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FBI Still Refuses To Release Unsealed Files

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by Andy Downs, May 31, 2013.

  1. Andy Downs Member

    FBI-FOIA Delay 4.JPG FBI-FOIA Delay 6.JPG FBI-FOIA Delay 4.JPG Son of slain pilot in the hijacking of 58November has been given by the Federal Court in Nashville Tennessee an Order Unsealing All Files on his father;s death. To date the FBI has still not released all the records and what they have released has been redacted.

    My name is Andy Downs and my father was killed 9 minutes after he landed his hijacked aircraft in Jacksonville Florida Oct 4, 1971. FBI agents opened fire on his plane causing the hijacker to freak out and ultimately killing everyone on the plane.

    The FBI had the records sealed on my father;s case and they remained sealed until I was able to get the court to order their release.

    My fight and my family;s fight continues for the complete record.
    You can see the Judge's order via the PDF file I have provided

    You can also see the redacted FBI Files I have been able to get at Archive dot org
    These files are pubic property and not just about my family;s personal loss. If you read them you will see what we have endured and why we don;t want it to happen to others.
    https://archive.org/details/1147076001164HQ2042Section1

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 2
  2. Anonymous Member

    Did you try writing to your rep in congress?
  3. Andy Downs Member

    Yes, I have hired an attorney now to help with the appeal process also. No response from my rep so far. Attorneys are so expensive but I am out of options short of massive public attention
  4. Andy Downs Member

    I started requesting files in 2008. The FOIA people claimed they did not get the first two I sent. They finally acknowledged my third request.
    I was able to get 5000 un-redacted pages by getting the case files moved to the Nashville Federal Courthouse in 2010. It was all printed on the old "Onion Paper" so it would not feed through a scanner. I had to take a camera and tripod and shoot a little over 5000 pages after the files were unsealed. Then I learned that the FBI had 7542 pages of records that were never disclosed during the trial. FOIA has sent me almost 6000 redacted pages to date. a little over 1500 remain. The missing records were originally ordered by the trial judge to be turned over to my mother;s attorneys. This never took place.
    So I have been fighting to get the complete record since that time.
    I WILL NOT QUIT until I get them all.
    • Like Like x 7
  5. The Internet Member

    I can only speculate why the FBI are not honoring your request. It may be that the documents have to be read by someone who can spot info that must be redacted to protect innocent parties or matters of national security, and the readers are backlogged. But we're talking about an event from 40 years ago, so most of the people involved would be retired or dead at this point.

    It's good you now have an attorney helping you. The Federal government is a complex bureaucracy bound by procedures that aren't always obvious.

    Maybe if a few people write to your rep about the matter that will raise the priority level. Anyone of the same political party who has donated to the rep's campaign would be plus. Just have them say that per Mr. Sobonya's February email, everyone is expecting the documents to be released in August, and given how lengthy all the delays to date, further delays would really be hard for the family to bear.
    • Like Like x 2
  6. This is why.
    hackFBI
    This message by hackFBI has been hidden due to negative ratings. (Show message)
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  7. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    FIFY.

    WWP does NOT illegally hack or do illegal actions.
    • Like Like x 3
  8. Andy Downs Member

    I don't want anyone to do anything illegal at all. That is why I hired an attorney. Additionally, no one could hack this stuff anyway. These are records that are still in paper forms. They are in files boxes so I don't think hacking will do much

    • Like Like x 2
  9. Andy Downs Member

    I am unsure how this board works. If you reply to one specific comment, will it go to the rest of the members watching this thread? So this is why I am going to repeat this post reply.

    I do not want anyone to do anything illegal on my project. It is for that reason and others that I have hired an attorney to go through the appeal process with FOIA. This will probably end up in court to get them to comply.

    I am putting this information out there, because it is all information that should be available to every citizen, not just me. It is also to show that only the FBI can come up with a position where if you do not finish your job at work, you get an extra 6 months to finish your work. One final note on the email pics I posted, no one believes me, until they see the emails, that the FBI not only gave me this response in writing allowing themselves an additional 6 months because they did not meet their own deadline.

    I will try the letter writing campaign to my representatives. Any other suggestions are welcomed.
  10. The Internet Member

    I think you are doing it right, Andy. You want to be a squeaky wheel but a likeable squeaky wheel.

    Like you I'd find this form letter upsetting. But I can't really judge the people responsible for getting the work done. Could be agency resources are mis-managed, due to idiot managers. They seem to be everywhere these days.

    I've found the "imagine yourself in my shoes" argument helpful when talking to basically nice people. Also witnesses. People don't like to seem uncaring when several people are watching.

    Below is an example of another person getting impatient with the FBI. But was he doing it right? Lol, no.

    https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/barrett-brown-threats-to-fbi-raid-by-fbi.105089/#post-2183688
    • Like Like x 1
  11. The Internet Member

    Hey Andy I checked your link.
    Wow Mark Felt...wasn't he Deep Throat?
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Anonymous Member

    Yep!
    Of note, this was right at the time when mastodons and Richard Nixon roamed the earth.

    I seem to recall John Mitchell going down on a Watergate Break-In conviction - obstructing justice? Can't be certain of the charges, but there was a prosecution for something or other.
  13. Andy Downs Member

    Yes that was Deep Throat...This case was handled by the highest levels. Hoover personally approved exhibits for trial before they went to the US Attorney office. Deep Throat was in charge of trying to handle the press and public out cry
  14. The Internet Member

    So the hijacker, George Giffe, claimed to be CIA and flashed a badge and ID that looked sufficiently legit to convince the pilot and co-pilot he was CIA, apparently. But the agency denied knowing him after Mr. Giffe shot the pilot, his wife, and himself. Then J Edgar Hoover and Mark Felt are on the case. Hmm...

    The chartered plane was owned by Big Brother Aircraft, Inc. This is like some kind of weird Men Who Stare at Goats type joke.
  15. Andy Downs Member

    It gets really bizarre. And Yes Mitchel was convicted for Watergate.
    The surviving hijacker, Bobby Wayne Wallace, applied and passed the entrance exam for the Nashville Metro Police Department in between the time he was arrested in Jacksonville and before his criminal trial for air piracy. He passed his exam to be a cop. Then he was acquitted. He took a job with the Tennessee Department of Labor after he was acquitted for air piracy.
    Wallace was never placed under surveillance during this time by the FBI. Yet my mother was.
  16. Andy Downs Member

    The FBI used South Central Bell employees to monitor my mother's call and when she would leave Nashville to go to her grandmother's house in East Tennessee. She received calls for the first couple of years at night telling her that her husband was dead and not coming home and she would not beat the FBI so give up on the law suit.
    I was floored when I found the FBI Teletype describing how they used the phone company.
    The FBI also had a newspaper reporter working for them as well. This reporter would come and try and interview my mother and then meet with the FBI in Nashville to report. I was amazed the FBI actually kept records on both these items in official teletypes.
  17. Andy Downs Member

    JAX - Hoover A 1 copy.jpg
    JAX - Hoover A 2 copy.jpg

    These commendations were ordered by j Edgar Hoover to the FBI Agents in Jacksonville for opening fire on my dad's plane. Hoover ordered these awards before they even got my father;s body off the plane in Jacksonville
    So everyone is up to speed, 9 minutes after my dad stopped his plane in Jacksonville Florida FBI agents opened fire on his plane. The hijacker then freaked out and killed everyone left on the plane. My father had been able to get his co-pilot off the plane before the shooting started to try and talk with the FBI. The second hijacker followed the co-pilot. That is how Bobby Wayne Wallace survived and went to work for the State of Tennessee.
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Paroxetine Samurai Moderator

    I wasn't accusing or suggesting that you were wanting illegal activities OP. I was referring to the guest poster who had such a "clever" name.Kind of my deal to browbeat those who want to do illegal stuff... 'tis one of my sick pleasures.

    I do commend you though for wanting to do things on the level and through legal methods. I wish you best of luck in your fight and if I come across some way to help, I'll float it your way.
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Anonymous Member

    When you started this thread Mr. Downs I was gonna say, "NYPA," which means, "not your personal army," which is what we always tell random people coming here asking for help. But you produced dox. Then I Googled and found even more dox. I now think your story is important. But I only speak for myself.

    When the protests against Scientology in Feb '08 became a Big Deal, no one was more surprised than Anonymous, which is mostly useless faggots looking at p0rns all day. People seem to think the iconic Guy Fawkes mask represents that cool guy in V for Vendetta. But it's really Epic Fail Guy, a meme you can Google. Long story short: keep your expectations low. Anonymous is what it is.

    Right now, you got one person intrigued by your story from the cowboy days of US intelligence.

    George Giffe's last words to his father, written in a letter: "I have lived before. I shall live again." Makes him sound a bit moonbatty, don't you think?
  20. OTeleventy Member

    Mr. Downs, thank you for posting this here. I will be watching with interest. I did not know your story before.

    Having some experience with FOIA requests myself, I know it can certainly be frustrating. I have learned that patience pays off SOMETIMES, and other times it takes a lawsuit. That of course can be costly.

    I am most interested in seeing 58 November. Any ETA?
    • Like Like x 1
  21. Andy Downs Member

    I am not counting on others for my own success for this project. I think this is information that should be known. In my opinion you can't change things unless you know how they got screwed up to begin with. My family's story and battle with the FBI shows a great deal of information of how the current culture of surveillance, hiding bad acts, and a general attitude of "if we did it, it is good" by our government
    If people would like to help me research names, find info, etc I would be grateful. If not my life still goes on as do my efforts.

    Hoover counter-sued my mother for 2.5 million after she filed her wrongful death action. The reasons included:
    1. My father took off out of Nashville without a takeoff clearance
    2. My father served alcohol on the plane
    3. My father failed to disarm passengers prior to boarding
    This counter claim was not dismissed under summary judgement and the judge L. Clure Morton allowed evidence and testimony.
    That was just a blatant attempt to bully a citizen who was standing up for her rights. This culture still exists today in many forms. Today's culture of intimidation started with the FBI and Hoover. My story shows where this stuff began. Many of the FBI agents who testified at the Church-Pike Senate Hearings were the men who were in charge of the tactics in my dad's case.

    George Giffe was nuts. What I have been able to learn is that the FBI had several complaints about Giffe and they interviewed him on at least one occasion. prior to the hijacking. He had been medically discharged for mental reasons in the late 50's from the National Guard. In those days the only way you could get out of service was being gay. He contracted malaria while on duty in Louisiana and it was probably not treated correctly. Malaria eats at brain cells if not controlled and causes many issues. No one did anything to intervene from the FBI or otherwise.

    This is not that different from the mass shootings of today where people knew someone had a problem but nothing was ever done.

    Additionally Agent James "Jim" O'Connor was the agent in charge at Jacksonville who ordered his agents to open fire on my dad's plane. After the hijacking he was not only given a commendation by Hoover, but was promoted to Special Agent in Charge of the Norfolk FBI Field Office.

    In my opinion the way this case was handled shows how our current law enforcement culture is trapped in old ways of thinking and in some cases corrupt. I think that matters. I think it is information that can be used to show the issues we are all concerned about today is really just the culmination of years of an unchecked culture that started with J Edgar Hoover.
    • Like Like x 3
  22. Andy Downs Member

    The ETA on the documentary depends on the money I can raise at this point. The broadcast business is set up now to be able to view finished products and pick from those projects. They don;t like getting into development.

    I have about half of the interviews shot now. I tried a IndieGoGo campaign a month or so ago. We got 76000 hits and raised only 4k.
    So I am starting a 501c3 non-profit to try and raise the remaining funds now. Any ideas on free donors are welcomed.

    I have applied to every foundation you can imagine for the last 2 years but no luck yet. To give you an idea the MacArthur Foundation had over 11,000 applicants and picked 8 for funding. And 58 November has an agreement with PBS to air nationwide in 60 million homes once we are finished.

    So I shoot when I can get money together and just keep going until I get there. I WILL NOT QUIT and THIS FILM WILL BE MADE.
    Again any ideas are welcomed and would be appreciated. I have located FBI agents who were involved in the case who are between the ages of 72 and 93 years old. So time is not on my side with some of these guys.
    • Like Like x 2
  23. Andy Downs Member

    These are the transcripts of the Air Traffic Control communications between my father (Captain of 58November), ATC and the FBI

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 1
  24. Anonymous Member

    JACKSONVILLE TAPES
    On 4 October 1971 I hereby certify that the following is a true re-recording of a recorded conversation pertaining to subject incident taken from the Jacksonville Center reel No. 131, track No. 16. My name is Carl R. Hashen, ATCS, Jacksonville Air Route Traffic Control Center, Hilliard, Florida.
    0825.35
    Pilot: Jacksonville Center, 9058 November, one seven thousand.
    ATC: Commander 9058 November, Jacksonville Center, one seven thousand, ident.
    P: Got it.
    ATC: Commander, 58 November, the Alma altimeter missing, the Jacksonville altimeter 29.98.
    P: Niner niner eight.
    0826.00
    0826.20
    P: Jacksonville Center, 58 November, could you tell me what your weather is there at the airport, please?
    ATC: Standby one, 58 November. I’ll check on the latest weather.
    0826.40
    0828.10
    ATC: Commander 58 November. The Jacksonville weather.
    P: All right, sir, go ahead.
    ATC: This is a special observation. Clear visibility at 5 and ground fog and smoke. Runway visual range for Runway 7 was 4,000 feet and they have a one point temperature dew point spread now.
    P: All right, sir. Would it too much trouble to find out what the spread was last hour so I can have some idea what the trend’s going to be?
    ATC: Roger. It’s been that way for at least three or four hours now. They’ve had a one point spread. It’s held five miles visibility.
    P: OK. Very good. Thank you.
    0829.00
    0836.55
    P: Jax Center, 58 November.
    2
    ATC: 58 November, go ahead.
    P: All right, sir we’ve got kind of unusual situation here, uh—uh, we’re going to need some fuel at Jackson and , uh, we can’t have anybody around except the fuel truck and the man fueling. Uh, nobody else in the area. We will need flotation hear and, uh, if there’s anyway possible I need some charts and approach plates for Freeport. Yeah, we need jet fuel. And if you can’t, wish you could work out some kind of flight plan—vector us to Freeport, and we need to make sure that there is nobody, and I emphasize that, nobody around the airplane except the fuel truck and the attendant.
    ATC: 58 November, Jacksonville copied it all, copied it all.
    P: All right. We need flotation geat. This is a, uh, this is an eight place airplane. Just make flotation hear for that will be sufficient.
    ATC: 58 November. Wilco. Wilco.
    P: Call me back on that if you can and let me know if there is going to be any delays at all in the fuel truck waiting on us when we get there.
    ATC: 58 November. Everything will be ready. Everything will be ready as specified.
    P: All right and , uh, all right, they say to clear the area for at least 200-300 yards around the airplane and make sure there is nobody around it.
    ATC: 58 November. Copied. Copied.
    P: Thank you, sir.
    0839.00
    0840.10
    P: Center, have another unusual request. Uh, two bottles of Scotch.
    ATC: 58 November. Understand.
    P: Chevas 12 if you can get it. And also on that routing I would prefer to stay over land as much as possible until we make the direct entry to Freeport there and if you could give me the mileage since I don’t have the charts I would appreciate that so I can kind of figure some fuel here.
    ATC: 58 November. Will work on that and advise.
    0840.55
    0842.15
    ATC: 58 November. The mileage to Freeport’s 320 nautical miles; that’s taking you over Palm Beach and then direct Freeport.
  25. Anonymous Member

    3
    P: OK. 320 nautical miles?
    ATC: That is correct.
    P: OK. And I hope you did get that, we will need some charts then. Could you get the weather out that way?
    ATC: Affirmative. I’ll get the weather now.
    P: Roger.
    0842.45
    0843.00
    P: Center, 58 November. We’d like an APU for a restart after we get there at Jacksonville.
    ATC: 58 November. Copy, APU.
    P: Roger.
    0843.15
    0844.00
    ATC: Commander, 9058 November. Descend at pilot’s discretion to maintain 5,000. Jacksonville altimeter, 29.98
    P: OK. 29.98. And at our discretion down to 5,000.
    0844.15
    0845.25
    P: 58 November. We’re out of one seven for 5,000.
    ATC: 58 November.
    0845.40
    0850.00
    ATC: Delta 592, say altitude.
    Delta: We’re out of eleven three.
    ATC: 9058 November, say altitude.
    P: Out of one four thousand.
    4
    ATC: Roger.
    0850.20
    0851.05
    P: 58 November. Are ou showing traffic at about our 12, about 11:30 position?
    ATC: Affirmative. About eleven o’clock and 10 miles, northwest bound. He’ll pass five miles off to your left. It’s a Delta jet climbing.
    P: OK. We’ve got him. He’s got his light on.
    0851.25
    ATC: Delta 592. Traffic (faded on tape)
    Delta: Yeah, I got him, too.
    0851.40
    0851.45
    P: You want to trade places, Delta?
    Delta: You going home?
    P: Negative.
    Delta: We’ve got aobut seven more hours to go—yeah, we’ll trade. (Pause) We’ve got all those milkcans (fade)
    P: Say again?
    Delta: We’ve got to deliver all those milk cans.
    P: Yeah.
    0852.15
    0852.50
    ATC: 9058 November, contact Jacksonville approach control, 118.0.
    P: All right, sir. 118.0
    0853.00
    End of re-recording (Carl Hashen)
    The following is a re-recording of a re-recording of radar hand-off between the Atlanta Center and the Jacksonville Center reference 9058 November 4 October 1971.
  26. Anonymous Member

    0823.00
    Atl: 10 northwest of Vienna, squawking 3100, Aero Commander 9058 November one seven thousand.
    Jax: Radar contact.
    Atl: His ETA that he gave us for Jacksonville was 0915 Z.
    Jax. OK. Thank you.
    Atl: Fuel until 11:28 Z.
    Jax: Fuel until 11:20?
    Atl: 11:28 Z.
    Jax: 28. (Pause) OK. Thank you.
    0823.25
    JACKSONVILLE TOWER TRACON TAPES
    0852.00
    Tower: Go ahead. (Pause) 58 November is radar. (Pause) Yes? Go ahead.
    Pilot: Jacksonville approach. Commander 9058 November is with you out of eleven for, I think it’s five.
    T: Commander 58 November, Jacksonville approach control. You are radar contact. You are landing at the International. Is that correct?
    P: That is affirmative.
    T: What’s your compass heading, sir?
    P: One three O.
    T: Commander 58 November. Roger. Come on a heading of 150 for a vector to the final approach course for an ILS approach to Runway 7. Maintain five.
    P: OK> Heading 150 and maintain five. We’re out of eleven. What kind of visibility you got down there now?
    T: The building visibility is five with ground fog and smoke. The runway visual range is more than 6,000 feet.
    P: 58 November. Roger (Pause) Has our request been complied with?
    T: We’re checking on it for you right now, sir. (Pause) We’ve been advised by Aircraft Services that they’re trying to, attempting to get your request completed.
    P: Thank you.
    0854.55
    T: I have a request on your Freeport weather. Are you ready to copy?
    P: Yeah. Go ahead.
    T: OK. They’re reporting at the last observation 1,500 scattered, visibility ten. 29.95 the altimeter, cumulus south. The wind is 040 degrees at four.
    P: OK. That was 1500 scattered, 10 miles.
    T: Commander 58 November. That’s correct, sir.
    P: Thank you.
    T: Commander 58 November. Descend and maintain 2,000.
    2
    P: OK. We’re out of nine for two.
    T: Jacksonville altimeter, sir, is now 29.97.
    P: Two niner niner seven.
    (Pause)
  27. Anonymous Member

    0823.00
    Atl: 10 northwest of Vienna, squawking 3100, Aero Commander 9058 November one seven thousand.
    Jax: Radar contact.
    Atl: His ETA that he gave us for Jacksonville was 0915 Z.
    Jax. OK. Thank you.
    Atl: Fuel until 11:28 Z.
    Jax: Fuel until 11:20?
    Atl: 11:28 Z.
    Jax: 28. (Pause) OK. Thank you.
    0823.25
    JACKSONVILLE TOWER TRACON TAPES
    0852.00
    Tower: Go ahead. (Pause) 58 November is radar. (Pause) Yes? Go ahead.
    Pilot: Jacksonville approach. Commander 9058 November is with you out of eleven for, I think it’s five.
    T: Commander 58 November, Jacksonville approach control. You are radar contact. You are landing at the International. Is that correct?
    P: That is affirmative.
    T: What’s your compass heading, sir?
    P: One three O.
    T: Commander 58 November. Roger. Come on a heading of 150 for a vector to the final approach course for an ILS approach to Runway 7. Maintain five.
    P: OK> Heading 150 and maintain five. We’re out of eleven. What kind of visibility you got down there now?
    T: The building visibility is five with ground fog and smoke. The runway visual range is more than 6,000 feet.
    P: 58 November. Roger (Pause) Has our request been complied with?
    T: We’re checking on it for you right now, sir. (Pause) We’ve been advised by Aircraft Services that they’re trying to, attempting to get your request completed.
    P: Thank you.
    0854.55
    T: I have a request on your Freeport weather. Are you ready to copy?
    P: Yeah. Go ahead.
    T: OK. They’re reporting at the last observation 1,500 scattered, visibility ten. 29.95 the altimeter, cumulus south. The wind is 040 degrees at four.
    P: OK. That was 1500 scattered, 10 miles.
    T: Commander 58 November. That’s correct, sir.
    P: Thank you.
    T: Commander 58 November. Descend and maintain 2,000.
    2
    P: OK. We’re out of nine for two.
    T: Jacksonville altimeter, sir, is now 29.97.
    P: Two niner niner seven.
    (Pause)
  28. Andy Downs Member

    In 2008 when I first contacted the National Archives in Atlanta, they told me they had all the files. The lady who I spoke to also said that the files were unusual in the sense that after 20-25 years files are automatically unsealed to the general archives. She went on to say that there was no notation in the files to ever have them unsealed. I was lucky in the fact that one of my mother's attorneys vs the FBI is now a federal judge. He was able to help me get the files unsealed.
    This allowed me to copy all the files in the civil file dockets.
    However, my ability to get the files the FBI has in their records have been the challenge. They have fought me on every turn since they were sent the order from the Middle Tennessee District Federal Court.
    These are the cache of files that were never disclosed during the trial that were ordered by the trial judge to be turned over in 1972. So perhaps they are worried about the information they kept from the court in this case....but that is just speculation.
  29. Anonymous Member

    T: Commander 58 November. Turn right heading 180.
    P: 180. 58 November.
    (Pause)
    T: Commander 58 November. Continue descent to maintain 1,600.
    P: OK> We’re down to 1,600. 58 November. (Pause) We’re out of 5500. 58 November. Was that down to 1,500?
    T: Commander 58 November . 1,600, sir.
    P: OK. 1,600.
    T: Aero Commander 58 November. Turn left heading 130, six miles from outer compass locater.
    P: One three O, 58 November. (Pause) Y’all going to maintain clearance around the plane about 200-300 yards?
    T: That information has been forwarded.
    P: Roger.
    T: Commander 58 November. What is your altitude now?
    P: We’re out of 24.
    T: Roger.
    0902.20
    T: Commander 58 November. Turn left heading 100.
    P: One zero zero. 58 November.
    T: Continue left, sir, to zero eight zero to intercept localizer course; 4 miles from the marker. Cleared for a straight in ILS approach into Runway 7.
    P: OK. 080 to intercept. Clear for approach. You want us to stay on freq?
    3
    T: I’ll have frequency change here for you shortly.
    (Pause)
    T: Commander 58 November. You can remain this frequency. You’re clear to land Runway 7. You’re 2 and one-half miles from the marker now. Clear for the approach straight in.
    P: OK.
    T: The wind is variable at four.
    P: Right.
    (Pause)
    P: 58 November. We got the airport.
    T: Commander 58 November. Thank you.
    (Pause)
    T: Commander 58 November. Contact the tower now, 118.3., sir, and he’ll have taxi direction information for you when you land.
    P: Roger.
    P: 58 November. We’re outside the marker.
    T: Commander 9058 Normal, Jax. You’re cleared to land on straight Runway 7. The wind is 280 degrees at 3.
    P: Roger.
    (Pause)
    0905.20
  30. Anonymous Member

    P: 58 November. We’re on the ground. Have all our requests been complied with?
    T: Commander 58 November. You can taxi straight ahead to the second intersection, taxi straight-ahead on the runway.
    P: Straight ahead on the runway to the second intersection.
    T: That’s affirm. You’re ready to turn off on the second intersection.
    P: OK. Right turnoff.
    (Pause)
    4
    T: Commander 9058 November, right turn off at the next intersection and taxi across the parallel, straight into Air Kaman.
    P: OK. Straight into Air Kaman.
    P: Straight ahead right here.
    T: Straight ahead, Commander 9058.
    P: 58 November, I think it would be best if we parked somewhere close, out close to the edge. I don’t want to get in too close to those building.
    T: OK, sir, that’s what I had planned for you. Right straight ahead there to the end of the taxi strip. There’s a parking pad right at the end.
    P: Is the fuel truck here?
    T: You say is it a fuel truck?
    P: I say is the fuel truck here?
    T: Affirmative.
    T: Taxi straight ahead to the end, Commander 58 November, all the way to the end.
    P: Roger. 58 November.
    (Pause)
    P: Make a left turn here?
    T: Affirmative. You can park anywhere you like in that area. Slight left up to the blue lights.
    P: Say again.
    T: Slight left turn.
    P: OK. We’re going to turn it around and head back out.
    T: You want to park right there, 58 November, for fueling?
    P: That’d be fine.
    T: OK. That’s fine. Right there. Park right where you’re at.
    P: 58 November. They are going to keep this area clear. Is that correct.
    T: That’s affirmative.
    5
    P: All right. (Pause) What’s the car sitting back off to our right?
    T: It’s just an airport vehicle as far as I know, sir.
    P: Does he have a radio in it?
    T: Say again, 58 November.
    P: Can you have it moved away from over there, maybe have Air Kaman find someone?
    T: 58 November?
    P: Yes.
    T: 58 NOVEMBER. THIS IS THE FBI SPEAKING. CUT YOUR ENGINES.
    (Pause)
    P: 58 November. This is the captain speaking. We’re going to cut the engines and we’re gonna need some fuel but I request that everyone stay away.
    T: 58 NOVEMBER. ADVISE WHEN YOUR ENGINES HAVE BEEN CUT.
    T: 58 NOVEMBER?
    P: This is 58 November. Uh, this gentleman has about 12.5 pounds of plastic explosives back here, and (pause) uh, I got not (pause) uh, yen to join it right now so I would please expr, uh, appreciate it if you would stay away from this airplane.
    T: THAT’S A ROGER, 58 NOVEMBER. ARE YOUR ENGINES CUT?
    P: Negative.
    T: STANDBY.
    P: Where’s the fuel truck?
    (Pause)
    T: 58 NOVEMBER?
    P: 58 November. Go ahead.
    T: THIS IS THE FBI. THERE WILL BE NO FUEL. REPEAT. THERE WILL BE NO FUEL. THERE WILL BE NO STARTER. HAVE YOU CUT YOUR ENGINES?
    (Pause)
  31. Anonymous Member

    Uh (gasp), look, I don’t think this fellow’s kiddin’—I wish you’d get the fuel truck out here.
    T: 58 NOVEMBER. THERE WILL BE NO FUEL. I REPEAT. THERE WILL BE NO FUEL.
    P: This is 58 November. You are endangering lives by doing this, and uh, we have not other choice but to go along, and uh, uh, for the sake of some lives we request some fuel out here, please.
    T: 58 NOVEMBER. WHAT IS THE STATUS OF YOUR PASSENGERS?
    P: Ah, uh, well, they’re okay, if that’s what you mean.
    T: ARE THEY MONITORING THIS CONVERSATION?
    P: Yes, they are.
    T: DO YOU HAVE TWO PASSENGERS ABOARD?
    (Pause)
    T: \58 NOVEMBER. WHAT’S YOUR PRESENT FUEL STATUS ON THAT AIRCRAFT?
    P: We’re down to about thirty minutes.
    T: 58 NOVEMBER. THE DECISION WILL BE NO FUEL FOR THAT AIRCRAFT. NO STARTER. RUN IT OUT, ANY WAY YOU WANT IT. PASSENGERS, IF YOU ARE LISTENING—THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE IN THIS AIRCRAFT IS TO DEPART THE AIRCRAFT, TO DEPART THE AIRCRAFT.
    (Long Pause)
    T: 58 NOVEMBER?
    P: Yeah.
    T: DID SOMEONE DEPLANE FROM YOUR AIRCRAFT?
    P: That’s affirmative. The copilot.
    (Pause)
    T: 58 NOVEMBER?
    P: (Muffled reply) Yes
    7
    T: THE COPILOT IS IN THE CAR AND WILL NOT RETURN TO THE AIRCRAFT. HE WILL NOT RETURN TO THE AIRCRAFT.
    0928.25
    0931.35
    T: 58 NOVEMBER?
    0933.15
    _______________________________________
    End of downloaded dox in attachment
  32. Andy Downs Member

    I wish there was a way to upload the actual tapes I have been able to digitize so everyone could hear the actual tones used by the FBI with my dad (58November)
  33. Anonymous Member

    I just want to say that I am so sorry this happened.
  34. Andy Downs Member

    I appreciate that more than you know.
    I have been in aviation for more than 20 years.What scares me is the attitudes law enforcement takes with the captain of a plane have not changed since my father's hijacking.
    One of 2 recent events is American Flt 24 in JFK. You can hear the crew begging for information that is not being given. Law enforcement today thinks a captain is unqualified to handle these situations. The stat they do not like to admit is that not a single innocent person has ever been killed due to the decision a captain made during a crisis like this. Law enforcement has the opposite track record.

    You can hear the AA24 ATC tapes on this You can hear the exchange between ATC and the AA24 Flight on this YouTube Link.
  35. Andy Downs Member

    I forgot I had uploaded to YouTube an old NBC report that play a portion of the tapes of the FBI talking to my dad (58November).
    Here is the link
  36. Andy Downs Member

    This is an interview I shot for the documentary 58November. It has attorney Jim Neal, who defended the surviving hijacker Bobby Wayne Wallace. It also has Judge Gil Merritt, who was one of my mom's attorney's commenting as well.
  37. Andy Downs Member

    This is an imgur url I set up with docs and crime scene pictures photos. You may not want to open this if you have kids around. This site does contain the actual crime scene photos of my father, Susan Giffe and George Giffe dead in the plane after the FBI raid. It also contains FBI Rules of engagement the FBI was supposed to follow during hijackings. These rules were in effect up until 9/11.
    http://imgur.com/a/t3vU3
  38. Anonymous Member

    Odds are people aren't thinking. That's someone else's job. But their will be a training and everyone will get a certificate stating he or she is a fully qualified crisis responder, or something like that. The course will include instructions to always do X but to remember that you should never do X. If a critical incident occurs and something goes horribly wrong, the organization will round up either those who did X or those who failed to do X. These people will be reprimanded and sent for re-training.
  39. Anonymous Member

    Bobby Wayne Wallace: Winner winner chicken dinner!
  40. Anonymous Member

    Anyone who happens to have skills look at this? Is it safe to open?

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