DA: "Proof"

Discussion in 'Think Tank' started by Anonymous316, Feb 21, 2008.

  1. Anonymous316 Member

    DA: "Proof"

    [DA]I've been in Scientology for 5 years now and I've never heard of any of this "Xenu Space Warlord" business. I've never heard anyone, members or otherwise, say a thing about it. Now you come along and tell me that I'm supposed to believe that my church seniors actually believe this, and not only that but that my church actually kills people? How am I supposed to know you're not just making this up? How am I supposed to trust anything you tell me if you won't even show me your face? Why should I even listen to your nonsense?[/DA]

    Might not be the best of arguments, but go at it with what you will.
  2. Tom Socrates Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    In RTC v. Lerma, the Church of Scientology took Arnie Lerma to court over copyright infringement because Lerma posted the Xenu story on the internet. The RTC claimed, in a court of law, under penalty of perjury, that the Xenu story was official church doctrine. This is a matter of public record. After the trial ended (and the RTC lost), they tried to have the court records sealed, so the Xenu story would remain hidden.

    Furthermore, there are copies of the Xenu story told by Hubbard and in Hubbard's own handwriting in circulation.

    Not that any of this matters, though, because you're free to believe what you want.
  3. Anonproto Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    also court records of Church of Scientology International v. Fishman and Geertz - aka "the Fishman affidavit"

    it's in the court records, if Scientology wanted to question these materials they had their chance to question, discredit them, and have them removed as evidence... the "Church of Religious Technology / Religious Technology Center" failed on these points
  4. Anonproto Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    the "DA" exercises are good - keep repeating them as you come up with arguments you see in the field and we can help people by providing the appropriate responses
  5. WMAnon Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    We don't expect you to believe any of this at face value, especially when you can't look us in the eye. Go home and research it yourself. We haven't based our statements on conjecture or rumor, we're basing it on actual court documents. If you don't trust the electronic copies of these documents, you can call up the courts involved and ask them to send you a paper copy directly. We aren't asking you to blindly believe our assertions, we want you to look into this and find the truth for yourself. Operation Freakout is an excellent place to start your search, as the treatment of Paulette Cooper is well documented. From there you may want to look into Operation Snow White, which resulted in several convictions of key members of the CoS, including L.Ron Hubbard's wife. Again, I don't expect you to believe what I'm saying, go directly to the official documents and read them for yourself. is the most comprehensive site on the deaths associated with Scientology, you may want to look there if you doubt that the CoS could be accused of such things. There is a certain amount of opinion on the main page, but the individual sites will take you to whatever official documentation exists for each case.

    You have the right to look this information up for yourself. Anyone who would take that right away from you has something to hide.
  6. seebs Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"



    The CoS runs the .com and .org variants.

    I know it's normally no big deal to guess wrong on a TLD, but this is a case where the details are absolutely crucial. We do not get a second chance to convince people that we know what we're talking about.
  7. WMAnon Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"


    This is why we do this.
  8. seebs Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    And the fact that you're glad to get the detail right, rather than insulted, is why we win and they lose.

  9. joeybsmash Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    Embracing your failures and learning from them is always win.
  10. lermanet_com Member

  11. RandomTexfag Member

  12. lermanet_com Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    Rubbish, P.K.B.

    Did you even look at the page?

    "On April 14, 1993, Fishman filed in the open court file what has come to be known as the Fishman Affidavit, to which were attached 69 pages of what the Religious Technology Center ("RTC") describes as various Advanced Technology works, specifically levels OT-I through OT-VII documents. Plaintiff claims that these documents are protected from both unauthorized use and unauthorized disclosure under the copyright laws of the United States and under trade secret laws, respectively.

    In California, the RTC moved to seal the Fishman affidavit, arguing that the attached AT documents were trade secrets. That motion was denied and the Ninth Circuit upheld the district court's decision not to seal the file. Church of Scientology Int'l v Fishman, 35 F.3d 570 (9th Cir. 1994). The case was remanded for further proceedings and the district court again declined to seal the file, which remained unsealed until August 15, 1995.

    Defendant Arnaldo Lerma, another former Scientologist, obtained a copy of the Fishman affidavit and the attached AT documents. Lerma admits that on July 31 and August 1, 1995, he published the AT documents on the Internet through defendant Digital Gateway Systems ("DGS"), an internet service provider. RTC, which regularly scans the Internet, discovered the publication of documents and on August 11, 1995, warned Lerma to return the AT documents and not publish them any further. After Lerma refused to cooperate, RTC obtained a Temporary Restraining Order prohibiting Lerma from any further publication of the documents and a seizure warrant which authorized the United States Marshal to seize Lerma's personal computer, floppy disks and any copies of the copyrighted works of L. Ron Hubbard, the author of the AT documents.

    During the same time period, on or about August 5 or 6, 1995, Lerma sent a hard copy of the Fishman Affidavit and AT attachments to Richard Leiby, an investigative reporter for the Washington Post. On August 12, 1995, counsel for RTC discovered this disclosure and approached the Post, which was told that the Fishman affidavit might be stolen. In response to the RTC's representations, The Post returned the actual copy which Lerma had given it. However, the Post had by then learned that a copy of the same Fishman affidavit was available in the open court file in the United States District Court for the Central District of California. On August 14, 1995, The Post sent Kathryn Wexler, a news aide stationed in California, to that court to obtain a copy for Wexler, who then mailed it Washington. Although it is undisputed that RTC staff members had been checking that file out and holding it all day to prevent anyone from seeing it, the file was not sealed and obviously was available, upon request, to any member of the public who wished to see it." (end of Excerpt of Judge Brinkema's 5 Dec 95 Opinion)

    You characterized a United Stated federal Judge's written opinion, as "pointless, un-citable rhetoric" and I contend

    you are the one providing "pointless, un-citable rhetoric"

    In Judge Brinkema's FINAL Opinion, (also on that same unread by thee, page, and do you still contend that THIS is more "Pointless uncitable rhetoric" ??) Scientology did not think so they went NUTZ and tried to get a Federal Judges Memorandum Opinion SEALED! ( and they did for 30 hours)

    " Scientologists believe that most human problems can be traced to lingering spirits of an extraterrestrial people massacred by their ruler, Xenu, over 75 million years ago. These spirits attach themselves by "clusters" to individuals in the contemporary world, causing spiritual harm and negatively influencing the lives of their hosts ". USDJ Judge Leonie Brinkema More HERE 4 Oct 96 Memorandum Opinion, RTC vs Lerma,
  13. RandomTexfag Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    Very well, conceded.

    I read "The best place to start for proof is South Park..." and assumed that the link would take me to nothing more than a recording of the South Park episode.

    To give a bit more clarity, however. You would do well to actually tell us what's at the link, rather than let us assume. Because Anon assumes based on post content.
  14. lermanet_com Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    A purpose of a link is to save keystrokes, if as you claim, you doubted my assertion, one might reasonably assume you would look at the link... to see if that made the claim make more sense. I accept your concession and add my own apology for not having the time to type and paste the contents of every page I cite..
  15. WMAnon Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    While the judge's opinion is a good place to start, it is still an opinion. Unless you can quote even a portion of the OTIII text as it appears in the evidence in that case, it's not very compelling for someone who (as the OP) is already hostile towards the Xenu idea.

    This page[/url:3m88yio6], specifically the photocopied sheets, provides a much more direct answer.
  16. Anonymous Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    THREAD NECROMANCY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  17. j0eg0d Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    Conclusively ... us linking-to or pointing out facts-of, will still be regarded as lies. Even the recording of Hubbard talking about Xenu is denied as a fake by your Scientology handlers.

    Take an honest look at your belief system. The problem with most "truths" is that once you've accepted it - you stop questioning it. And the easiest way for you to find the "truth" is to never stop asking questions.

    Scientology is telling you all the pro's, and their Critics are pointing out the con's. So discover for yourself the "pro's & cons" of Scientology; search online, read their books, listen to testimonials, look at the miles of court documents and government paperwork.

    Ask yourself, "Which side is telling you to ignore to the other ?" Because that's the side that doesn't want you to know the truth.
  18. j0eg0d Member

    Re: DA: "Proof"

    You might examine what-we-say as compared to how Scientology responds, because that's the most obvious give-away. For example; Look at what we said about Jett Travolta - and compare it to what Scientology told the public:

    We said Scientology hates psychiatry and is working to destroy the mental health field.
    We said that Jett Travolta obviously had Autism and that Travolta was in denial over it.
    We said that people closest to John Travolta believed that Jett was "mentally ill".
    We said that 'Dianetics' states that people with mental illnesses are looked down upon.

    Scientology spokesman Tommy Davis responded against a statement that, "Scientologists don't believe in doctors or medicine". The problem being that nobody said that. In fact the 'Church of Scientology' has yet to publicly answer any of the questions Anonymous brings up.

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