and insured. Then alot of my beefs kind of go away. The closests any religion comes to auditing is confessions and even that comparison is pretty faulty.
Re: Freezone+ Anon Just a reminder that Enturb is not to be used as a source of promotion/harvest for any religion
Re: Freezone+ Anon I'm going to play ref here because I know this shit down pat. I don't know the original conversation. But the above is a CONCRETE, SPECIFIC, DEFINITIVE EXAMPLE of cult mentality, the result of very intentional indoctrination. No one gets defensive this way unless they are mentally challenged, and by that I mean either closed minded by being a total ass or close-minded because they are brainwashed. The knee-jerk response to criticism as the other person's fault is the hallmark of someone who is brainwashed. Period. This is not defensible as normal or helpful psycho-emotionally, intellectually, or in any other realm of existence. You have to be coaxed into believing accusers are usually the ones who are hiding something by not analyzing the ridiculous (and dangerous) implications of that statement. And yes, Hubbard's 'scriptures' teach this mentality vehemently as 'wisdom' which is evidence of intentional brainwashing IMO. Does the FZ do this? That's like asking a Christian if Christians are offended by swearing. You can find examples for and against such an assumption, or point to scripture, but in real life we are dealing with real people, not theoretical conceptualizations of what is a "FreeZoner" or "Christian".
Re: Freezone+ Anon That's what happened when it "fell" in the 80s after Hubbard's death ... a bunch of groups started up, many hiding their Scientology roots. Perfect example: Harry Palmer (Avatar) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Re: Freezone+ Anon well said, and I will answer your question by explanation. You are talking about "Loading the Language" and yet carpenters, insurance agents, and scientists in various fields, (and on and on) have their own terminology without creating isolationist linguistics. The subjective reality framework is also as problematic as you suggest, but such a framework can be ad hoc or heavily indoctrinated at the expense of objectivity. it is again a matter of use. If the FZ are peddling snake oil, that doesn't make them a cult. If they are unwilling to accept peer review, THEN they are drifting toward being a cult. There is aversion by some FZers to accept outside confirmation and accountability - which is a MAJOR cult characteristic. But I get the impression many FZers would jump at the chance to do scientific studies if the opportunity is there, and have NO problem with licensing.
Re: Freezone+ Anon You havn't banned me or AFAIK considered me retarded. Here thats special in my book. Your comment " Let them come to you" is what I practice. I do more than anyone to promote the FZ on the net, just by letting people know its there. I don't "sell" to anyone. No, however in my recent travels through the US I was in Mountain View, a beautiful town. Met some friends from decades ago and some other wonderful old timers. One who told me KSW 1 is an implant. How I laughed in joy. I might be able to find out. Possibly you are correct. Mostly I think they are not interested in the political, for want of a better word, actions re COS. I am. FZers on the whole do not want to communicate with people who attack Tech as opposed to policy. They are gung ho on attacking COS and abuse. Seems this thread has generated much interest. I shall endeavor to comment usefully I hope.
Re: Freezone+ Anon There ARE FZers who are not homophobic. There are even Scientologists in the Orgs that are not. Many just see LRH as a product of his times, and let go of his rantings on various subjects as outdated. Seriously. As for SP Theory, the FZers do NOT use it as a label for anyone who disagrees or threatens their revenue stream (i.e. control over people's lives). Overall they inherited SOME of Hubbard's prejudices, phobias, and grudges ... that is a normal sociological tendency. But they are no longer BOUND by them, whereas in the CoS, the ultimately are ENFORCED. I hope this distinction makes sense, as it is quite important IMO.
Re: Freezone+ Anon You should have quit while you were ahead. I'm digging it - big time - up until the last paragraph if only because I have no idea what you're talking about there. Real life? Real people? Yeah... OK. lolwut?
Re: Freezone+ Anon I'm connected with more freezoners than anyone else I believe. I own the largest private FZ forum and am on just about all others. I have been promoting the freezone by posting success stories for 8 years. I have always tried to bring peace to the various freezone factions and individuals. A few years ago the thought of being a " freezone spokesman" would have been quite unpleasant! Its been a period of wonderful personal growth. I hesitantly started to speak up a long time ago. I still do. Not many of us are prepared to come to places like this and meet such opposition. No one has done as much as I in that respect. So here I am. Still standing, still speaking.
Re: Freezone+ Anon Is there such a thing as a suppressive person, and - if you feel there is - what differentiates your understanding of an SP from Hubbard's?
Re: Freezone+ Anon Incidentally, I use tarot cards on people sometimes. They love it and are amazed at the "results" and insights even though I am completely honest about the fact I am NOT reading the future or channeling spirits, blah blah blah. I use it as an artful framework to bring out people's perceptions and hopes, and present them with a creative way to think of things in their life in different ways, creating different possibilities. that's the short version explanation anyway. Does that make me a dangerous fraud? Similarly, I can see how clay work in Scientology could help people in some ways, giving substance to thought, using both halves of the brain, etc.. Really, we have a lot to learn from the new age religions, cults or not. Remember, they are expressions of earlier ideas (that worked) brought into new times, and have to have SOME value, even if it's undermined by intentions of coercion. If NOTHING in Dianetics worked, nobody would get far enough up the bridge to suspend rational thought and give them all their money, freedom, children, etc..
Re: Freezone+ Anon What you, and the rest of FZ need to understand is promotion of your religion is not acceptable here. we are ok discussing the tech, we are ok discussing scripture, LRH, whatever. but once you start trying to "lead" people to FZ you will be eaten alive. We also don't appreciate nor care who YOU are or how powerful YOU are. This is Enturb, a portal for Chanology where ex-members, freezoners, Anonymous and the general public discuss and plan protests against the church of scientology. Leave your ego and your snake oil at the door if you want to contribute.
Re: Freezone+ Anon It doesn't have to make sense. It just has to have meaning. Some people can rebuild a marriage gone bad and make it work; others are better off divorced, and are stronger for it without needing to get rid of the memories of good times. It's a personal decision after all.
Re: Freezone+ Anon There's no such thing as a bridge. Please shut up three posts ago. You were brilliant, now you're ruining it.
