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Declaration of Larry Brennan

Discussion in 'Translation and Text Composition Projects' started by indeedindeed, May 21, 2008.

  1. LarryBren Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    You understand that correctly. That is exactly what the undated resignations were for. It was the leaders in the Sea Org and not the corporate officers, directors or trustees that actually controlled all the corporations. The undated resignations were supposed to be secret from anyone else. It was just one way those in power controlled the legal corporate officials. To the outside world the local corporate officers/directors were in control as that is how we made it appear to be. But in reality they could be removed at the whim of the powers that be in the sea org (and the GO before that).

    They were told by the Sea Org what contracts to sign, what legal actions to take, etc. Often times the corporate directors were not even allowed to read the contracts they were made to sign nor the board minutes prepared for them. If they had to vote on something, they were told exactly how to vote and they either complied or were removed.

    For anyone who doesn't mind reading a wall of text, below is a link to a posting I did over a year and a half ago on ars that explains the real power in scientology. I post there as "SME". This shows what really ran scientology instead of those corporate officers/directors referred to above:

    The Real Power in Scientology - DM's Lies - alt.religion.scientology | Google Groups
  2. Mumble Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Hej guys,

    just wanted to say sorry that I didn't continue,
    as I tried to start this translation.
    Time wasn't on my side and I think,
    my skills are to low for this.
  3. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    @mumble

    no need to say sorry at all, you got this whole thing rolling by doing the first steps and starting it! Without you this would have taken much longer, if it had happened at all. If you got any suggestions for change regarding the first draft, just go ahead and mention them. Even if there is no concrete proposal, as to what should be changed, only "this doesn't sound right" or "this is incorrect german imho", "this sounds awkward", "an "l" is missing here", "from the original I understood it, that... but when reading the translation I rather get the impression that..." etc. Any and all input is welcome. This holds also true for anyone else reading this.

    @ LarryBren

    Nice, I will read that.
  4. Fleischmann Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    @Larry: Thanks for clarifying that. The more you know..:)

    @Indeedindeed: Thanks for your efforts on correcting this. I know my brain is sometimes a bit weird when it comes to expressing things properly, thus leading to the odd, err, 'unconventional' figure of speech..or something like that. ;)
  5. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Some proposals for change in the current draft to make it more readable and to get rid of brackets. The parts I refer to are marked with italics, afterwards I describe what is my proposal and why I think it's useful. This post will probably be expanded at a later time. All comments on these proposals are welcome. As a reminder, the current draft is in two posts at page two, starting at #37

    Any discussions of these proposals are welcome as are new proposals.

    "Der Kürze halber" instead of "Um der Kürze willen" as I think it sounds less awkward.

    "die die organisierte Scientology untersucht" instead of "die gegen die organisierte Scientology ermittelt" as it is afaik closer to the original of "investigating", but not sure about that.

    "einschließlich der Möglichkeit körperlicher Gewaltanwendung gegen meine Person" instead of the part in italics because there is no "they" in the original, but it is just mentioned as something that might happen.

    in 5:

    "Entwickeln" instead of "entwickeln", because of "zum".
    "und die Gründe dafür" instead of "und warum diese unternommen wurden", as it sounds less awkward and has the same meaning.
    Also "verfüge" instead of "besitze", because "über ... besitze" is nonsense, while "über ... verfüge" is not.
    "sonst jemand" instead of "irgendjemand anders", because it sounds less awkward and has the same meaning. So the new version would look like this:

    "Ich glaube, dass ich über mehr Wissen über die Aktionen, die von der organisierten Scientology zum Entwickeln einer religiösen Tarnung unternommen wurden, und die Gründe dafür, verfüge als sonst jemand, der sich derzeit in der organisierten Scientology befindet."

    in 6 (iii)

    My proposal is to skip "(„Orgs“ in Deutschland - Anm. d. Übers.)" because I think they call themselves Churches in Germany as well. But not sure of that.

    proposal to take out the remark in brackets, because this is just a translation of the declaration, so if there is no clear german equivalent it's not a problem because the names of these groups are in english.

    proposal: "vom Guardian's Office übernommen wurden". past tense, because the GO doesn't exist anymore and in the original it says: "ThiswasanunusualactioninthatnormallysuchmatterswouldbehandledbytheGuardiansOffice". Also "normalerweise vom Guardian's Office gehandhabt wurden" as I think "to handle" should be translated as "handhaben" in a scientologic context. So the new version would look like this:

    "Dies war eine insofern unübliche Aktion, als dass solche Angelegenheiten normalerweise vom Guardian’s Office gehandhabt wurden, aber jetzt von einem Team unter der „Commodores Messenger Organization“ („CMO“) in Verbindung mit uns im Guardian’s Office bearbeitet wurden."

    "aber Miscavige war anderer Meinung." because it is closer to the original "disagreed" and it doesn't suggest some sort of democratic process in which Miscavige had one vote just like everyone else.

    in 6 iv

    proposal: "(iv) Im Juli 1981 meldete ich mich im Hauptquartier der organisierten Scientology in Los Angeles, nachdem das Guardian’s Office von der CMO übernommen worden war, welches im Geheimen sowohl von Hubbard als auch von Miscavige nach Hubbards Anordnungen geführt wurde."

    reason: "sowohl von Hubbard als auch von Miscavige" sounds more natural than "von sowohl Hubbard als auch Miscavige".

    In 6 v:

    proposal: "öffentlichen Selbstdarstellung" instead of "Promotion" as "Promotion" is something else in german, meaning an educational degree.
  6. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    So these are proposals for the first six points. If there's no reaction to them within the next two weeks I'll implement them in the draft. Any discussion or additional proposals are of course welcome.


    I'll continue to make suggestions starting with 7.

    update: proposals implemented as two weeks have passed.
  7. Fleischmann Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    This looks fine so far. Sterling work, indeedindeed. :)
  8. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Some proposals for change in the current draft to make it more readable and to get rid of brackets. The parts I refer to are often marked with italics, afterwards I describe what is my proposal and why I think it's useful. This post will probably be expanded at a later time. All comments on these proposals are welcome. As a reminder, the current draft is in two posts at page two, starting at #37

    Any discussions of these proposals are welcome as are new proposals.

    first of all, proposal for what to put before 7.: "RELIGIÖSE TARNUNG IN DER CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY"

    reason: such a sub-title is in the original, but not in the current draft.

    proposal: "in den höchsten mit rechtlichen Angelegenheiten befassten Organen der organisierten Scientology" instead of "in den höchsten rechtlichen Organen der organisierten Scientology"

    reason: I don't know whether the "Organe" are "rechtlich" and not rather the topic they deal with.

    proposal as to the second part marked with italics: "hatte ich mit hunderten von Rechtsangelegenheiten betreffend die Scientology-Organisationen zu tun, die direkt oder indirekt mit dem Benutzen religiöser Tarnung zu tun hatten, mit dem Ziel ein vorhandenes oder potentielles rechtliches oder PR Problem für besagte Organisationen zu handhaben. Entweder nahm ich mich selbst dieser Angelegenheiten an oder ich beaufsichtigte sie."

    reasons: I believe the "which" is refering to "legal matters" and not to "organizations", because if it refered to "organizations" the expression "said organizations" would be a little strange imho, because why would one want to stress that they only dealt with their own matters, it makes more sense to assume he is talking about matters involving religious cloaking throughout Scientology, concerning whichever organization has an issue involving religious cloaking at the moment. I also added "Benutzen religiöser Tarnung", because it says "using religious cloaking" in the original and not just "religious cloaking". I also split the original sentence in two for the sake of clarity. Also, "zu handhaben", because I believe "handhaben" is correct german scientologeese for "to handle". I also left out "zu helfen" because there is no "help" in the original. Also got rid of the brackets, because "beaufsichtigen" is ok for supervising.

    proposals: "aus folgenden Bereichen ein:" instead of "ein, die [mit folgendem zu tun] haben:", because it sounds less awkward imho.

    "Ausübung" instead of "Praktisieren", because it sounds a little better in my opinion and I think is also the correct formal expression in german for "practice of medicine", but not sure about this. So the new version would look like this:

    "Dies schloß ein weites Spektrum an Rechtsangelegenheiten aus folgenden Bereichen ein: Steuern, Einwanderung, Lizenzvergaben, potentielle Probleme mit Firmenkonzepten, Ausübung von Medizin oder Psychologie, Verkauf von Dienstleistungen, Arbeitsgesetze und viele mehr. "

    proposal: "Dies betrifft Zeiten im Guardian's Office, als auch später in der Spezialeinheit und in meiner Position als WDC X."

    reason: "meine Zeiten" means his entire time there, while "times" is less specific, so I suggest a replacement with "Zeiten", also "betrifft" instead of "bezieht mit ein", because I believe it's closer to "involves" -not "includes". I also replaced "von meiner Position aus" with "in meiner Position", even if it's less verbatim it has the same meaning here and sounds a little better.

    proposal and reason: "Hubbards Doktrinen anzuwenden" instead of just "Hubbards Doktrinen", because currently a translation for "apply" is missing.

    proposal: "ohne dass Scientology als Religion angesehen wäre" instead of "ohne dass Scientology eine Religion wäre".

    reason: "if it were not considered a religion" in the original text.

    I also suggest removing the brackets around "eine". It's ok as a translation.

    proposal: "die andernfalls möglicherweise hätten befolgt werden müssen"

    reason: "that might otherwise have to be followed"

    proposal: "Bei der Entwicklung" instead of "In der Entwicklung". ""Vorteile"" instead of "Vorteile"

    reasons: "benefits" is in quotation marks in the original, "in developing ... the following were considered ... benefits" is a statement about the development, not a statement of what was part of the development, that's why "in" shouldn't be used in the german version here imho.

    proposal: "aber die nachfolgenden werden einfach als einige von ihnen aufgezählt:"

    reasons: "einfach" due to "simply" and "aufgezählt" instead of "aufgelistet", because it is more commonly used.

    "angestellte Mitarbeiter", because it sounds more natural and "staff" is not a german word. I also think both means the same.

    proposal: "angewendet" instead of "durchgesetzt"
    reason: news version is closer to "applied" in the original

    proposal: "Ethikzustände", as "conditions" translates to "Zustände" rather than "Strafen", on the other hand one may "do conditions" iirc, so maybe someone with knowledge of german sci speak may have an answer to this.

    proposal: ",die Rehabilitation Project Force und so weiter", due to "heRehabilitationProjectForceandthelike". Another possible version would be "und Ähnliches"

    proposal: amend with "wären gestattet" at the end, because of "would be allowed" in the original. Also "der" instead of "über die" as it sounds less awkward.

    proposals: "nicht-angestellten Scientologen" instead of "öffentlichen Scientologen", because -at least afaik- there is no german expression similar to "public Scientologists" as opposed to "staff members".

    "Zuständigkeitsbereich" instead of "Eingriffsbereich" as it is a more common word.

    "betrachtet werden würde" instead of "betrachten würde", because it was a hope for the future after these measures would be enacted.

    proposals and reasons: "durch die religiöse Schrift" instead of "von der Schrift", because "scripture" is almost always religious in the english language, while "Schrift" is much more neutral in german. So I suggest we add another "religious" in front of it and then there's also no further need for the brackets around this part of the text. "einen Riegel vorzuschieben" instead of "abzuschneiden", as it is of more common usage than "abzuschneiden" when expressing statements like this one.

    proposal: "Scientology- und Dianetikdienstleistungen angebracht werden konnten"
    reason: flipped the order because it sounds a little less awkward in my opinion and while "angebracht" certainly isn't perfect for "delivered" in this context, I prefer it slightly to "ausgebracht".

    proposal: "verboten werden würden" instead of "geächtet" as it is closer to "wouldbeoutlawed" in the original.
  9. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    So these are proposals for points 7 and 8. If there's no reaction to them within the next two weeks I'll implement them in the draft. Any discussion or additional proposals are of course welcome.


    I'll continue to make suggestions starting with 9.

    update: proposals implemented as two weeks have passed.
  10. Fleischmann Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    No objections on my part, I agree with all of your proposals. :)
  11. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    that's nice to hear, so here we go again, no content yet but at least the formal structure:

    Some proposals for change in the current draft to make it more readable and to get rid of brackets. The parts I refer to are often marked with italics, afterwards I describe what is my proposal and why I think it's useful. This post will probably be expanded at a later time. All comments on these proposals are welcome. As a reminder, the current draft is in two posts at page two, starting at #37

    Any discussions of these proposals are welcome as are new proposals.

    proposal: "Auch hier wurden diese Dinge deshalb gemacht, damit Hubbards Doktrinen, die ansonsten mit den geltenden Gesetzen in Konflikt stehen würden, angewendet werden konnten."

    reasons for changes: "Again" is used as a means to emphasize the similiraty regarding the prupose of these actions if I get the text right and I think "auch hier" brings that point home more directly than "wieder". In the original it says "these things were done so that", so this "so" indicates that what follows is the reason for these things beintg done and not the way in which they were done. Thus, I changed the sentence structure at this point. I think "law of the land" means something akin to "geltende Gesetze (im Staat)" and is sort of a fixed expression, even if seldom used in the plural form.

    proposal: "wurden"

    reason: "Bücher" is plural form and so demands a verb in plural form.

    proposal: "wie beispielsweise:" instead, because "so wie" is usually used as a sort of elaborate "," at the end of an enumeration, while "such as" is more closely related to "example given" than to "as well as".

    proposal: "zum Buch "What is Scientology" von 1978 beigetragen."

    reason: I think it sounds more natural and readers will easily understand that he didn't do graphical design for the layout, but helped with the content, if not at this point, then in the next sentence.

    in 10:

    In the original it says here: "Therudimentsprogramsincludedsuchthingsasensuringthereligiouscloakingwasin;"

    I think this "in" is the same "in" as in "get your ethics in", imho it means that the principles of religious cloaking were followed in the appropriate way or that the religious cloaking was kept up. So here's my proposal: "dass die religiöse Tarnung aufrechterhalten wurde."

    proposal: " "Mutterkirche" " instead of " "mother church" "
    reason: I think this word exists in german and if there is a german word for the same thing, we should use it.

    proposal: "einhergingen", I think "mitgingen" is a bit incorrect and in any event, "einhergingen" is used more often.

    not sure, but I slightly prefer "Durchführung" instead of "Implementation".

    proposal: "dessen" instead of "darüber" as it sounds more natural and I believe "darüber" is slightly incorrect here.

    proposal: "Durchführung" instead of "Implementation" for the same reason as before.
  12. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    So these are proposals for points 9 and 10. If there's no reaction to them within the next two weeks I'll implement them in the draft. Any discussion or additional proposals are of course welcome.


    I'll continue to make suggestions starting with 11.

    update: proposals implemented as two weeks have passed.
  13. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Some proposals for change in the current draft to make it more readable and to get rid of brackets. The parts I refer to are often marked with italics, afterwards I describe what is my proposal and why I think it's useful. This post will probably be expanded at a later time. All comments on these proposals are welcome. As a reminder, the current draft is in two posts at page two, starting at #37

    Any discussions of these proposals are welcome as are new proposals.

    proposal: get rid of the brackets, content is ok.

    proposal: "Außenstehende" instead of "Außenseiter", because this isn't about social outcasts but rather about people not involved in the finer points of CoS's structure.

    proposal: "Hauptbeständen des Vermögens der organisierten Scientology" as I felt it is more closely to the original -which explicitly mentions "organized scientology" and I also fell the word "Vermögen" ought to be included when translating "assets".

    proposal: "geschützt" instead of "isoliert". While "isoliert" is closer when it comes to a verbatim translation of "insulated" imho "geschützt" gets the points across more directly and also sounds more natural.

    proposal: "Schleiern" instead of "Schleihern" as this is the correct spelling of that word.

    So, the new version would look like this: "11. Zwei der Dinge, bei denen die organisierten Scientology meinte, dass sie von größter Wichtigkeit seien, um die Einhaltung von Gesetzen, die Hubbards Doktrin zuwiderliefen, zu vermeiden, waren die religiöse Tarnung und die firmenähnliche Umstrukturierung, um es sehr schwierig, wenn nicht sogar unmöglich, für Außenstehende zu machen, jemals zu den Hauptbeständen des Vermögens der organisierten Scientology zu gelangen, und um sicherzustellen, dass die wahren Anführer der organisierten Scientology von gesetzlicher Haftung geschützt werden konnten, indem man ihre wahren Kontrollinstrumente hinter einer Myriade von Firmen- und rechtlichen Schleiern versteckte."

    proposal: "diejenigen" instead of "diejenige" as it is the correct grammatical form here.

    proposal: "Indem sie sich hinter religiöser Tarnung und Firmenschleiern versteckt, kann sie sich als Opfer darstellen,"

    reason: "Hiding behind..." uses a form -as opposed to "It hides behind"- which means that while this is happening something else happens and in this case I think its meant as explaining the way in which it happens or to put it in another way to give a reason as to why Scientology can act this way. That's why I propose "Indem" here.

    proposal: "Durch die Bezeichnung "religiöse Schriften" für Hubbards oder Miscaviges Richtlinien, welche ansonsten mißbräuchlich sind oder gegen Gesetze verstoßen."

    in detail and reason: The first change is a change in the sentence structure, because I feel this structure is more natural. The second change has been the change of time (no more "würden"), which reflects the original and the third change has been concerning the translation and context of "abusive" in the original. I don't think the original is talking about abuse of laws, but rather stating that the policies themselves were abusive. While "die ansonsten mißbräuchlch sind" isn't optimal either, I feel it is closer to the original. I also translated "policies" as "Richtlinien" and not as the more general "Doktrinen", but not exactly sure of that. I just prefer it as I think I've seen it more often in use.

    proposal: "eine rechtliche Überprüfung selbiger"

    reason: In the original it says "legal" and not "detailed" or something similar.

    proposal: "das Konzept zu stützen" instead of "dass Konzept abzustützen", because "das" is correct here, also "stützen" is used more often in such a context than "abstützen" imho.

    proposal: "dass die organisierte Scientology tatsächlich eine Religion, ihre Richtlinien "religiöse Schriften" seien, usw."

    reason: I prefer "tatsächlich" a bit to "in der Tat" as it sounds a little bit more natural, I've also used "usw." instead of "etc." because I think it's used more often and I've also moved it to the end of the sentence, because I think it refers to more such cases and not to more things that the policies allegedly were. Again, I've used "Richtlinien" instead of "Doktrinen" for the same reason as mentioned before.


    proposal: "Religions- und Rechtsexperten" instead, as it sounds more natural and I believe it's correct as well. It also fits nicely with what he stated before, even if it was in quotation marks. On the other hand they are not necessarily "experts" in the meaning of the word that they are experts in their fields. However, in the media it's used the same way these days. So, I'm not sure, but I slightly prefer it to "Bewanderte". Another possibility would be "Religions- und Rechtswissenschaftler".

    in 13:

    proposal: "dafür ausgebildeten, vorbereiteten Scientologen, denen gesagt worden war, was sie den Experten erzählen sollten,"

    reason: I think it sounds more natural and imho it accurately describes the meaning of "qualification" in this case. It also is a bit closer to the original concerning the part " who were told what to tell the scholars".



    proposal: "begeistere, positive Berichte über das religiöse Wesen Scientologys" instead of "löbliche Berichte", because in the origional it says: "glowing reports supporting scientology’s “religious nature”" (emphasis added). "schrieben" instead of "schreiben würden", as I believe "would" is being used here in the sense of some regular -possible- occurence in the past and not as something hypothetical. Another point is, that I slightly prefer "aufbewahrt" to "aufgehoben", as it indicates that there is a specific purpose to keeping it, instead of just pointing out the fact that it's kept. I also suggest a slight change of structure to reflect more accurately in the "for" structure used in the original.

    Proposed new version: "Was diejenigen betraf, die begeisterte positive Berichte schrieben, so wurden diese Berichte zur weiteren Verwendung in rechtlichen oder PR-Angelegenheiten aufbewahrt."
  14. Ogsonofgroo Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    You folks are simply awesome for doing (and continuing to do) this project!
    Kudos & delicious caeks to you!
    And thank you LarryBren for the link to your article at ARS, I hadn't found it before, most excellent imho, I've been researching here and there and putting pieces together to sate my own curiousity and your articles put things into perspective very well, articulate and understandable *applause* It seems like so much 'smoke&mirrors' and lies, lies, lies. Be nice to see DM prosecuted for perjury too, is there a statute of limitations on lying? (don't mean ta de-rail, just wondering).
    Cheers All! (its frikken snowing outside! GAH!) :)
  15. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Caeks are appreciated and post was updated.
    Now includes proposals for points 11-13.

    If there's no reaction to them within the next four weeks -the longer time resulting from taking into consideration there's another recent part to consider which deals with 9 and 10- I'll implement them in the draft. Any discussion or additional proposals are of course welcome.

    I'll continue to make suggestions starting with 14.

    update: proposals implemented as four weeks have passed.
  16. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Some proposals for change in the current draft to make it more readable and to get rid of brackets. The parts I refer to are often marked with italics, afterwards I describe what is my proposal and why I think it's useful. This post will probably be expanded at a later time. All comments on these proposals are welcome. As a reminder, the current draft is in two posts at page two, starting at #37

    Any discussion of these proposals is welcome as are new proposals.

    proposal: ", ich glaube das war 1975,"

    reason for proposal: to make it more clear that "glaube ich" refers only to the year, it sounds more natural as well.

    So the new version would look like this, including a small change in formatting:

    proposals and reasons: "PR-Finte" instead of "Finte" because of "PR" in the original and "und dann behauptete" because "indem man... benutzte, und dann zu behaupten" is incorrect grammar. Also the "," before "und" is incorrect in this case because you can't read the rest of the sentence as an independent sentence. Also "ausgeklügelt" instead of "durchorganisiert" as I believe it is a more accurate translation of "elaborate".

    So the new version would look like this:

    proposal: "eine Befreiung hiervon als gemeinnützig, die als „Consumers Certificate of Exemption“ bekannt ist".

    reasons for proposal: "exemption" may be translated both ways, but considering that "tax exemption" means "Steuerbefreiung" and this is about taxes too I suggest "Befreiung". I also moved "als gemeinnützig" as it refers to a property of the exempted institution and not of the "Consumers Certificate of Exemption".

    proposal: "das Vorhandensein einer" instead of "eine".

    reason: I think it sounds a little more correct that way and while it's certainly more formal this doesn't have to be a bad thing in an affidavit.

    I think this version isn't perfect either, but I think it's better:

    proposal: Get rid of the "zu" because it's grammatically incorrect.

    A separation between two paragraphs is missing here from the original. So the new version would look like this:

    proposals and reasons: "Nachdem ich ein Programm verfasste, um dort die richtigen Rechtsgrundlagen für die organisierte Scientology einzurichten" instead of "Nachdem ich ein Programm verfasste, um in die richtigen Rechtsansätze für die organisierte Scientology dort hineinzukommen" because it sounds more natural IMO, because "rudiments" can also be translated as "Grundlagen" which is more like "basics" instead of "Ansätze" which means "approaches". "diese Sache zu handhaben." instead of "dieses zu übernehmen" as "handle" in a scientologic context almost always means "handhaben" and "handhaben" isn't wrong in other contexts too.

    So the new version would look like this:

    proposal and reason: "Expertengutachten" instead of "Expertenmeinungen" because there is no "the" in the original and I believe "Epertengutachten" is a more accurate translation of "expert opinions" than "Expertenmeinungen" as opinion refers to a document in this case and not just to any opinion held by an expert if I'm not mistaken.

    proposal and reason: "stellte" instead of "tätigte", because I think it's a more correct translation for "applied" here.

    rest of this post was written after post #57.

    in 15:

    proposal and reason: "ein religiöser Anstrich", because I think it sounds a little more natural compared to the current version, even if not much.

    proposals and reasons: "dass" instead of "[dass]", because content is ok. "so taten, als ob" instead of "vortäuschten, dass", because I think it reads a little more fluent that way even if it's a bit less formal, which may be a disadvantage. Also "sei" instead of "war", because it's what they were pretending it to be like, not what it actually was like. So the new version would look like this:

    in 16:

    proposal and reason: "mit" instead of "unter", because of "using religious cloaking" in the original.

    proposal and reason: "Begründungen" instead of "Bedeutungen", because I think "legal significances" means legal reasons, i.e. explaining why it was supposedly legally justified.

    proposals and reasons: get rid of "dabei", because while being practical with regards to meaning it's not in the original. "benutzen" instead of "nutzen", this suggests that it was also to be used for this purpose as is shown by the quote that follows.

    proposal: "und dazu gehört ein Bezirk und ein SMI-Vertrag" as it appears to be closer to the original: "One sells the starter package and what goes along with it is a district and SMI contract."
    I think this is an incorrect translation as these two parts are separate in the original:
    "The money which is received is from the starter package and the money
    which will be received is from the percentage which will be paid to SMI."

    So he's talking about two kinds of money coming from two different sources and not about two kinds of money coming from one source as is the case with the current translation.

    Proposal:
    proposal and reason: "zu blockieren, nur weil man nicht sagen kann:" because it's closer to the original in that the position of "just" is in the second part of the sentence.

    this has all the right elements, but I think it needs some changes due to readability and some other issues -such as "Hausnummer" for "block" or the lack of a translation for "franchise"- so here's my proposal:

    proposal: "der" instead of "wer" as it sounds more natural.

    proposals and reason: Take "[durch]" out of the text, because it sounds more natural that way and use "kauft" instead of "am Kaufen ist", which is very colloquial german.

    proposals and reasons: "deswegen und dadurch" instead of "dabei und dadurch", because "deswegen" is imho a better translation of "therefore". Also, "was wir erreichen wollen" instead of "was wir versuchen zu tun" for while the current version is closer in a verbatim mode of translation the new suggestion sounds more natural and direct.

    proposal: "Schaffung" instead of "Schöpfung" as it's a more profane form of creation Hubbard is talking about at this point.

    proposal: "auch nur eine verdammte Sache" instead of "eine verdammte Sache" as it stresses the failure to sell even a single thing in a way that sounds more natural. So, while the current version is certainly ok I prefer that one.

    proposal: "damit" instead of "darin" because it sounds more natural.

    proposal and reasons: "um Vorteile zu gewinnen und Geld zu verdienen." instead of "um Geld zu machen und Vorteile zu gewinnen." because it's in the other order in the original and "to make money" translates to "Geld zu verdienen".

    proposal: "diesen "Missionen" Millionen Dollar abnehmen" as it sounds more natural.

    in 17:

    proposals: take the brackets away and use "durch" instead of "von", because it's "by" in both cases in the original.

    proposal: take the brackets away, because content is ok.
  17. Fleischmann Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Thanks for putting up with my awkward way of writing, indeedindeed. I'd accept all your proposals. :)
  18. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    So these are proposals for points 14 to 17. If there's no reaction to them within the next two weeks I'll implement them in the draft. Any discussion or additional proposals are of course welcome.

    I'll continue to make suggestions starting with 18.

    update: proposals implemented as two weeks have passed.
  19. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Some proposals for change in the current draft to make it more readable and to get rid of brackets. The parts I refer to are often marked with italics, afterwards I describe what is my proposal and why I think it's useful. This post will probably be expanded at a later time. All comments on these proposals are welcome. As a reminder, the current draft is in two posts at page two, starting at #37

    Any discussion of these proposals is welcome as are new proposals.

    Just reiterating here that there is still a need for a unified approach with regards to all the stuff containing "corporate" or "corporate sortout". At the moment I tend to using "corporate sortout" throughout the text and to translate "corporate" with either "Struktur-" or "Firma-".

    in 18:

    proposal and reason: "die in Kürze verfasst werden soll und sich allein mit Miscaviges Meineinden befassen wird." instead of the part marked in italics, because it sounds more natural.

    proposal: "die Leitung der organisierten Scientology innehatte"
    reason: same statement, but shorter and with some improvement regarding readability.

    proposal: "Guardians Office", due to spelling

    proposal and reason: "vor" instead of "von" as it makes more sense, because the assets did not belong to the potential litigants and governments ("von") but were to be protected of ("vor") them.

    proposal and reason: "die insgeheim die organisierte Scientology führten" instead of "die im Geheimen die Anführer der organisierten Scientology waren" as it resembles the original structure more closely - "those secretly running organized scientology" and not "those who secretly were the leaders of organized scientology." - and it increases readability too.

    in 19:

    proposal: add to the italic part "innerhalb der geistlichen Hierarchie", because it's not part of the current version, but it's part of the original: "within the ecclesiastical hierarchy"

    proposal: "Da sie in solchen Dingen unerfahren wahren, nahmen sie rechtliche Beratung in Anspruch"

    reasons: I think "in solchen Dingen" is closer to the original: "such matters" and I also think that "to retain legal counsel" means to get legal expertise and not merely that those who "retain legal counsel" sit together and discuss legal aspects, even though "Rechtsberatungen" may imply more than that. While I'm not hundred percent sure of this, I still prefer the version proposed above.

    proposals: "darum ging" instead of "die Sache war" and "soweit es das betrifft" because I think those sound more natural and -at least in the second case- are also closer to the original.

    proposal: "bin mir aber der Ereignisse", due to grammar. Same holds true at a later point, when this part is quoted again.

    proposals and reasons: "offensichtliche Falschaussagen" instead of "offensichtliche Lügen", because in the original it says that they are "blatently false" and not that they are "blatent lies" even if it pretty much makes no difference. It's not really an important change, but I do feel it's a bit more true to the original version. Also "eingegangen werden wird" instead of "eingegangen wird", due to grammatical proximity to the original: "will be covered".

    in 20:
    proposals: "weil in Wahrheit Hubbard die Führung der organisierten Scientology innehatte" instead of "weil Hubbard wirklich die Führung der organisierten Scientology innehatte", because imho it's more closer to the original "Hubbard really was the one". Also "Begründung" unstead of "Bedeutung", even if it's less of a verbatim translation, it's a more natural way to express the meaning of the original.

    proposal: "Rücktrittsschreiben" instead of "Rücktritte" as it's a little more concrete and "Vorstandsmitgliedern" instead of "Gremienmitgliedern" as it's a closer translation of "board".
  20. Krautfag Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Hm, this thread has eluded me so far.

    Noch Gegenleser/Übersetzer/sonstige Nörgler benötigt?
  21. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    If you want to, take a look at the draft in posts #37 and #38. If you find anything you don't like just mention it here. Deutsch oder englisch, doesn't matter. Auch egal, ob schlechtes deutsch vorliegt oder bad translation. Currently it would be best to look at the stuff starting from 18. Because the stuff before that has already been looked at once. Another possibility would be to take a look at the proposals made five posts ago.
  22. Krautfag Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Okies, ich geh das heute abend mal alles in Ruhe durch und schreib meine 5 Cents dazu auf
  23. Krautfag Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    I set the whole thing up on writeboard

    Writeboard: Enter the password

    Please pm me for the password, if interested.
  24. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    thanks, PM with relevant points on this topic is underway.
  25. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    So these -#59- are proposals for points 18 to 20. If there's no reaction to them within the next two weeks I'll implement them in the draft. Any discussion or additional proposals are of course welcome.

    I'll continue to make suggestions starting with 21.

    update: proposals implemented as two weeks have passed.
  26. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Some proposals for change in the current draft to make it more readable and to get rid of brackets. The parts I refer to are often marked with italics, afterwards I describe what is my proposal and why I think it's useful. This post will probably be expanded at a later time. All comments on these proposals are welcome. As a reminder, the current draft is in two posts at page two, starting at #37

    Any discussion of these proposals is welcome as are new proposals.

    Just reiterating here that there is still a need for a unified approach with regards to all the stuff containing "corporate" or "corporate sortout". At the moment I tend to using "corporate sortout" throughout the text and to translate "corporate" with either "Struktur-" or "Firma-".

    proposals up to and including 27:

    proposal: "Dieses schließt nun CMO Int/WDC, das Executive Director Int's („ED Int“) Office und OSA mit ein;" because there's no article in the original.

    proposal: "werden" instead of "wurden", because of present tense in the original.

    suggestions: "um" instead of "[um]" as the brackets are unnecessary. "Waren- und Dienstleistungszeichen" instead of "Warenzeichen [trademarks und service marks]" in order to be consistent with (v). "einem Risiko" instead of "einer Gefahr" as it's a closer translation to the original.

    proposal implementing these changes: "(vi) Die Church of Spiritual Technology ("CST") [Übersetzung: Kirche der spirituellen Technologie] wird geschaffen, um schließlich das meiste von Hubbards Vermögen zu erhalten, die Rechte an seinen Copyrights usw und um an der "Erhaltung" der Tech zu arbeiten. Sehr wichtig ist, dass CST für 100$ alle Rechte an den Waren- und Dienstleistungszeichen von RTC kaufen kann, wenn diese jemals bei RTC einem Risiko ausgesetzt sein sollten. Falls nötig, könnte CST die Kirchen selbst lizensieren oder eine andere Körperschaft wie RTC ins Leben rufen und lizensieren;

    One sentence is missing here compared to the original.

    proposal: Add "Das soll nichts mit dem Management der "Kirche" zu tun haben."

    proposals: "hauptsächlich" instead of "zumeist" as "mostly" refers to their main area of activity and not what they are doing most of the time, even if that's more or less the same and "Vertrieb" instead of "Vertreibung" as it sounds more natural. While I'm not entirely sure about it, I also suggest to take away the brackets from "gemeinnützig" as it's the best translation for "non profit" that I can come up with.

    proposal: "den nicht angestellten Scientologen" instead of "der [Öffentlichkeit]", because "public" in the context of Scientology means something different. When "public" is mentioned together with "staff" it means scientologists who don't work at Scientology, so called "public scientologists".

    proposal for (xi): Take away the second brackets. While it sounds clumsy it's basically a correct translation.

    proposal for (xii): Take away the brackets, content is ok.

    proposal and reason: "tatsächlich der" instead of "der tatsächlichen", because it says "actually mirror the corporate structure" and not "mirror the actual corporate structure" in the original.

    proposal and reason: "vermittels CMO Int, dem Büro von ED Int und ähnlichem" instead of the part in italics in order to account for "the likes" at the beginning of this point in the original.

    proposal and reason: "innehaben würde" instead of "innehat" due to consistency in style.

    proposal: "amerikanische" instead of "urlrikanische" for obvious reasons.

    proposal: Get rid of the brackets in the introductory part of the quotation in 23.

    proposal: "Tarnfirma" instead of "Scheinfirma" as it sounds more natural.

    proposal: get rid of the brackets, content is an ok translation for "non-profit".

    proposal: Get rid of the brackets in (ii) as content is ok.

    proposal and reason: "mit eiserner Faust" instead of "mit einer eisernen Faust" as it sounds more natural.

    proposal: "den "Corporate Sortout"" instead of "die "Struktursanierung"" in order to keep up consistency. However, Struktursanierung is one possible translation. So, if we want to use it, we should use it everywhere. Until a decision is made, I suggest to use "corporate sortout" throughout the text whenever it is used in the original.

    proposals: "Seit Ende 1981" instead of "Angefangen mit 1981" because it says "starting in late 1981" in the original. Take out the brackets at the end because content is ok.

    proposal: take out the brackets and replace ", jedoch" by "und doch" as it sounds a little more natural. Also take away the last bracket in 23.

    proposal: "neue Firmenstruktur" instead of "[Firmenstruktur]" due to "new corporate structure" in the original.

    proposal: "nach dem "corporate sortout"" instead of "nach der [Struktursanierung ("corporate sortout")]" in order to maintain a consistent approach with regards to "corporate sortout" in ze original.

    proposal: "Wenn man davon ausgeht, was Miscavige vor Gericht gesagt hat, würde man zu dem Schluss kommen, dass er [...] irgendwie mit uns in CSI über Angelegenheiten "verhandelt" hätte, die mit Geldern für Hubbard oder mit sonst etwas zu tun haben könnten."

    reason: better sentence structure in the new version and more natural version regarding the "or anything else" part in the original.

    proposal: Take out the brackets, content is ok.

    proposals for 26: Take out all the brackets, content may not be optimal, but is ok.

    proposals: " "off line" " instead of "[off line]". While it's not a german word people should be able to understand it and there may not even be a correct translation as there are also "lines" in Scientology's lingo. Leave out the second set of brackets. May not be optimal, but should be ok.

    proposal: The entire paragraph need to move from a rather verbatim translation to a more natural appearance, so I suggest "Die Wahrheit sieht ganz anders aus" instead, which literally means "The truth looks very different", but sounds a lot better imho.

    proposal: "Während der ganzen Geschichte des GO war Hubbard stark an allen rechtlichen GO Operationen beteiligt, soweit es die Firmenstruktur betraf."

    Reason: Sounds more natural that way.

    proposal: "waren nicht nur Resultate eigener Handlungen" because it sounds more natural.

    proposal: "stattdessen" instead of "[eher]" as it's closer to "rather" as employed in the original.

    proposal: Use " "Hard Sell" Methoden" instead as it's familiar to a lot of people on the one hand, but on the other hand it's still a foreign word and should therefore have quotation marks around it.

    proposal: "waren in Wahrheit der Hintergrund" instead of "tatsächlich". While there is no certainty whether "in fact" means the same as "in Wahrheit" and "tatsächlich" certainly is ok as a translation, it sounds way more natural to put it that way.
  27. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    So these are proposals for points 21 to 27. If there's no reaction to them within the next two weeks I'll implement them in the draft. Any discussion or additional proposals are of course welcome.

    I'll continue to make suggestions starting with 28.

    update: proposals implemented as two weeks have passed.

    I changed one point though: instead of "nicht-angestellte Scientologen" as a translation for "public" I left both possibilities open, given that he's talking about films and that the "orientation movie" is shown to raw public as well. So now it's "[Öffentlichkeit/nicht-angestellten Scientologen]" instead of only the second version without brackets.
  28. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Some proposals for change in the current draft to make it more readable and to get rid of brackets. The parts I refer to are often marked with italics, afterwards I describe what is my proposal and why I think it's useful. This post is probably going to be expanded at a later time. All comments on these proposals are welcome. As a reminder, the current draft is in two posts at page two, starting at #37

    Any discussion of these proposals is as welcome as are new proposals.

    up to and including 36:

    proposal: Remove brackets. It may not be optimal and it may even be slightly misleading, but I don't see any alternative that convinces me.

    proposal: remove brackets, content is ok.

    proposals and reasons: "in Aktion treten konnten" instead of "[mit ihrer Arbeit] beginnen konnten" to emphasize readiness. "durch den Mechanismus der sofortigen Steuereinziehung aufgrund von drohendem Vermögensverlust ("jeopardy assessment")." instead of "aufgrund von Risikoeinschätzungen [betreffs Liquidität oder Zahlungswillen ("jeopardy assessment")].", because it is a much better explanation of the mechanism of "jeopardy assessment". I suggest to leave the original term in brackets in the translation, so people can look it up if they want to know more about it.

    proposal: Take the brackets out, because content is ok. Even if "stellvertretender Guardian" sounds strange it was a title that actually existed within Scientology.

    proposal: "großen" instead of "wichtigen" as it's more close to "major" in my opinion.

    proposal: "(iv)" instead of "(iV)" and "über die rechtlichen Grundlagen ("legal rudiments")" instead of "[die rechtlichen Grundlagen ["legal rudiments"]]" as it sounds more natural that way.

    proposal: "Welt-Institut" instead of "Welt Institut" as it is a single term.

    proposals: "verwendeteten dieses Institut" instead of "benutzten [dieses Institut]", because it gets rid of brackets and it's also more specific with regards to the meaning of the statement. Another proposal is to get rid of the brackets around "offiziellen" as content is ok, even if it's only implicit in the original.

    proposal: "Maße" instead of "Umfang" as it sounds a bit more natural that way.

    proposal: get rid of the brackets. May not be optimal that way, but content is certainly ok.

    proposals: get rid of the brackets and replace "sollte" by "sollte."

    proposal: ""Corporate Sortout"-Missionen" instead of "Struktursanierungs-Missionen" in order to adhere to the convention.

    proposals: leave out "eigene" as it sounds more natural and rhetorically appropriate that way and replace "besaß" with "aufbewahrte" as the grammatical form requires an action and "besitzen" is a little bit passive compared to "aufbewahren".

    proposal: remove brackets.

    proposal: "hochrangigen Mitgliedern" instead of "Leitern" in order to be closer to "top organized scientology executives" as in the original. Also, remove brackets from last sentence, content is ok.

    proposal: take out the second possible translation, because it's very unlikely to be correct given the remark in brackets.

    proposal: "Später im Jahr 1981" instead of "Im Jahr 1981" due to "later" in the original.

    proposal: "in der ASI war" instead of "ASI leitete" because of "was "in ASI"" in the original.

    proposal: "Bedeutende" instead of "[Wichtige]" as it's a bit closer to "major" in the original.

    proposal: "Aufbewahrung" instead of "Beibehaltung" as it sounds more natural. Also "all die" instead of "all jene" as it sounds a little bit more natural.

    proposal: "wöchentlich" instead of "wöchentliche" as it sounds more natural while having the same meaning.

    proposal: "den Posten des WDC X bekleidete" instead of "WDC X war" as it is more easily understandable if put that way even if it's a bit more formal, longer and less of a verbatim translation.

    proposal: "riesige" instead of "große" as it's a better transaltion for "huge"

    proposal: "[erwischen/rausschmeissen]" instead of "[rausschmeissen]" as it's a better approximation of "to bust".

    proposal: remove brackets, content is ok.

    proposal: "setzten dann das um" instead of "[verwirklichten] dann das"

    proposal: "remove first brackets as content is ok and replace "Auszubildenden" by "Lernenden" as it's more close to "students" that way.

    proposal: "lokale selbstständige Strukturen" instead of "örtliche [Unternehmenskontrolle]" as it's much more understandable that way, even if it's less of a verbatim translation of "local corporate control".

    proposal: Use "oder dergleichen" instead as it sounds more elegant and also appears to be closer to the original.

    proposal for (ix): remove all but the first two brackets. Content may not be optimal, but should be ok.

    proposals: "die organisierte Scientology" instead of "[Scientology]" because of the "it" in the original. Also leave out the second brackets, content is ok. Also take out the last brackets in 32.

    proposal: Remove brackets, content is ok.

    proposal: "der religiösen Tarnung" instead of "religiöser Tarnung" as it's closer to the original imho, in which the article propably is meant to refer to both parts.

    proposal: Remove brackets in 35 (i), content is ok. Same with 35 (ii) even if content may not be optimal.

    proposal: "hinter religiöser Tarnung versteckt liegt, ist" as it sounds more fluent that way. Also remove brackets in 36, content ought to be ok.
  29. Ann O'Nymous Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Schön.
  30. Anon-007 Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    Thank you for your insightful and valuable contribution to this thread.
  31. indeedindeed Member

    Re: Declaration of Larry Brennan

    So these - #68 - are proposals for points 28 to 36. If there's no reaction to them within the next two weeks I'll implement them in the draft. Any discussion or additional proposals are of course welcome.

    update: proposals implemented as two weeks have passed. That is all. The unofficial translation is now complete. Of course, if there are any proposals on how to improve it, they're welcome and it goes without saying that you can also do your own translation if you like.

    See http://forums.whyweprotest.net/44-german/declaration-larry-brennan-15114/2/#post529227
    for the first of two posts which contain the entire translation. I've added an explanation of the significance of this text to the OP.

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